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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Can you substantiate your beliefs in any way beyond your individual experience? |
Can you substantiate your beliefs even through individual experience? I've provided two approaches: my own personal experience, and the reasoning that as people of immense influence regarding how a child is raised, there is at least some logical relation between their actions and their child's personality and conduct as an adult, and partly through simple sense. Just think about the mindset of a person who turns their child into their retirement plan; think about living the rest of your life with your parents feeling entitled to your earnings. Would that please you? Would them speaking to you as if you were still 12 please you? "Oh, but it's the Korean standard," one might protest, but that's my point: the generational gap has resulted in a change in standards. People are sick of it, even if they'll pay lipservice to it.
| atwood wrote: |
| I'm not dismissing personal responsibility, but there's a lot more to it than that. And again where do you get evidence for your generalizations? |
In part from direct personal experience (being married to a Korean and being able to meaningfully communicate with Koreans in their own language), in part through the (legitimate) generalizations about Korean society with which many on this site take issue, and in part through the actual problem which you are trying to address: that a population of people who can afford to care for their parents is not uncommonly choosing not to do so, or doing so only half-heartedly. I know how much it costs to care for a parent here, because I've done it. "Oh, we just can't afford it," is might be true on a case-by-case basis (i.e. for homes that are suffering from extreme poverty, and thus whose parents would be eligible for governmental support), but it's certainly not true as a general rule.
| atwood wrote: |
| Korea's social programs are very limited and to be eligible for at least some you have to prove that your children are unable to support you |
True.
| atwood wrote: |
| Which is why I believe this is a huge problem that will only get better until Korea can build a true safety net. |
That's probably true as well.
| atwood wrote: |
| Why does your grandparents decision to "go gracefully" seem wise to you? |
Because pissing away substantial familial and societal resources on desperately clinging to an illness-ridden life of ever-diminishing quality which is going to end soon no matter what is both selfish and futile. I'm not saying there's some specific cut-off age after which old people should just wander off into the wilderness, but once you reach the point of endlessly-escallating expenses for endlessly-deterioriating results, it's not hard to see that it's time to set your affairs in order. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Can you substantiate your beliefs in any way beyond your individual experience? |
Can you substantiate your beliefs [b]even through individual experience?[/b] I've provided two approaches: my own personal experience, and the reasoning that as people of immense influence regarding how a child is raised, there is at least some logical relation between their actions and their child's personality and conduct as an adult, and partly through simple sense. Just think about the mindset of a person who turns their child into their retirement plan; think about living the rest of your life with your parents feeling entitled to your earnings. Would that please you? Would them speaking to you as if you were still 12 please you? "Oh, but it's the Korean standard," one might protest, but that's my point: the generational gap has resulted in a change in standards. People are sick of it, even if they'll pay lipservice to it.
| atwood wrote: |
| I'm not dismissing personal responsibility, but there's a lot more to it than that. And again where do you get evidence for your generalizations? |
In part from direct personal experience (being married to a Korean and being able to meaningfully communicate with Koreans in their own language), in part through the (legitimate) generalizations about Korean society with which many on this site take issue, and in part through the actual problem which you are trying to address: that a population of people who can afford to care for their parents is not uncommonly choosing not to do so, or doing so only half-heartedly. I know how much it costs to care for a parent here, because I've done it. "Oh, we just can't afford it," is might be true on a case-by-case basis (i.e. for homes that are suffering from extreme poverty, and thus whose parents would be eligible for governmental support), but it's certainly not true as a general rule.
| atwood wrote: |
| Korea's social programs are very limited and to be eligible for at least some you have to prove that your children are unable to support you |
True.
| atwood wrote: |
| Which is why I believe this is a huge problem that will only get better until Korea can build a true safety net. |
That's probably true as well.
| atwood wrote: |
| Why does your grandparents decision to "go gracefully" seem wise to you? |
Because pissing away substantial familial and societal resources on desperately clinging to an illness-ridden life of ever-diminishing quality which is going to end soon no matter what is both selfish and futile. I'm not saying there's some specific cut-off age after which old people should just wander off into the wilderness, but once you reach the point of endlessly-escallating expenses for endlessly-deterioriating results, it's not hard to see that it's time to set your affairs in order. |
Yes, I can. I know Koreans who are taking care of their parents and are more than glad to do it. I've met older Koreans who are not the handfuls your in-law is. Maybe they're not always a day at the beach, but who is? Then there're the many shows on Korean TV that show the lives of the elderly. Maybe they're great actors, but again they come across genuinely like people one could live with.
If I were to coax a generalization out of your experience, it sounds like you know a lot of spoiled, whiney Koreans. Be that as it may, my experience more than cancels yours out.
You've cared for one parent or two? You footed all the bills? These are significant financial differences. Besides, to generalize from a sample size of one is less than convincing, especially since you've implied there were no substantial medical expenses involved. And what else were you financially responsible for at the time? A child or two in college? The devil's in the details.
Quality of life is a very subjective measure. When is it time to cut the cord? You sound as if you're willing to put anyone suffering from dementia or Alzheimer's out of their misery pronto-like.
Did your grandparents "wander off into the wilderness"? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Be that as it may, my experience more than cancels yours out. |
I can see this isn't going anywhere. I like conversing, and even being challenged, but not in bad faith. Have a nice day Atwood. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Be that as it may, my experience more than cancels yours out. |
I can see this isn't going anywhere. I like conversing, and even being challenged, but not in bad faith. Have a nice day Atwood. |
Nothing I've posted was in bad faith.
I'm guessing the questions I've asked you, which were legitimately raised by the statements you posted, are just too tough for you to answer. Were you expecting a more passive response?
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
I'm guessing the questions I've asked you, which were legitimately raised by the statements you posted, are just too tough for you to answer. |
The fact that you no doubt genuinely believe that is precisely what makes a meaningful exchange of ideas impossible. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
I'm guessing the questions I've asked you, which were legitimately raised by the statements you posted, are just too tough for you to answer. |
The fact that you no doubt genuinely believe that is precisely what makes a meaningful exchange of ideas impossible. |
You should write a book, Fox's 1001 Excuses. I bet it would go over big. |
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denverdeath
Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Strange about the discussion of filial piety. Back then, you were supposed to dump em in the woods at 70. So what is it exactly the current gen Xers are complaining about? Has the Korean government raised the bar to 72 or sth, or even made it illegal???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goryeojang |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| denverdeath wrote: |
Strange about the discussion of filial piety. Back then, you were supposed to dump em in the woods at 70. So what is it exactly the current gen Xers are complaining about? Has the Korean government raised the bar to 72 or sth, or even made it illegal???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goryeojang |
If you did a little more wiki 'research' you'll find that the reality of the custom is debatable...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The country’s elderly spent their lives assuming their children would care for them in old age and did little to prepare for retirement. But their children don’t appear to be fulfilling their end of the bargain — and now the elderly are not faring well economically. The relative poverty rate among senior citizens in South Korea is 49.3 percent, the highest of the industrialized countries. |
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/30/opinion/young-ha-kim-south-koreas-underground-seat-fight.html?src=recg&_r=0
| Quote: |
| And the suicide rate for senior citizens, surely an indicator of economic strain, is the highest among the industrialized countries |
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denverdeath
Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| denverdeath wrote: |
Strange about the discussion of filial piety. Back then, you were supposed to dump em in the woods at 70. So what is it exactly the current gen Xers are complaining about? Has the Korean government raised the bar to 72 or sth, or even made it illegal???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goryeojang |
If you did a little more wiki 'research' you'll find that the reality of the custom is debatable...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute |
You do realize that my post was a bit facetious, don't you? Anyway, you also know I was speaking about Korea, not Japan, don't you? |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| denverdeath wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| denverdeath wrote: |
Strange about the discussion of filial piety. Back then, you were supposed to dump em in the woods at 70. So what is it exactly the current gen Xers are complaining about? Has the Korean government raised the bar to 72 or sth, or even made it illegal???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goryeojang |
If you did a little more wiki 'research' you'll find that the reality of the custom is debatable...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute |
You do realize that my post was a bit facetious, don't you? Anyway, you also know I was speaking about Korea, not Japan, don't you? |
Yes, I do realize you were on about Korea. Wasn't sure if you being facetious (it's hard to tell online). But these stories are similar all over the world and there is no evidence to support the supposed 'custom'. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| They gave so much to their children with the expectation their children would return the favor. |
Raising your kids is not a "favor" but a basic duty considering you chose to bring them into the world.
Korean parents pumped out kids for selfish reasons and then try to make out it was the greatest act of human charity? |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
The fact that many of the elderly are completely insufferable is also a complicating factor. |
Before the "entitlement" epidemic arrived in the west, it was on steroids in east asia for centuries beforehand. |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
Before the "entitlement" epidemic arrived in the west. |
Alright Rush, Bill. 
| Quote: |
| Wages have fallen to a record low as a share of America’s gross domestic product. Until 1975, wages nearly always accounted for more than 50 percent of the nation’s G.D.P., but last year wages fell to a record low of 43.5 percent. Since 2001, when the wage share was 49 percent, there has been a steep slide. |
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| Some economists say it is wrong to look at just wages because other aspects of employee compensation, notably health costs, have risen. But overall employee compensation — including health and retirement benefits — has also slipped badly, falling to its lowest share of national income in more than 50 years while corporate profits have climbed to their highest share over that time. |
Most people in the America that get some kind of assistance work full time. The fact is wages are way down. and the government tries to compensate for the low wages.
Solution: The US needs to raise the minimum wage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/sunday-review/americas-productivity-climbs-but-wages-stagnate.html?_r=0
http://www.ibtimes.com/america-workers-are-more-productive-their-wages-are-flat-some-cases-lower-1393941
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| a median U.S. wage earner has seen a 5 percent growth in wages between 1979 and 2012 while boosting productivity nearly 75 percent -- what is more recent is that a college education is less valuable than it used to be. |
| Quote: |
| Annual Healthcare Costs For Family Of 4 Now At $22,030 |
Healthcare costs are over 22,000 a year! Minimum wage only brings in 15,000 a year for a full time worker.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2013/05/22/annual-healthcare-costs-surpasses-22000/ |
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