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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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 Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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"Prepare for the worst" is always good advice, but if you spend your time here expecting anyone and everyone to try and screw you, you're not going to have a good time.
OP: checking to see if your taxes have been properly filed after your school says they did it is a matter of looking at few relatively easy-to-acquire documents. I've no doubt what your ex-employer did to you was shitty and sketchy as hell, but that's still no excuse for not knowing the law.
Also, English teachers should know the difference between "weary" meaning "tired" and "wary" which means "aware of" or "careful of". |
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Rockhard
Joined: 11 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
OP: checking to see if your taxes have been properly filed after your school says they did it is a matter of looking at few relatively easy-to-acquire documents. I've no doubt what your ex-employer did to you was shitty and sketchy as hell, but that's still no excuse for not knowing the law.
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Blaming the defendent for not knowing the law is a classic deflection tactic and commonly used by American police as a way to make their job easier. Who wants to deal with subtleties when you can just lock everyone up.
In a country that respects people's rights there should be a reasonable expectation of what citizens should know.
Expecting a baby to know criminal law is unreasonable.
Expecting a tourist to read a warning sign in hangeul is unreasonable.
Expecting any citizen to know every single line of the law is unreasonable.
Expecting a foreign worker to know they must pay taxes is reasonable.
Expecting a foreign worker to check and see who's responsibility it is to file a return is reasonable.
But expecting a 23-year-old foreign worker who doesn't speak Korean to know that his workplace and the government are complicit in breaking the law is notreasonable.
And not expecting the person who sponsored the foreign worker to educate them in any way about their tax obligations is equally unreasonable.
But you continue being an apologist for a corrupt government and businesses that exploit foreign labor, cause that's helpful. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Rockhard wrote: |
But expecting a 23-year-old foreign worker who doesn't speak Korean to know that his workplace and the government are complicit in breaking the law is notreasonable.
And not expecting the person who sponsored the foreign worker to educate them in any way about their tax obligations is equally unreasonable.
But you continue being an apologist for a corrupt government and businesses that exploit foreign labor, cause that's helpful. |
And telling people to expect everyone here to screw them over is helpful?
I agreed that what your ex-employer did to you was shitty, I'm not apologizing for anyone, but it's still your own damn responsibility to understand Korea's tax laws, and to make sure they're being filed properly. All you had to do was ask for the proper documents from your employer rather than simply taking their word for it. Last time I checked, 23 years old is officially considered an adult most places in the world, whether you are one or not. |
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Rockhard
Joined: 11 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Rockhard wrote: |
But expecting a 23-year-old foreign worker who doesn't speak Korean to know that his workplace and the government are complicit in breaking the law is notreasonable.
And not expecting the person who sponsored the foreign worker to educate them in any way about their tax obligations is equally unreasonable.
But you continue being an apologist for a corrupt government and businesses that exploit foreign labor, cause that's helpful. |
And telling people to expect everyone here to screw them over is helpful?
I agreed that what your ex-employer did to you was shitty, I'm not apologizing for anyone, but it's still your own damn responsibility to understand Korea's tax laws, and to make sure they're being filed properly. All you had to do was ask for the proper documents from your employer rather than simply taking their word for it. Last time I checked, 23 years old is officially considered an adult most places in the world, whether you are one or not. |
What my ex-employer did to me was not "shitty", it is was illegal. And the tax office's participation in that illegal act is corruption. No one, especially not a foreigner, should anticipate that a country that calls itself developed breaks the law routinely. I'm from Canada. Breaking the law is just not a thing where I'm from. You could spit in your employer's face as you quit and you'll still get your final paycheck with pension contributions on it.
A real adult, no, a real citizen doesn't try to excuse away illegal behavior and shit on the powerless. A real citizen stands up against corruption and the rights on the vulnerable. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Rockhard wrote: |
What my ex-employer did to me was not "shitty", it is was illegal. And the tax office's participation in that illegal act is corruption. No one, especially not a foreigner, should anticipate that a country that calls itself developed breaks the law routinely. I'm from Canada. Breaking the law is just not a thing where I'm from. You could spit in your employer's face as you quit and you'll still get your final paycheck with pension contributions on it.
A real adult, no, a real citizen doesn't try to excuse away illegal behavior and shit on the powerless. A real citizen stands up against corruption and the rights on the vulnerable. |
Maybe I'm misunderstanding then. How did the tax office participate in an illegal act? Did they actually participate, or did they simply do nothing because the business you worked for was technically bankrupt?
If it's the latter case, then I'm sorry, but the responsibility to make sure that your taxes were being filed properly still falls to you, and it is in no way the responsibility of the tax office. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Expecting a foreign worker to know they must pay taxes is reasonable.
Expecting a foreign worker to check and see who's responsibility it is to file a return is reasonable.
But expecting a 23-year-old foreign worker who doesn't speak Korean to know that his workplace and the government are complicit in breaking the law is notreasonable.
And not expecting the person who sponsored the foreign worker to educate them in any way about their tax obligations is equally unreasonable. |
Gotta agree with this and Rockhard |
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cmxc
Joined: 19 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:44 pm Post subject: advice for newbs |
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Be careful. Many who come here hoping to exploit the opportunity end up among the most exploited.
This goes especially for those seeking easy jobs, easy money, or easy women. |
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wanderkind
Joined: 01 Jan 2012
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: An open letter to all newbies. |
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| Rockhard wrote: |
Guy comes to Korea. Tries to follow the rules.
In Korea the employer has to file tax returns for all employees. They said they did it...
Two years later the tax service fines the employee $4000 for tax evasion.
He tried to be a good foreigner.
He tried to understand the local laws,
but he couldn't account for all the culturally acceptable cheating that goes on.
And now...
he's back...
and it's...
PAY DAY
(explosion behind title, flames lick around and blacken the lettering, smoldering won rains willy nilly)
In theatres Summer 2014. |
Sorry.  |
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Rockhard
Joined: 11 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Rockhard wrote: |
What my ex-employer did to me was not "shitty", it is was illegal. And the tax office's participation in that illegal act is corruption. No one, especially not a foreigner, should anticipate that a country that calls itself developed breaks the law routinely. I'm from Canada. Breaking the law is just not a thing where I'm from. You could spit in your employer's face as you quit and you'll still get your final paycheck with pension contributions on it.
A real adult, no, a real citizen doesn't try to excuse away illegal behavior and shit on the powerless. A real citizen stands up against corruption and the rights on the vulnerable. |
Maybe I'm misunderstanding then. How did the tax office participate in an illegal act? Did they actually participate, or did they simply do nothing because the business you worked for was technically bankrupt?
If it's the latter case, then I'm sorry, but the responsibility to make sure that your taxes were being filed properly still falls to you, and it is in no way the responsibility of the tax office. |
Despite your flippant know-it-all attitude I will attempt to walk you through it in the vain attempt that you might learn something.
First, it is impossible for anyone under an E2 visa to be an independent contractor. How can someone be a sponsored employee limited to one workplace and be independent at the same time? A true independent contractor could work for multiple schools without having to get permission from anyone. This is not the case.
The supreme court of Korea uses the following criteria to establish if someone is an employee or not.
Does the company have decision power over the content of work of the individual?
Are company work rules applied to the individual?
Does the company have considerable control over the work processes of the individual?
Does the company set the time and date and other specifics of work?
Does the company own the work assets?
Can individual use a third party to replace the work of the individual?
Does individual have business risks associated with work with company?
Are earning based on work and, thus, not success?
Does individual near exclusively depend on payment from the company?
Is the work with the company continuous and, thus, not temporary?
Is the individual an employee under the Korean Social Security System?
Nearly all of that applies to anyone working on an E2 and thus they are an employee.
Even the Korean labor board thinks so and that's why they will often fight to get back pension premiums from cheating employers.
The tax office on the other hand doesn't give a rat's ass. They are totally and completely in the pocket of Korean businesses. You say they didn't help me because the company was bankrupt. They didn't even know the company was bankrupt. I found that out on my own after they told me this was a problem between me and the school.
In Korea, it is the employer's responsibility to file a return for the employee.
Furthermore, I wasn't obligated to file a return at all since,
the alien resident is not required to file the yearly tax return if he has one of the following things.
1) Only wage and salary earnings from which his income tax was withheld and paid by and through the employer or taxpayers associations.
Secondly, I was taxed for income that wasn't income. The school said my rent was income, but
When the university/employer purchases or rents a residence under its name and provides it to expatriates, the housing benefits are not taxable for those expatriates.
The tax office violated their law three times. I brought a binder an inch thick full of evidence to their office to prove my case with an interpreter and a lawyer and the head of the tax office basically said, "I don't give a *beep*, just pay or I'll fine you more."
Now what was that you were saying about me not being responsible? |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Rockhard wrote: |
Furthermore, I wasn't obligated to file a return at all since,
the alien resident is not required to file the yearly tax return if he has one of the following things.
1) Only wage and salary earnings from which his income tax was withheld and paid by and through the employer or taxpayers associations. |
But they weren't doing that. You took their word for it without checking. Your employer not filing your taxes correctly is also not the responsibility of the tax office. I still fail to see where the tax office broke the law. I imagine your lawyer did too since apparently you failed to repeal the fine despite an inch-thick binder of evidence. That or you need a better lawyer.
Yeah it's sketchy and corrupt as all hell. Hell, it's a system almost clearly designed for Korean employers to screw their foreign employees. Either it should be changed, or there should be some kind of laws in place to prevent shit like this happening, but whether you want to hear it or not, you still could have prevented it by checking to see if your taxes were being filed properly years ago. |
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matthews_world
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Newbies usually have the "Whoa is me!" complex, thinking that they're the only person dealing with a particularly complex issue. Chances are there are others in the same boat.
Foreigners are always thinking about themselves and in Confucian society it's common to think about others well-being.
In the same vain, newbies are always come in thinking that they are impervious meaning that things won't happen to them when they need to ask questions and be proactive about every stipulation in their contracts. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Rockhard wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
OP: checking to see if your taxes have been properly filed after your school says they did it is a matter of looking at few relatively easy-to-acquire documents. I've no doubt what your ex-employer did to you was shitty and sketchy as hell, but that's still no excuse for not knowing the law.
|
Blaming the defendent for not knowing the law is a classic deflection tactic and commonly used by American police as a way to make their job easier. Who wants to deal with subtleties when you can just lock everyone up.
In a country that respects people's rights there should be a reasonable expectation of what citizens should know.
Expecting a baby to know criminal law is unreasonable.
Expecting a tourist to read a warning sign in hangeul is unreasonable.
Expecting any citizen to know every single line of the law is unreasonable.
Expecting a foreign worker to know they must pay taxes is reasonable.
Expecting a foreign worker to check and see who's responsibility it is to file a return is reasonable.
But expecting a 23-year-old foreign worker who doesn't speak Korean to know that his workplace and the government are complicit in breaking the law is notreasonable.
And not expecting the person who sponsored the foreign worker to educate them in any way about their tax obligations is equally unreasonable.
But you continue being an apologist for a corrupt government and businesses that exploit foreign labor, cause that's helpful. |
Why is the foriegner implicated? Does the tax office not know where the Korean dude lives? He broke the law. They know the foriegner probably doesn't speak Korean and that the boss should have told him or reminded him about taxes. So, if the boss cheated the system, go after the boss and make him pay. Would seem common sense to me. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| matthews_world wrote: |
Newbies usually have the "Whoa is me!" complex, thinking that they're the only person dealing with a particularly complex issue. Chances are there are others in the same boat.
Foreigners are always thinking about themselves and in Confucian society it's common to think about others well-being.
In the same vain, newbies are always come in thinking that they are impervious meaning that things won't happen to them when they need to ask questions and be proactive about every stipulation in their contracts. |
Ask the next guy who butts in front of you, parks his car illegally and blocks traffic, throws his trash where he feels like if he's thinking about others and being a good Confucian. Basically, if it's part of your group, they're all lovey dovey. But, if it's outside your group and you don't know them, it's F U. |
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Rockhard
Joined: 11 Dec 2013
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
Why is the foriegner implicated? Does the tax office not know where the Korean dude lives? He broke the law. They know the foriegner probably doesn't speak Korean and that the boss should have told him or reminded him about taxes. So, if the boss cheated the system, go after the boss and make him pay. Would seem common sense to me. |
The tax office tried to notify me but instead of sending the notice to my current address as listed on my ARC, they kept sending it to the address my boss gave, which is the apartment she rented in her name. My boss probably received dozens of notification letters and just tossed them in the trash.
Just think about that for a second. Here, Korea has this national registration system with everyone's current address in it, yet the national tax service chooses to simply ignore that system and only send notices to addresses listed at the time taxes were withheld. Even though my name was never associated with that address and there was no proof I even lived there, because IT WASN'T MY APARTMENT!
Just that one little thing. If they could have gotten a hold of me, all of this could have been avoided. All they had to do was look up my actual address or heaven forbid, call me. But no, it took them three years to figure out how to use a phone, and when they did call they wanted blood money. Kind of funny how that is. Almost as if they wanted me to not pay my taxes. |
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rainman3277
Joined: 13 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Rockhard wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
Why is the foriegner implicated? Does the tax office not know where the Korean dude lives? He broke the law. They know the foriegner probably doesn't speak Korean and that the boss should have told him or reminded him about taxes. So, if the boss cheated the system, go after the boss and make him pay. Would seem common sense to me. |
The tax office tried to notify me but instead of sending the notice to my current address as listed on my ARC, they kept sending it to the address my boss gave, which is the apartment she rented in her name. My boss probably received dozens of notification letters and just tossed them in the trash.
Just think about that for a second. Here, Korea has this national registration system with everyone's current address in it, yet the national tax service chooses to simply ignore that system and only send notices to addresses listed at the time taxes were withheld. Even though my name was never associated with that address and there was no proof I even lived there, because IT WASN'T MY APARTMENT!
Just that one little thing. If they could have gotten a hold of me, all of this could have been avoided. All they had to do was look up my actual address or heaven forbid, call me. But no, it took them three years to figure out how to use a phone, and when they did call they wanted blood money. Kind of funny how that is. Almost as if they wanted me to not pay my taxes. |
We have our frontrunner for the 2014 DavesESL Whinniest Expat Award. But nominees earlier than June never win anyway. |
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