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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| Jongno2bucheon wrote: |
doods unionize
maybe some gyopo or long term f visa has to do it but I think it should be done
unionize and self certificate or something |
You're kidding right? Look how long and how hard Korean adjuncts have protested about low wages, including the obligatory suicide or two, and gotten nothing for their troubles.
Besides, I am certified, or was. It would need to be updated.
The largest group of foreigners where I work put together all kinds of arguments for why they deserved a raise, including some leaving due to the current salary, which was true, and had several meetings with top people and they got nothing for their trouble. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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Ah...the obligatory annual "Let's Unionize" thread.
First off most people are not here for the long haul. Most are here for a year or two and then return home. You simply can't have a union with a constantly revolving door of applicants/members.
Secondly it's been done before and turned out to be a massive failure. Do a search on this board for ATEK.
Thirdly foreigners here have different goals and interests.
Fourthly most would rather do other stuff with their free time as opposed to attending and organizing a union.
See ATEK above...a vote was held and something like 5% of members showed up.
In fact every time a vote was held turnout was abysmally low. People get jazzed up...and then over time find new interests. They'd much rather leave it to others to do the hard lifting.
Seriously though this has been discussed many many times...and the consensus is always the same...it just will not work. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Seriously though this has been discussed many many times...and the consensus is always the same...it just will not work. |
Actually it should work in theory, its just that the proper organization and framework hasn't arose.
ATEK made a classic mistake- chose "sexy" hot button issues and high-publicity lawsuits over building up an actual organization that people felt cared for them and supported their interests. They didn't focus on providing things teachers actually wanted and needed, and they were sorely lacking in that most undervalued of qualities in the 21st century- patience. If you took the lesson-planning resources of That Other ESL Site, combined with some sort of benefits program that might link to discounts at stores, restaurants, tour packages, amusement parks, movies, and pubs, and an umbrella of support services relating to health care, mental health, legal advocacy, pet adoption and veterinary services, child care and education, housing, etc. then you might have had something.
Have people buy into that at 20 bucks every 6 months and after 5 years, you'd probably have a fairly sturdy organization that could start to actually gain a real base of members and engage in actual advocacy. Until then, you have to just lay low and not rock the boat too much. If an organization offered those things above, for 20 bucks every 6 months, you'd get everyone to sign up because the costs are low relative to the benefits and even someone on a short-term contract would see fit to pay in. The services listed above are near-universal for NETs and foreigners here, as they all offer something for someone.
As for points 1 and 4, they are rather linked. With a properly managed infrastructure, you wouldn't need a large active membership that makes decisions. You'd have a core of long-termers that would make sure the administration of the organization gets taken care of, combined with web automation and volunteers, that could get much of the day-to-day stuff taken care of. That Other Site manages its lesson plans with mods and its non-paying members. Discounts would require little more than some cards and web programming, and services would largely be web link-based. With a membership of 5,000 you would only need about 1% to be actual laboring members. Same with decision making- You simply have representatives for each district or something. As long as you are staying away from big decisions, much leadership is unnecessary. If people ever felt it was necessary to protest or organize something then that would have to come from the popular voice up, not leadership down.
A successful organization needs real membership, not exaggerated imaginary numbers, and just as importantly needs to collect funds and distribute services. In order to collect those funds, you need those services.
There's no reason it shouldn't work. The problem is that people have a 21st century, impatient, get-rich-quick, movie-driven, media-splash view of how to get things done. They don't get the whole "service" part of leadership. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| an umbrella of support services relating to health care, mental health, legal advocacy, pet adoption and veterinary services, child care and education, housing, |
Forty bucks a year is going to pay for all that?
I've been a union member twice, years ago, and the dues were much higher than that and didn't offer anything near what you've described. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| I don't see EPIK raising their pay for the levels any time soon unless they start becoming really desperate. |
Why would they be desperate though? They are cutting native speakers. Korean teachers are taking over the classes once done by NETs. So no, I don't think they will ever become desperate ever again. |
If the economy recovers by some miracle and the government is awash in money to spend again combined with less foriegners coming here due to a better economy back home or opportunities to make money elsewhere. How this will play out is really anyone's guess. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Quote: |
| an umbrella of support services relating to health care, mental health, legal advocacy, pet adoption and veterinary services, child care and education, housing, |
Forty bucks a year is going to pay for all that?
I've been a union member twice, years ago, and the dues were much higher than that and didn't offer anything near what you've described. |
All of these services will be provided via a speak'n spell themed call back service. No worries! |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| I don't see EPIK raising their pay for the levels any time soon unless they start becoming really desperate. |
Why would they be desperate though? They are cutting native speakers. Korean teachers are taking over the classes once done by NETs. So no, I don't think they will ever become desperate ever again. |
If the economy recovers by some miracle and the government is awash in money to spend again combined with less foriegners coming here due to a better economy back home or opportunities to make money elsewhere. How this will play out is really anyone's guess. |
If a bullfrog had wings, it wouldn't bump its ass every time it hopped.  |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Quote: |
| an umbrella of support services relating to health care, mental health, legal advocacy, pet adoption and veterinary services, child care and education, housing, |
Forty bucks a year is going to pay for all that?
I've been a union member twice, years ago, and the dues were much higher than that and didn't offer anything near what you've described. |
health care - Band-Aids and gauze
mental health - monthly voucher for one bottle of soju
legal advocacy - URL for ESL Cafe
pet adoption - pet squid from the local seafood restaurant
veterinary services - restaurant prepares the squid as a meal for you after it dies
child care and education - video tapes of Barney the Dinosaur and the Teletubbies (one episode each)
housing - obligatory cardboard box
Totally feasible! I was born for this. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| I don't see EPIK raising their pay for the levels any time soon unless they start becoming really desperate. |
Why would they be desperate though? They are cutting native speakers. Korean teachers are taking over the classes once done by NETs. So no, I don't think they will ever become desperate ever again. |
If the economy recovers by some miracle and the government is awash in money to spend again combined with less foriegners coming here due to a better economy back home or opportunities to make money elsewhere. How this will play out is really anyone's guess. |
If Korea becomes awash in money, why would they bother bringing back NET positions which were cut? The country's sudden wealth would be proof of the adequacy of the Korean teachers teaching English/ proof the status quo (the current level of English) is sufficient. The NET plan was a plan to help a poor country to become rich by helping Korean students and teachers learn English (and to introduce Korea to Westerners in hopes that would make Korea more well known). Emerging markets are the best deal. Korea is not going to go back to becoming a new and emerging market. Do you think Japan's ESL market will ever go back to being an amazing deal? It will never happen. Likewise, it will never happen in Korea. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Quote: |
| an umbrella of support services relating to health care, mental health, legal advocacy, pet adoption and veterinary services, child care and education, housing, |
Forty bucks a year is going to pay for all that?
I've been a union member twice, years ago, and the dues were much higher than that and didn't offer anything near what you've described. |
health care - Band-Aids and gauze
mental health - monthly voucher for one bottle of soju
legal advocacy - URL for ESL Cafe
pet adoption - pet squid from the local seafood restaurant
veterinary services - restaurant prepares the squid as a meal for you after it dies
child care and education - video tapes of Barney the Dinosaur and the Teletubbies (one episode each)
housing - obligatory cardboard box
Totally feasible! I was born for this. |
For starters, most of the health care and mental health and legal advocacy would be discounts, not comprehensive services. And the organization would also be a hub that would have "approved" or "recommended" practitioners and such. People who join the AARP don't get free health care for life, but they do get discounts and services. A good example might be Chartis or educar vehicle insurance where an organization with 5,000 or so members could certainly negotiate a little discount for its members.
Also, not all members would use all of the services.
And rates would not be stable. Depending on certain thresholds being met and certain things being provided, rates would adjust accordingly.
You already get access to That Other ESL Site's lesson resources simply by being a free member and they generate revenue through advertising. In fact, its sort of a mystery that they haven't expanded their operation because they are starting to get NETs by the short n curlys with those lesson plans and such.
We can quibble over numbers, but the core truth remains- If you want any kind of union or advocacy group, you're going to need funding and membership, and in order to get THAT, you need to provide services that people want. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Quote: |
| an umbrella of support services relating to health care, mental health, legal advocacy, pet adoption and veterinary services, child care and education, housing, |
Forty bucks a year is going to pay for all that?
I've been a union member twice, years ago, and the dues were much higher than that and didn't offer anything near what you've described. |
health care - Band-Aids and gauze
mental health - monthly voucher for one bottle of soju
legal advocacy - URL for ESL Cafe
pet adoption - pet squid from the local seafood restaurant
veterinary services - restaurant prepares the squid as a meal for you after it dies
child care and education - video tapes of Barney the Dinosaur and the Teletubbies (one episode each)
housing - obligatory cardboard box
Totally feasible! I was born for this. |
For starters, most of the health care and mental health and legal advocacy would be discounts, not comprehensive services. And the organization would also be a hub that would have "approved" or "recommended" practitioners and such. People who join the AARP don't get free health care for life, but they do get discounts and services. A good example might be Chartis or educar vehicle insurance where an organization with 5,000 or so members could certainly negotiate a little discount for its members.
Also, not all members would use all of the services.
And rates would not be stable. Depending on certain thresholds being met and certain things being provided, rates would adjust accordingly.
You already get access to That Other ESL Site's lesson resources simply by being a free member and they generate revenue through advertising. In fact, its sort of a mystery that they haven't expanded their operation because they are starting to get NETs by the short n curlys with those lesson plans and such.
We can quibble over numbers, but the core truth remains- If you want any kind of union or advocacy group, you're going to need funding and membership, and in order to get THAT, you need to provide services that people want. |
How are you going to get a discount on health care which is already provided by the national health service?
The only service that seems feasible is recommendations, which one can get here 24/7 for free, along with the latest at Costco. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Zyzyfer wrote: |
health care - Band-Aids and gauze
mental health - monthly voucher for one bottle of soju
legal advocacy - URL for ESL Cafe
pet adoption - pet squid from the local seafood restaurant
veterinary services - restaurant prepares the squid as a meal for you after it dies
child care and education - video tapes of Barney the Dinosaur and the Teletubbies (one episode each)
housing - obligatory cardboard box
Totally feasible! I was born for this. |
For starters, most of the health care and mental health and legal advocacy would be discounts, not comprehensive services. And the organization would also be a hub that would have "approved" or "recommended" practitioners and such. People who join the AARP don't get free health care for life, but they do get discounts and services. A good example might be Chartis or educar vehicle insurance where an organization with 5,000 or so members could certainly negotiate a little discount for its members.
Also, not all members would use all of the services.
And rates would not be stable. Depending on certain thresholds being met and certain things being provided, rates would adjust accordingly.
You already get access to That Other ESL Site's lesson resources simply by being a free member and they generate revenue through advertising. In fact, its sort of a mystery that they haven't expanded their operation because they are starting to get NETs by the short n curlys with those lesson plans and such.
We can quibble over numbers, but the core truth remains- If you want any kind of union or advocacy group, you're going to need funding and membership, and in order to get THAT, you need to provide services that people want. |
doge says so the wow !
Well, then. I make a little joke post, you turn it up to 11 again with a rant at...somebody? I am not sure how to respond to it. I don't have anything invested in the topic of foreigners unionizing (because ATEK), and it is mostly irrelevant to the original thread topic.
You win by default, I guess. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
How are you going to get a discount on health care which is already provided by the national health service?
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Discounts on supplementary health insurance, which covers more expensive procedures which NHS doesn't really help on. Also an organization like that could provide the service of informing NETs that while they do have national health care, it is not comprehensive and will not work in the event of catastrophic injury or illness. That's why many Koreans choose to supplement their NHS coverage with private insurance.
| Quote: |
| Well, then. I make a little joke post, you turn it up to 11 again with a rant at...somebody? I am not sure how to respond to it. I don't have anything invested in the topic of foreigners unionizing (because ATEK), and it is mostly irrelevant to the original thread topic. |
Hey, at least I'm not ranting as to how we should be thankful for our jobs our Korean Overlords offer us and dismissing unionization as "needless foreigner agitation". |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Hey, at least I'm not ranting as to how we should be thankful for our jobs our Korean Overlords offer us and dismissing unionization as "needless foreigner agitation". |
You know you want to! |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
How are you going to get a discount on health care which is already provided by the national health service?
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Discounts on supplementary health insurance, which covers more expensive procedures which NHS doesn't really help on. Also an organization like that could provide the service of informing NETs that while they do have national health care, it is not comprehensive and will not work in the event of catastrophic injury or illness. That's why many Koreans choose to supplement their NHS coverage with private insurance.
| Quote: |
| Well, then. I make a little joke post, you turn it up to 11 again with a rant at...somebody? I am not sure how to respond to it. I don't have anything invested in the topic of foreigners unionizing (because ATEK), and it is mostly irrelevant to the original thread topic. |
Hey, at least I'm not ranting as to how we should be thankful for our jobs our Korean Overlords offer us and dismissing unionization as "needless foreigner agitation". |
Maybe you could get a discount on supplementary insurance, but I dealt with AARP and insurance for my parents and my experience was the companies give you a discount when you sign up and then really sock it to you a year or two later.
As for the information about insurance, you just gave it to me. Why should I pay for it?
Unions negotiate salaries for their members. How are you going to accomplish that? |
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