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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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 Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| The French are world renowned for being surrender monkeys, so what you're saying is that Korean soldiers are at a similar level. God help us then! |
Until the capture of Paris in 1814 by allied forces, Paris had not been captured by a foreign military in nearly 400 years.
Compare that to the US where they have only just this month managed 200 years without their capital falling to a foreign army. |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: third soldier kills himself - 820 since 2004! |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
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As someone who has been in the military, I can definitively state that this is a horrible idea. It takes easily around 15 months for a soldier to become even somewhat effective in his specialty.
Seeing as the service time for soldiers is currently at 21 months, I'd say that somewhere around 20% of soldiers are competent at their roles. Reduce the service time to a year and you'd have a "military" full of kids who can't even do the basics. |
What happens in those three months between the 12th and 15th month to make a kid who can't do the basics turn into someone who is somewhat effective in their speacialty?
If that is the case then they should change the training programme.
Also if only 20% of soldiers are competent in your opinion, even after 21 months of training, then they wouldn't be losing much anyway. |
A good soldier can do everything he needs to do automatically and without mistake. I got to a point where I could cruise through all my gun checks while loading my gun to go into guard duty in a matter of seconds by the time I became a Sergeant.
The privates/pfc's that I went into guard duty with also knew what to do - they had been taught all the same stuff. Yet they fumbled through their checks and many screwed up along the way - safety wasn't off, bullet wasn't loaded in the chamber, handle wasn't pushed all the way forward, etc. It got to the point where I personally checked the gun of every person I went into guard duty with.
It's all about experience. A 16 year old who has taken Driver's Ed knows how to drive. He's still going to drive like ****.
It's not a matter of training. It's a matter of taking that training and being drilled again and again until you can do it in your sleep. It's not boy scouts, it's the military - something that has to somehow defend an entire nation if there is ever a war. |
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Lucas
Joined: 11 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:
The French are world renowned for being surrender monkeys, so what you're saying is that Korean soldiers are at a similar level. God help us then!
Until the capture of Paris in 1814 by allied forces, Paris had not been captured by a foreign military in nearly 400 years.
Compare that to the US where they have only just this month managed 200 years without their capital falling to a foreign army. |
Silly me, picking a fight on Dave's with 53 History degree people (54 if you count Steelrails MOOC. 
The French are surrender monkeys, and their economy is one of the most backward and most unproductive in the whole of the EU.
I'm glad I'm able to make some of you feel relevant. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Whilst some conscripts do indeed end up just shoveling snow or mowing lawns, many are used as infantry, artillery, or armor. The infantry do get deployed to patrol the DMZ in some far out place in Gangwon-do where isolated and away from the much supervision, these things take place.
The fact is that the crazy guy to the north basically necessitates mandatory military service. You need to have a population that has had an element of basic training so that in the event of full out mobilization, you can rapidly swell your ranks. That's also the reason that many people are in fact thrown into combat roles when you'd think the ideal place for middling conscripts would be in support roles.
And as long as you have mandatory service, you are going to get some people who might not be the most stable. If you start handing out deferments left and right, the system will collapse.
Ideally Korea would move to a purely volunteer army, but that just isn't practicable given its current situation.
And the suicide rates are not that far off from other nations. For example, France's volunteer military had 230 suicides from 1997-2000 (not a peak time of French military activity) out of 315,000 soldiers. Korea has roughly double the number of soldiers, with conscripts, and had 820 since 2004.
Given easy access to firearms and conscript service... |
The French military was still a conscript force until 2001.
A better example would be the German military which was a conscript force until 2010 and between 1990 and 2011 total military suicides numbered 865. Whilst the German conscript army was a little smaller than Korea, a large number of those suicides were amongst the thousands of troops that were sent on peacekeeping missions or to Afghanistan.
The Korean rate is similar to that of the Turkish military where 2221 soldiers committed suicide in a 22 year period between 1990 and 2012. The Turks though have been fighting a pretty intensive insurgency for nearly 40 years. The fact that the largely defacto peacetime military in Korea has a similar rate to a war fighting military should be of concern. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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The French are surrender monkeys, and their economy is one of the most backward and most unproductive in the whole of the EU.
I'm glad I'm able to make some of you feel relevant. |
The French economy is the 2nd largest in the EU (Though Britain will in time supplant them) and so they are not doing that badly. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: third soldier kills himself - 820 since 2004! |
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| sml7285 wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
As someone who has been in the military, I can definitively state that this is a horrible idea. It takes easily around 15 months for a soldier to become even somewhat effective in his specialty.
Seeing as the service time for soldiers is currently at 21 months, I'd say that somewhere around 20% of soldiers are competent at their roles. Reduce the service time to a year and you'd have a "military" full of kids who can't even do the basics. |
What happens in those three months between the 12th and 15th month to make a kid who can't do the basics turn into someone who is somewhat effective in their speacialty?
If that is the case then they should change the training programme.
Also if only 20% of soldiers are competent in your opinion, even after 21 months of training, then they wouldn't be losing much anyway. |
A good soldier can do everything he needs to do automatically and without mistake. I got to a point where I could cruise through all my gun checks while loading my gun to go into guard duty in a matter of seconds by the time I became a Sergeant.
The privates/pfc's that I went into guard duty with also knew what to do - they had been taught all the same stuff. Yet they fumbled through their checks and many screwed up along the way - safety wasn't off, bullet wasn't loaded in the chamber, handle wasn't pushed all the way forward, etc. It got to the point where I personally checked the gun of every person I went into guard duty with.
It's all about experience. A 16 year old who has taken Driver's Ed knows how to drive. He's still going to drive like ****.
It's not a matter of training. It's a matter of taking that training and being drilled again and again until you can do it in your sleep. It's not boy scouts, it's the military - something that has to somehow defend an entire nation if there is ever a war. |
This is why I feel that a professional force would be of more use to Korea. The reason why even after a year they are still making those mistakes is because they don't care and they don't want to be there.
In anycase the point is that the 2 year period is way too long and can be reduced significantly. Whether it is 12 months or 15-18 months it would do a lot to reduce the ability of senior conscripts to bully the new entrants. |
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Lucas
Joined: 11 Sep 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| The French economy is the 2nd largest in the EU (Though Britain will in time supplant them) and so they are not doing that badly. |
Yes they are. |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: third soldier kills himself - 820 since 2004! |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| sml7285 wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
As someone who has been in the military, I can definitively state that this is a horrible idea. It takes easily around 15 months for a soldier to become even somewhat effective in his specialty.
Seeing as the service time for soldiers is currently at 21 months, I'd say that somewhere around 20% of soldiers are competent at their roles. Reduce the service time to a year and you'd have a "military" full of kids who can't even do the basics. |
What happens in those three months between the 12th and 15th month to make a kid who can't do the basics turn into someone who is somewhat effective in their speacialty?
If that is the case then they should change the training programme.
Also if only 20% of soldiers are competent in your opinion, even after 21 months of training, then they wouldn't be losing much anyway. |
A good soldier can do everything he needs to do automatically and without mistake. I got to a point where I could cruise through all my gun checks while loading my gun to go into guard duty in a matter of seconds by the time I became a Sergeant.
The privates/pfc's that I went into guard duty with also knew what to do - they had been taught all the same stuff. Yet they fumbled through their checks and many screwed up along the way - safety wasn't off, bullet wasn't loaded in the chamber, handle wasn't pushed all the way forward, etc. It got to the point where I personally checked the gun of every person I went into guard duty with.
It's all about experience. A 16 year old who has taken Driver's Ed knows how to drive. He's still going to drive like ****.
It's not a matter of training. It's a matter of taking that training and being drilled again and again until you can do it in your sleep. It's not boy scouts, it's the military - something that has to somehow defend an entire nation if there is ever a war. |
This is why I feel that a professional force would be of more use to Korea. The reason why even after a year they are still making those mistakes is because they don't care and they don't want to be there.
In anycase the point is that the 2 year period is way too long and can be reduced significantly. Whether it is 12 months or 15-18 months it would do a lot to reduce the ability of senior conscripts to bully the new entrants. |
Of course they don't want to be there. But trust me, the new guys work their asses off. They all have their differing reasons, but none new guy in his right mind slacks off. Seriously.
Even in the US Army, the lowest rank that someone can be before they're trusted to not screw up all the time is Specialist, a rank that takes around two years to achieve.
A professional army won't work because of the size of the Nork Army. Even a group of hardened US SF or Delta members wouldn't be able to fight back in a 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 battle. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The French are world renowned for being surrender monkeys, so what you're saying is that Korean soldiers are at a similar level. God help us then! |
Until the capture of Paris in 1814 by allied forces, Paris had not been captured by a foreign military in nearly 400 years.
Compare that to the US where they have only just this month managed 200 years without their capital falling to a foreign army. |
A minor quibble, and one I borrow from Shelby Foote. Foote mentions how in the movie Patton,Patton says "We Americans have never lost a war" and Foote says thats an odd thing for him to say considering Patton's great-grandfather fought for the Confederacy,and theycertainly lost. Likewise, the capital of Richmond was captured 149 years and a few months ago. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:08 am Post subject: Re: third soldier kills himself - 820 since 2004! |
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Of course they don't want to be there. But trust me, the new guys work their asses off. They all have their differing reasons, but none new guy in his right mind slacks off. Seriously.
Even in the US Army, the lowest rank that someone can be before they're trusted to not screw up all the time is Specialist, a rank that takes around two years to achieve.
A professional army won't work because of the size of the Nork Army. Even a group of hardened US SF or Delta members wouldn't be able to fight back in a 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 battle. |
I of course defer to your greater knowledge on the subject and personal experience. However, mandatory military service puts a huge strain on Korean society of which suicides are just the tip of the iceberg. A new balance needs to be struck.
Even with the current system the standing army of the North vastly outnumbers the ROK. The standing army itself is only the frontline of a huge 3 million + army that would be mobilized in the event of war.
The role of the conscript forces is to withstand the initial onslaught and give time for full mobilization to take place. Therefore wouldn't it be better to have a force half the size, but fully professional with proper rates of pay and decent conditions? A smaller force that was made up of soldiers with years of training and the morale of a world class military would be of inifintely greater utility than a large mass of depressed 20 year olds, many of which would have had less than 12 months training anyway. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Lucas wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The French economy is the 2nd largest in the EU (Though Britain will in time supplant them) and so they are not doing that badly. |
Yes they are. |
They are not doing that badly. |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The French are world renowned for being surrender monkeys, so what you're saying is that Korean soldiers are at a similar level. God help us then! |
Until the capture of Paris in 1814 by allied forces, Paris had not been captured by a foreign military in nearly 400 years.
Compare that to the US where they have only just this month managed 200 years without their capital falling to a foreign army. |
A minor quibble, and one I borrow from Shelby Foote. Foote mentions how in the movie Patton,Patton says "We Americans have never lost a war" and Foote says thats an odd thing for him to say considering Patton's great-grandfather fought for the Confederacy,and theycertainly lost. Likewise, the capital of Richmond was captured 149 years and a few months ago. |
You are quite right, I completely forgot about the CSA. |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:56 am Post subject: Re: third soldier kills himself - 820 since 2004! |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
Of course they don't want to be there. But trust me, the new guys work their asses off. They all have their differing reasons, but none new guy in his right mind slacks off. Seriously.
Even in the US Army, the lowest rank that someone can be before they're trusted to not screw up all the time is Specialist, a rank that takes around two years to achieve.
A professional army won't work because of the size of the Nork Army. Even a group of hardened US SF or Delta members wouldn't be able to fight back in a 10 to 1 or 100 to 1 battle. |
I of course defer to your greater knowledge on the subject and personal experience. However, mandatory military service puts a huge strain on Korean society of which suicides are just the tip of the iceberg. A new balance needs to be struck.
Even with the current system the standing army of the North vastly outnumbers the ROK. The standing army itself is only the frontline of a huge 3 million + army that would be mobilized in the event of war.
The role of the conscript forces is to withstand the initial onslaught and give time for full mobilization to take place. Therefore wouldn't it be better to have a force half the size, but fully professional with proper rates of pay and decent conditions? A smaller force that was made up of soldiers with years of training and the morale of a world class military would be of inifintely greater utility than a large mass of depressed 20 year olds, many of which would have had less than 12 months training anyway. |
The army is currently divided into three distinct groups. The first is the easiest to explain. They're the ones in the rear. The logistics guys who make sure that everything is running and that the combat arms guys continue to get their supplies and food in war and in peace.
The second is the most well known - the former 1st Army, located in the North Eastern part of Korea. This is the place that no parent wants their kid to go. It's known colloquially as "GOP". It's up in the mountains, takes forever to get to and snows like crazy. However, being up in the mountains, it's actually safer. The mountains are wide enough that artillery is not really an option, rough enough that the enemy would be stupid to cross and pretty much soldiers are there just in case. In fact, with exception to soldiers on the very front lines (who only stand guard for 21 months) the soldiers in the Northeast train a ton and exist as the response teams in time of war.
The third are the ones in the North Western part of Korea. They are the guys who are completely ******* if war breaks out. They train just enough and frequently to be able to maneuver during war, but they are pretty much cannonfodder. Pretty much the soldiers standing between the Norks and Seoul are to fight until reinforcements can come.
The truth is that not all soldiers are created equal, even among conscripted soldiers. And trust me. The fear of death is one heck of a motivator. Winter 2012 till Spring 2013.... the atmosphere in the region I was in was no joke. We legitimately thought a war was going to break out. Our base had high priority radar and if a war broke out, our base would've been one of the first shot by the Norks. Morale wasn't high to begin and things only got worse, but as the tensions rose, stuff came together. Cohesion happened. Honestly, the fear of death kept everyone on their toes and things on base never ran better (though everyone looked like death and smelled like ****)
And honestly, no one wants to be a soldier. Seriously. The people who are good conscripted soldiers always get out because they are the ones who actually have options out in society. The ones who stay in are the dregs of society and are dumb as ****. Sending boy scouts would be better than having a professional only army. |
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SeoulNate
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Location: Hyehwa
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
And the suicide rates are not that far off from other nations. For example, France's volunteer military had 230 suicides from 1997-2000 (not a peak time of French military activity) out of 315,000 soldiers. Korea has roughly double the number of soldiers, with conscripts, and had 820 since 2004.
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Except France actually deploys their soldiers...
PTSD is a real thing.
Getting bullied into PTSD shouldn't be. |
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Hokie21
Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| aq8knyus wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The French are world renowned for being surrender monkeys, so what you're saying is that Korean soldiers are at a similar level. God help us then! |
Until the capture of Paris in 1814 by allied forces, Paris had not been captured by a foreign military in nearly 400 years.
Compare that to the US where they have only just this month managed 200 years without their capital falling to a foreign army. |
A minor quibble, and one I borrow from Shelby Foote. Foote mentions how in the movie Patton,Patton says "We Americans have never lost a war" and Foote says thats an odd thing for him to say considering Patton's great-grandfather fought for the Confederacy,and theycertainly lost. Likewise, the capital of Richmond was captured 149 years and a few months ago. |
You are quite right, I completely forgot about the CSA. |
So if we're counting the CSA vs the Union I guess we might as well start counting all those French Wars of Religion.... |
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