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Worlder
Joined: 26 Feb 2013
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 Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| EZE wrote: |
| "staying after class" is bar far the most effective and most acceptable, generally speaking. |
I do this on occasion. But only for a few minutes, which probably defeats the purpose. I'm such a nervous Nellie that I worry about the kids getting hit by a car on the way home. I don't want anything coming back at me. ^^ |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Stain wrote: |
| What I have learned is be an asshole. The kids might not like you at first but eventually they will come around and realize that you are in charge and you will see that magically they want to impress you with how well they are following the rules. Mind you this doesn't work for ages 5-19. Otherwise, you're golden. Hope this helps. |
 
What do we think about punishments like making students stand with their hands in the air for 3-5 minutes in the hallway? It uses humiliation and isolation as part of a teaching strategy, and doesn't necessarily address the actual behavior, or provide a model the student can use to change his behavior.
I could just imagine the uproar if we heard of a boss telling her subordinate to stand in the hallway with his hands up for talking during a meeting. :/ |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| What do we think about punishments like making students stand with their hands in the air for 3-5 minutes in the hallway? It uses humiliation and isolation as part of a teaching strategy, and doesn't necessarily address the actual behavior, or provide a model the student can use to change his behavior. |
I think it's ok, considering the limited resources NET's have to actually discipline anyone, and the language barrier. Get the one, or few, students out of the room so that the rest can actually enjoy the class, instead of bringing everyone down.
| kabrams wrote: |
| I could just imagine the uproar if we heard of a boss telling her subordinate to stand in the hallway with his hands up for talking during a meeting. :/ |
In the real world the subordinate probably soon be looking for a new job. Firing is the humiliation in a real world situation. Of course there are unions to deal with sometimes, then you'd 'move' the employee in questions, which is effectively humiliation. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I think it's ok, considering the limited resources NET's have to actually discipline anyone, and the language barrier. |
Do you think this is effective at all? I never had to use discipline tactics such as standing in the hallway/raising arms on my students in the United States or in Korea. It seems like a complete waste of time.
| Quote: |
| In the real world the subordinate probably soon be looking for a new job. Firing is the humiliation in a real world situation. Of course there are unions to deal with sometimes, then you'd 'move' the employee in questions, which is effectively humiliation. |
In the real world (at least in the United States) that employee could take his employer to task for encouraging a hostile workplace. My Korean co-teachers also disliked these types of punishments. I don't see the point, and neither did they. I was lucky in that way, I think. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think it's ok, considering the limited resources NET's have to actually discipline anyone, and the language barrier. |
Do you think this is effective at all? I never had to use discipline tactics such as standing in the hallway/raising arms on my students in the United States or in Korea. It seems like a complete waste of time. |
Depending on the school, it is effective in that it eliminates a problem right away, instead of telling the same kid to stop disrupting the class every 30 seconds. If it's 1 kid, of 35 kids, it's better removing the problem than focusing on him. At least in middle/high schools, at that age they should know better.
Saying that, in all boys' middle schools it's like a daily occurrence. In coed, or girls' middle schools, or academic high schools it's a once a month occurrence.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In the real world the subordinate probably soon be looking for a new job. Firing is the humiliation in a real world situation. Of course there are unions to deal with sometimes, then you'd 'move' the employee in questions, which is effectively humiliation. |
In the real world (at least in the United States) that employee could take his employer to task for encouraging a hostile workplace. My Korean co-teachers also disliked these types of punishments. I don't see the point, and neither did they. I was lucky in that way, I think. |
Whoa, hold on here, you didn't mention anything of a hostile work environment. You just said some guy who disrupts a meeting. I assumed this certain employee is hostile, and doesn't get along with other employees. In that case guy can be fired, or isolated, which happens a lot in the work force. The consequences are probably worse as an adult, because adults tend not to take explicit bs from other adults, of an equal level, for too long. Children are often allowed to carry on their questionable behavior for a long time, if they're even ever told to 'pipe-down'. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I think it's ok, considering the limited resources NET's have to actually discipline anyone, and the language barrier. |
Do you think this is effective at all? I never had to use discipline tactics such as standing in the hallway/raising arms on my students in the United States or in Korea. It seems like a complete waste of time. |
Depending on the school, it is effective in that it eliminates a problem right away, instead of telling the same kid to stop disrupting the class every 30 seconds. If it's 1 kid, of 35 kids, it's better removing the problem than focusing on him. At least in middle/high schools, at that age they should know better.
Saying that, in all boys' middle schools it's like a daily occurrence. In coed, or girls' middle schools, or academic high schools it's a once a month occurrence. |
Do you think effective classroom management skills/lesson plans willl eliminate some of these disruptions? I used to have students (K-8 in the US, boys and girls) who would disrupt classes every single day, until I asked them what their problem was. It turned out they felt unstable in the classroom due to unclear expectations, or a completely ridiculous/boring lesson. They also had to contend with barriers outside of school. I wonder how many NETs even care to ask students what they do/experience outside of school?
How many teachers even ask why these students disrupt class?
| Quote: |
Whoa, hold on here, you didn't mention anything of a hostile work environment. You just said some guy who disrupts a meeting. I assumed this certain employee is hostile, and doesn't get along with other employees. In that case guy can be fired, or isolated, which happens a lot in the work force. The consequences are probably worse as an adult, because adults tend not to take explicit bs from other adults, of an equal level, for too long. Children are often allowed to carry on their questionable behavior for a long time, if they're even ever told to 'pipe-down'. |
I set up a scenario in which a subordinate (student) has to respond to the direction of a superior (teacher). Imagine a superior telling a subordinate to stand outside with his hands raised because he talked (albeit out of turn) during a meeting. Superiors have ways to deal with that, and those methods don't involve making the subordinate complete physical tasks that are humiliating or demeaning. A superior who makes a subordinate stand outside with his hands raised has contributed to creating a hostile work environment.
Asking a student to stand outside the classroom with his hands raised seems somewhat irrelevant to the ultimate goal of teaching that student. You've created a weird barrier between teacher and student (I can make you do something ridiculous because I'm the teacher and I say so, so go ahead and stand outside with your hands raised because whatever...I say so.). What is the student learning here? It's this behaviorist approach that I don't agree with.
I have had some problem students, and it was my inexperience as a teacher, not the student, that prevented progress. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
Do you think effective classroom management skills/lesson plans willl eliminate some of these disruptions? I used to have students (K-8 in the US, boys and girls) who would disrupt classes every single day, until I asked them what their problem was. It turned out they felt unstable in the classroom due to unclear expectations, or a completely ridiculous/boring lesson. They also had to contend with barriers outside of school. I wonder how many NETs even care to ask students what they do/experience outside of school?
How many teachers even ask why these students disrupt class? |
Again, not ideal, but a language barrier does get in the way. Often the KT isn't in the classroom, can't really get into a deep conversation in Korean, I just point the way outside.
| kabrams wrote: |
I set up a scenario in which a subordinate (student) has to respond to the direction of a superior (teacher). Imagine a superior telling a subordinate to stand outside with his hands raised because he talked (albeit out of turn) during a meeting. Superiors have ways to deal with that, and those methods don't involve making the subordinate complete physical tasks that are humiliating or demeaning. A superior who makes a subordinate stand outside with his hands raised has contributed to creating a hostile work environment.
Asking a student to stand outside the classroom with his hands raised seems somewhat irrelevant to the ultimate goal of teaching that student. You've created a weird barrier between teacher and student (I can make you do something ridiculous because I'm the teacher and I say so, so go ahead and stand outside with your hands raised because whatever...I say so.). What is the student learning here? It's this behaviorist approach that I don't agree with.
I have had some problem students, and it was my inexperience as a teacher, not the student, that prevented progress. |
The student is being told to be considerate of the 30 other kids to be quiet. Kids aren't adults, and most societies don't grant them full human rights until they reach a certain age (voting, marriage, freedom of movement). Of course you wouldn't make an adult do such things, unless they are incarcerated. Also, there is supposed to be a barrier between teacher, and student. We aren't their friends.
Anyways, I'll take what you said into consideration, and may consider alternative methods if it warrants. But I'm still going to consider sending kids outside. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
Do you think effective classroom management skills/lesson plans willl eliminate some of these disruptions? I used to have students (K-8 in the US, boys and girls) who would disrupt classes every single day, until I asked them what their problem was. It turned out they felt unstable in the classroom due to unclear expectations, or a completely ridiculous/boring lesson. They also had to contend with barriers outside of school. I wonder how many NETs even care to ask students what they do/experience outside of school?
How many teachers even ask why these students disrupt class? |
Again, not ideal, but a language barrier does get in the way. Often the KT isn't in the classroom, can't really get into a deep conversation in Korean, I just point the way outside. |
Fair enough. I usually ask my students "How are you today?" or "Are you OK?" or "Excuse me, do you need help?" if they're disrupting class, and that usually clues them in that 1. they're doing something that's causing me concern and 2. I want to actively figure out how to get them to stay on task. It's pretty effective, and uses low-level language.
| jvalmer wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
I set up a scenario in which a subordinate (student) has to respond to the direction of a superior (teacher). Imagine a superior telling a subordinate to stand outside with his hands raised because he talked (albeit out of turn) during a meeting. Superiors have ways to deal with that, and those methods don't involve making the subordinate complete physical tasks that are humiliating or demeaning. A superior who makes a subordinate stand outside with his hands raised has contributed to creating a hostile work environment.
Asking a student to stand outside the classroom with his hands raised seems somewhat irrelevant to the ultimate goal of teaching that student. You've created a weird barrier between teacher and student (I can make you do something ridiculous because I'm the teacher and I say so, so go ahead and stand outside with your hands raised because whatever...I say so.). What is the student learning here? It's this behaviorist approach that I don't agree with.
I have had some problem students, and it was my inexperience as a teacher, not the student, that prevented progress. |
The student is being told to be considerate of the 30 other kids to be quiet. Kids aren't adults, and most societies don't grant them full human rights until they reach a certain age (voting, marriage, freedom of movement). Of course you wouldn't make an adult do such things, unless they are incarcerated. Also, there is supposed to be a barrier between teacher, and student. We aren't their friends. |
There are roles that are appropriate for a teacher and for a student, and of course we shouldn't be "friends" with our students, but this does not mean we shouldn't be friendly, and create an atmosphere of mutual trust and respect. Human rights extend to children, just in different ways.
I could never trust a teacher who told me to stand outside with my hands raised, and I would never want my students to respect me out of fear of punishment.
It always surprises me when I hear teachers say, "Walk into the classroom super strict and then ease up as the year goes on!" I just think, why? Would you ever like a boss who did that to you? I use examples with adults at work because it's easier to see how some practices are just strange. But we don't think about it, because we're dealing with kids, and we can make them do whatever.
But YMMV, you know? Each classroom is different.
| jvalmer wrote: |
| Anyways, I'll take what you said into consideration, and may consider alternative methods if it warrants. But I'm still going to consider sending kids outside. |
I hope you know I wasn't trying to get you to do anything/change your teaching style. I just like hearing folks' rationale behind how they teach. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| I hope you know I wasn't trying to get you to do anything/change your teaching style. I just like hearing folks' rationale behind how they teach. |
As a teacher, I've always got to open to be different ideas. |
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kimchi_pizza
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Location: "Get back on the bus! Here it comes!"
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Laminate 3, 2"x4" red cards, yellow cards and green cards. Buy a very
small notebook.
Keep them readily available. Should you see any poor behavior, whip out
a yellow card without saying a word (they are already aware of what they
are doing) and simply stop, raise it and act out or actually write a note in your notebook, then continue without missing a beat.
Say nothing.
The fear of the unknown or what you are doing is key.
Excessively poor behavior, red card them and do the same.
Likewise for when you see students assisting others or show proper behavior: green card. Again, say nothing. Make note.
Up to you to take it from there, but at the very least, never EVER lose your cool and show anger or exasperation.
If it's beyond your control, that's what admin is for and at least you may have a small record to
show. Personally, I'm there to teach and that is my focus. Punishment, I
leave that to parents and my employers.
A side note: It will benefit you more if you show a mischievous smile while doing it and don't be too serious. |
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YujiKaido
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:50 am Post subject: |
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This is pretty good advice, Thanks for sharing. I used something similar with yellow,green and red stickers during a summer camp program. Worked really well.
| kimchi_pizza wrote: |
Laminate 3, 2"x4" red cards, yellow cards and green cards. Buy a very
small notebook.
Keep them readily available. Should you see any poor behavior, whip out
a yellow card without saying a word (they are already aware of what they
are doing) and simply stop, raise it and act out or actually write a note in your notebook, then continue without missing a beat.
Say nothing.
The fear of the unknown or what you are doing is key.
Excessively poor behavior, red card them and do the same.
Likewise for when you see students assisting others or show proper behavior: green card. Again, say nothing. Make note.
Up to you to take it from there, but at the very least, never EVER lose your cool and show anger or exasperation.
If it's beyond your control, that's what admin is for and at least you may have a small record to
show. Personally, I'm there to teach and that is my focus. Punishment, I
leave that to parents and my employers.
A side note: It will benefit you more if you show a mischievous smile while doing it and don't be too serious. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| Worlder wrote: |
| EZE wrote: |
| "staying after class" is bar far the most effective and most acceptable, generally speaking. |
I do this on occasion. But only for a few minutes, which probably defeats the purpose. I'm such a nervous Nellie that I worry about the kids getting hit by a car on the way home. I don't want anything coming back at me. ^^ |
Yeah, sometimes I have to cut it short myself if I'm worried about them missing the bus, or if I have another class starting in ten minutes and I know I have a ton of homework to check in that one. I like to use the time between classes to check as much of the next class's homework as possible, so sometimes it's hard to juggle detention from the previous class, checking homework from the next class, along with other tasks such as cleaning off and straightening up the desks, taking a leak, etc.
But I think for the kids to have to stay late at all when everyone else is leaving is worth a lot in and of itself. If I can just teach them five more minutes, even that is a valuable deterrent and they also receive some one-on-one instruction, which they usually genuinely need. |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Disopline punishments? You want to punish discipline? |
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kimchi_pizza
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Location: "Get back on the bus! Here it comes!"
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| YujiKaido wrote: |
This is pretty good advice, Thanks for sharing. I used something similar with yellow,green and red stickers during a summer camp program. Worked really well.
| kimchi_pizza wrote: |
Laminate 3, 2"x4" red cards, yellow cards and green cards. Buy a very
small notebook.
Keep them readily available. Should you see any poor behavior, whip out
a yellow card without saying a word (they are already aware of what they
are doing) and simply stop, raise it and act out or actually write a note in your notebook, then continue without missing a beat.
Say nothing.
The fear of the unknown or what you are doing is key.
Excessively poor behavior, red card them and do the same.
Likewise for when you see students assisting others or show proper behavior: green card. Again, say nothing. Make note.
Up to you to take it from there, but at the very least, never EVER lose your cool and show anger or exasperation.
If it's beyond your control, that's what admin is for and at least you may have a small record to
show. Personally, I'm there to teach and that is my focus. Punishment, I
leave that to parents and my employers.
A side note: It will benefit you more if you show a mischievous smile while doing it and don't be too serious. |
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Thank you for the kind comment, Yuji~ If you'd like additional advice, I'll pm my bank info.
I'm teasing of course~! When it comes to actual teaching, knowledge of
your field is obviously paramount. But...classroom management and cohesion,
I prefer imagination over intelligence. You should see my adult evening
classes when I start flashing red and yellow cards!
Again, I joke, I simply go out and key their cars. *wink*
As you can see, teasing your peers and students, coaxing students to
improve and do better with a wink in one's eye is fun, unobtrusive and
creates a more relaxed atmosphere.
Anywho, I'm sure you are already a kind and effective teacher, well aware
of what you are doing for the best desired results and learning experience. |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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4 things that work for me;
Flexible when necessary.
Clear rules.
Consistancy.
Fair but firm.
You just want to hope that other teachers are on the same page as you or else youve got twice the battle. Otherwise, it will get easier and easier.
Kids and even adults, love rules - they feel secure. Inconsistency does the opposite.
Flexibility comes in to play because for example sometimes kids have a genuine reason for forgetting their homework. |
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