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What's the deal with this one way flight?
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Guajiro

Joined: 04 Dec 2008

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:10 am Post subject:

GENO123 wrote:

At some point everyone just needs to say no to esl korea. All in all it is just the worst game in town. Accepting a position at a hogwon is is insanity. Ss happy the won is going to fall .
Anything to drive a steak into the heart of that horrible industry. Lipstick on a pig continues to be the rule when it comes to esl korea.

Mmmm... steak.

GENO123

Joined: 28 Jan 2010

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:36 pm Post subject:

Guajiro wrote:

GENO123 wrote:

Mmmm... steak.

stake. . some get hungry as thry write

JohnML

Joined: 05 Jul 2015

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:49 pm Post subject:

meangradin wrote:

pmwhittier wrote:

Quote:

I had a recruiter tell me the other day that the "Academy Union" had decided not to provide airfare to Korea anymore.

Ha ha. That's funny. Recruiters really will say anything to make a sale. I feel sorry for the new applicants that don't know that things like an "Academy Union" are completely made up delusions of an idiot recruiter trying to dupe some poor schmuck.

In related news, I heard that the super boss of the Hagwon Super Friends club decided that all new employees must pay for their own apartments. Sucks, but it is what it is, ya know?

As a hagwon owner, I can tell you that there is an academy owners organization, but I couldn't tell you how much power they wield. I can say that we meet a few times a year and discuss industry standards. the one way plane ticket is/will be the industry standard.

People think that if they whinge and fight back enough that it'll make a difference, some people have a extremely far fetched sense of self importance here. The truth is that English teachers not only in Korea but I can personally vouch for Japan and China are no longer in shortage. They just aren't hard to source anymore.

Schools can be picky about who they choose and can make harder bargains these days because there is always someone who will take up the offer that someone else won't. You and me both know it won't end at one way tickets soon it'll be only a available to those already in country. Then no free accommodation, then God knows what. There are already tons of positions without flights in China.

Schools and recruiters have every right to be this tough, it's a free market. If people don't like it they can find places were English teaching is still in demand and/or get qualified in a skilled trade that has a shortage of quality candidates.

If people want to continue to hedge their bets in teaching ESL long term then they should at least understand the likely future implications. There doesn't seem to be a lot of useful non biased info on this out there though as it tends to be full of recruiters trying to sell jobs at their cheapest offers and current foreign teachers under payroll trying to convince themselves that the future is rosey.

GENO123

Joined: 28 Jan 2010

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject:

Demand in china isnt bad with much more upside than Korea.esl in china hasnt gone to the devil like esl korea.

pmwhittier

Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Location: Korea

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:38 pm Post subject:

Maybe I'm mistaken, as I don't remember where I read it, but I thought that the round-trip ticket and employer-provided housing are immigration guidelines, not at the whim of the employer. I had read that the ticket was to prevent people from being stuck in the country while unemployed. Same with the housing, I thought that was so that Korea wouldn't have a whole bunch of homeless foreigners. Basically, while under the care of your employer, you would have housing and passage in/out of Korea to prevent transients from mucking up the place. Anyone have any concrete details to prove/disprove this? Maybe I just read something that was wishful ranting rather than actual fact. I remember when people treated other people well. Too bad the Academy Owners Organization is voting to stop this kind of treatment of people.

meangradin

Joined: 10 Mar 2006

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:49 pm Post subject:

pmwhittier wrote:

Maybe I'm mistaken, as I don't remember where I read it, but I thought that the round-trip ticket and employer-provided housing are immigration guidelines, not at the whim of the employer. I had read that the ticket was to prevent people from being stuck in the country while unemployed. Same with the housing, I thought that was so that Korea wouldn't have a whole bunch of homeless foreigners. Basically, while under the care of your employer, you would have housing and passage in/out of Korea to prevent transients from mucking up the place.

Anyone have any concrete details to prove/disprove this? Maybe I just read something that was wishful ranting rather than actual fact.

I remember when people treated other people well. Too bad the Academy Owners Organization is voting to stop this kind of treatment of people.

as far as i know, it is entirely voluntary. i've never read/heard of a school being fined for not providing airfare or housing as part of a contract.

JohnML

Joined: 05 Jul 2015

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:46 am Post subject:

meangradin wrote:

pmwhittier wrote:

as far as i know, it is entirely voluntary. i've never read/heard of a school being fined for not providing airfare or housing as part of a contract.

Would also think this, if it was not voluntary all those schools not providing airfare at all (and there are some) could easily just require the teacher to have their own return flight pre-booked before entering the country so there are plenty of ways around it. To be fair English teachers have had it pretty good for the last few decades it was only a matter of time before it happened with the increase in graduates and people willing to travel. It'll only get worse before it gets better.

World Traveler

Joined: 29 May 2009

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:01 pm Post subject:

Even some public schools are only offering one way airfare:

Quote:

Public elementary school, Namyang ju, North American female (Namyang ju , Gyeoggido)

Location:Namyang ju , Gyeoggido
Gender: female in Korea prefer
Starting date: March 1st .2016
Needed :1
Type of Students :elementary
Nationality :US,CA
Working days a week : Mon~Friday
Full time Payment : 2.2~2.3 mil won
Operating hours : 8:40am~4:30pm
One wat airfare

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:11 am Post subject:

JohnML wrote:

meangradin wrote:

pmwhittier wrote:

Quote:

I had a recruiter tell me the other day that the "Academy Union" had decided not to provide airfare to Korea anymore.

I have a hard time seeing no free accommodation ever really working in Korea. The key money burden is simply too high for the kind of individuals who are willing to go and teach in Korea. How many recent graduates have $10,000 sitting around? Those that do generally are going to use that money to get started in a city in their home country, not give it to some shady Korean landlord.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:11 pm Post subject:

JohnML wrote:

This may be true for Korea and Japan but not so much for China. Here's an article that says otherwise

http://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2015/04/28/china-faces-english-teacher-shortage

Quote:

With at least 4,000 native-speaking English teachers needed nationwide for 2015-16, and foreigners wanting to come to China increasingly insistent about remaining in their own industries, fewer candidates to fill those positions are available

Quote:

This lack of interest, combined with almost draconian regulations released in 2014 that require five years of experience plus teaching certification in the language or languages they wish to instruct has put a squeeze on demand.

Of course they could always relax the regulations mentioned above...but that seems unlikely as they were put in place to mitigate the public's concern about unqualified teachers...and the trend worldwide is for regulations getting more onerous and not more relaxed. Plus the "loss of face" for the officials who introduced these new laws. And unlike previous corruption campaigns China appears to be serious about this one.

http://www.expatforum.com/expats/china-expat-forum-expats-living-china/464018-cftu-confirms-1-600-china-foreign-teachers-deported-2014-so-far.html

Quote:

To date, 1,637 expats have been expelled from China in 2014, and 1,237 of these have been foreign teachers. 1,015 were found working on L, F, and X visas, fined an average of $1,800 and deported with three year reentry bans. Another 28 were expelled for "violent acts", 39 for "criminal activities", and 121 for "contraband", and the balance for "other reasons" that were not explained."

China's still pretty good and getting better. Anyone who comes over here and takes a job without flights or accommodation is either a fool or illegal. In either case I have no sympathy for them. In the first case it's 2016, one can easily arrange a decent job here without ever leaving the comfort of home. There's simply no excuse for not doing your homework. In the second, you reap what you sow.

JohnML

Joined: 05 Jul 2015

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:46 pm Post subject:

northway wrote:

JohnML wrote:

meangradin wrote:

pmwhittier wrote:

Quote:

I had a recruiter tell me the other day that the "Academy Union" had decided not to provide airfare to Korea anymore.

Upfront accommodation for first x months, payment deducted from monthly salary earnings until graduate is in neutral territory (will be less than the contract period), after which he pays rent himself. Upfront salary if necessary for expenses and clauses for deductions on security deposit in contract. Places already do similar things.

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

This may be true for Korea and Japan but not so much for China.

Point taken also to further your argument China actually did just increase the requirements to a notarized degree but I haven't seen salaries rise over the years (10-15k rmb private/public schools) and I've seen privates go from 300 rmb/hour to 100 rmb/hour. It's still better than Korea for now no doubt but I can't see it going down any other path than the one Korea has found itself trailing.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:53 am Post subject:

JohnML wrote:

[Point taken also to further your argument China actually did just increase the requirements to a notarized degree but I haven't seen salaries rise over the years (10-15k rmb private/public schools) and I've seen privates go from 300 rmb/hour to 100 rmb/hour. It's still better than Korea for now no doubt but I can't see it going down any other path than the one Korea has found itself trailing.

WARNING...LONG REPLY! (you might want to make a cup of coffee first before you read this) Smile

If you look further back you will see that salaries have risen overall. I've seen sites that state that 4000 RMB used to be a common salary for teachers back in the early 2000's. 15 years on they've (roughly) tripled. Cost of living has risen as well...but outside the big 3 one can still find quite reasonable prices.
Now you may be right about China following the path of Korea...but let us consider a few things.

First and foremost, the price of living is not going to climb sky-high like Korea any time soon. Many locals simply wouldn't be able to afford it. That would cause vast social unrest and upheaval...which is the greatest threat to the Party. So even if they need to intervene...the cost of living is going to continue being quite low in the foreseeable future. Oh we'll see a modest increase sometime along the way now and then...but I think the next 10 or so years will be okay. (After that, we'll see what happens)

Second let's assume for the sake of argument that China is serious about cleaning up their foreign teacher situation...that is greatly going to reduce the competition for legal teachers. If supply lessens, demand increases. That in turn will keep salaries high. They are certainly not going to fall in a high demand market.
At worst people might remain consistent for 2-3 years before seeing a raise.
But that depends on yourself, your qualifications and how you can market yourself. If you meet all the qualifications and then some, you can (within reason) set your own price. And if supply shrinks they will have to meet it or wait longer to get another foreign teacher (again I am talking about 2nd and 3rd tier cities...not the big ones.)

Third (to address your remark about privates). Again it goes back to being able to market yourself. If you show up in T-shirt and jeans and just do "free talking" with no structured lesson plan...then 100 RMB/hr might be all that you can get. Now show up in suit and tie, with a briefcase with books and prepared lesson plans/tests. Also if you have them you should bring 'testimonals' (so as to speak) from past satisfied customers. I certainly wouldn't do all that for less than 300 RMB a hour...and if they don't want to pay me that, then they can find some cowboy to pay 100 RMB and hope that little Suzy or Tommy can learn something. If you are a good teacher you can find your market eventually. Heck, bring along a Chinese speaking friend to market you to the parents if you have to. The point is that you MUST be proactive. One can not simply sit there and hope that things will get better. Not saying that you did...just saying.

Number four. With more than 20X the population of Korea, China has plenty of leeway yet. The biggest problem in Korea is the falling demographics (students in our case). With China having relaxed their 'one child policy' (and keep in mind that policy was NOT country wide but applied mainly to the cities) there's plenty of room to maneuver yet and will be for some time to come.

So barring dramatic policy shifts like the government suddenly deciding that English is not necessary, or the current unqualified teacher witch hunt running out of steam...I think the future looks pretty decent for now. At least until I retire...in which case I won't care anymore. Smile

But yes...the advice I would give people who are just starting out in this game or thinking about it..."Don't hope to make a living at this. I've done ok...but just okay for myself and I had a good deal of luck. If you are looking for money, do one or two years at most and then go home. Build a career for yourself there. Only if you really REALLY enjoy this, should you do this long term. It's not the 'Wild West' any more where you can make some good money for a short time and then move on quietly to the next place. Nowadays I think you're best off having a gap year or two and then going back."

It should be noted though, that if I had to do this all over again...I can't really say that I would do anything different. But then again I'm different from most people so I'm not holding my lifestyle up as an example for people to follow.

matthews_world

Joined: 15 Feb 2003

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:00 am Post subject:

I didn't read all of the previous post but 5 years experience is only observed in Beijing. If you don't that that in Beijing, they put on competitively paid internship status and give you a Z-visa. You can teach in Guangdong Province in many cases without a degree or even a visa - just do the tourist run to Hong Kong. In most cases, it's 1-2 years experience with verified references, diploma and provincial background check, non-apostilled. There was a poster about a month ago here that failed to show after his employer paid for round trip ticket. Facebook and instant messaging apps (Kakao) and other websites are spreading the word about dishonest teachers. Hopefully most of you long-termers have F-2s/5s and have started your own schools by now.

Weigookin74

Joined: 26 Oct 2009

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:57 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

JohnML wrote:

This may be true for Korea and Japan but not so much for China. Here's an article that says otherwise

http://www.thebeijinger.com/blog/2015/04/28/china-faces-english-teacher-shortage

Quote:

They need more than 4000 teachers. Korea has 50 million people while China has 1.4 billion people. I think they will need English teachers for some time to come. If China needs more than 100,000 teachers and only 20,000 are going, well, that does open up doors. But, there are bigger discrepancies between tier one, tier two, and tier three cities. In Korea, there are much less discrepancies. If anything, where the cost of living is cheaper, the public schools pay more and where it's more expensive in Seoul and Gyeong gi, they pay less.

Weigookin74

Joined: 26 Oct 2009

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:59 am Post subject:

World Traveler wrote:

Even some public schools are only offering one way airfare:

Quote:

In spite of what I said, there are many who still offer two way airfare. So, either ask for two way or an extra 100,000 won a month in salary or move onto the next job that does.

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