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Glad-4-Vlad
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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 Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
In that class, each of us had a foreign student as a pen pal whom we were all to meet at a party at the end of the semester. After every class, we read letters from our pen pals and wrote letters in return.
After writing my letter, I went up to the professor and said, "My pen pal says, 'I'm looking forward to meet you.' Why is that wrong?"
The professor said, "Aha! You tell me!"
Here is it, five years later, and after reviewing the chapter, I still don't know.
Can anyone help me? |
"to meet" is an infinitive; "to meeting" is a prepositional phrase. The "to" in the above sentence is a preposition, not part of the infinitive, and so must be followed by the object of the preposition, which must be a noun or pronoun or something acting as a noun (such as a verbal acting as noun, as is the case with "to meeting," usage we recognize as a gerund). |
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dogshed
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Gerunds v. Infinitives |
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| Dawn wrote: |
So, I made the mistake of introducing infinitive phrases to my TOEFL-prep class tonight and, in return, got hit with a question that two degrees in English didn't equip me to answer:
Why is it that some verbs in English require a gerund as an object, others require an infinitive, and still others can use either one?
For example ...
She enjoys swimming.
He wants to walk.
She likes walking.
He likes to walk.
Standard English usage requires a gerund in the first sentence, requires an infinitive in the second, and permits either in the third and fourth. One of my Korean co-workers said he had been taught that object choice depended on verb tense, but the four examples above all make use of the same verb tense, so that explanation doesn't seem to jive. |
Camp leader: Kids, for your activity today you can choose walking or shooting.
Kid: I want shooting but she wants walking.
It looks to me like you can want walking.
-Jeff |
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poet13
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Location: Just over there....throwing lemons.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Badmojo. You wrote, "Verbs like enjoy, dislike, mind, and avoid are always followed by gerunds."
I don't understand.
I enjoy long walks in the rain.
I dislike brocoli.
Mind yourself.
Avoid trouble.
Am I missing something? Well, I'm sure I am. My grammar isn't very good. |
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LateBloomer
Joined: 06 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Tomato wrote:
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There is only a shade of meaning between "I like to camp" and "I like camping," but the first has a more remote connotation |
Maybe it's a mental block on my part...... but I don't see the difference. I had this very same discussion the other day relating to "I like to swim and I like swimming." In my mind, the meaning seems identical. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: |
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My stock asnwer has become:
Grammar isn't language, it's just a tool to talk about it. Usage and function are far more important. Besides, language is always changing. Grammar is always behind usage and function. (These are some reasons learning language with a grammar-based approach doesn't work very well. Which is why none of you can use the language worth a damn. You've been studying English how long? Ah, why thank you. Oh, I've never really studied Korean. I also don't get much chance to use it. Ah, well, you see, I actually USE the language, rather than just studyng it.)
I save that bit in ( ) for myself. |
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poet13
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Location: Just over there....throwing lemons.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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EFLtrainer wrote, "Grammar isn't language, it's just a tool to talk about it. Usage and function are far more important. Besides, language is always changing. Grammar is always behind usage and function."
I like that. I will borrow it if I may... |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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How about the 80 - 20 rule?
80% of English can be categorized and or described according to grammatical rules. 20% has no rules, it's just common usage which dictates the form.
However, 80% of spoken English comes from the 20% with no rules.  |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
In that class, each of us had a foreign student as a pen pal whom we were all to meet at a party at the end of the semester. After every class, we read letters from our pen pals and wrote letters in return.
After writing my letter, I went up to the professor and said, "My pen pal says, 'I'm looking forward to meet you.' Why is that wrong?"
The professor said, "Aha! You tell me!"
Here is it, five years later, and after reviewing the chapter, I still don't know.
Can anyone help me? |
For me the rules about when to use the gerund and when to use the infinitive are as confusing as for everyone else so I'm tempted to tell students to shut up and just memorise which verbs go with which. Thanks for the post from Bolinger, tomato, because it's very helpful and also shows even the experts are a bit vague on this one.
But this one is easy. You look forward to something. In other words you need a noun or noun phrase - and the gerund is the verb acting as a noun.
e.g. Noun: 'I look forward to dinner tonight'.
Gerund: 'I look forward to meeting him'.
Mithridates, doggyji, or anyone else who speaks Korean, is there even a distinction in Korean between, as in tomato's example, remembering to shut the door and remembering shutting the door?
문을 닫는 걸 기억 나요 = I remember shutting the door?
Maybe 'I remembered to shut the door' would just be 문을 꼭 닫았어요 or 문을 닫는지 잊지 않았어요? |
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AllOneK
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: |
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It's not a wonder so many people learning English are terrified to speak it when we almighty teachers and trainers can't even explain it properly ourselves - though some of you here have taken a valiant run at the task!
I got stuck with teaching gerund vs infinitive as my final lesson for my CELTA! It took me from a B to a mere Pass!! I've been teaching for five years and I still have to use the book to explain that one, and my books are right now packed in a box in my last country so I can't help other than to recommend the Betty Schrampfer Azar series for explaining grammar in an understandable way.
I do confess, when I get stuck with a st or sts who are in love with grammar rules, I suggest they find the rule and bring it to the next class and teach it to me and the other sts.
My other favorite explanation is as others have said: That's how native speakers talk and if you have to think about the rule before you speak, it slows you down, so let's do some drills using it correctly. Then we do drills and grammar rules be damned! |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Part of the problem in all this is the basic function of verb "tenses": they divide time and create relations between events/object. See? Function!
Some would put it this way: there are two tenses, everything else is aspect. Aspect can sort of be thought of as perspective. To wit, and as tomato already said:
I remembered to open the door.
This is a past statement, right? About what? Remembering. Remembering what? To open the door. So, which happened first? The remembering. Second? The opening. Third? Telling someone that you remembered. The statement is being made in the present going back in time to remembering to do something, then FORWARD in time to when it was done. So, this is used to state something one remembered to do, then did. What did you remember? To open the door.
Mom: Did you remember to open the door?
Son: Yes, I remembered to open the door.
I remembered opening the door.
This is a past statement, right? About what? Telling of a previous recalling of the memory of opening the door. (Egad!) What happens first? Opening the door. Second? Remembering opening the door. Third? Telling someone about remembering opening the door. The statement is being made in the present going back in time in linear fashion. So, this is used to recount successively more distant actions.
(Oh, lord...)
Lawyer: And what did you tell the officer at the time?
Witness: I told him I remembered opening the door.
Lawyer: So, you remember opening the door?
Witness. Yes, I remember opening the door.
Verbs are about TIME. Aspects of TIME. And the key is, WHY are you saying it, and WHEN? I try to get teachers to think about this: what are you trying to get your students to DO? WHY would they say this? Give them a realistic reason for saying something. Contextualize.
With regard to:
I like to camp/camping.
I like to swim/swimming.
Camping and swimming are both categories of actions/hobbies/activities. The infinitive is an action. You can like to swim, but not like all swimming. For example, I might love swimming recreationally, but hate the sport. The gerund form could include the larger connotation of the sport of swimming. The infinitive states a preference.
For example: What sports do you like? I like swimming and basketball.
What sports do you like? I like to swim and to basketball.
Huh?
It has to be: I like to swim and to play basketball. This really answers the question, "What sports do you like to do/play?"
Aigooo... Not sure this is going to help anyone. |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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I took All One K's suggestion by looking it up in Azar, but that wasn't much help.
| Quote: |
We enjoy playing tennis.
playing is used as the object of the verb enjoy.
He's excited about playing tennis.
playing is used as the object of the preposition about.
We talked about going to Canada for our vacation.
Sue is in charge of organizing the meeting.
I'm interested in learning more about your work.
A gerund is frequently used as the object of a preposition.
I'm used to sleeping with the window open.
I'm accustomed to sleeping with the window open.
I look forward to going home next month.
They object to changing their plans at this late date.
to is a preposition, not part of an infinitive form, so a gerund follows.
We talked about not going to the meeting, but finally decided we should go.
Negative form: not precedes a gerund.
I enjoy playing tennis.
Gerunds are used as the objects of certain verbs. enjoy is followed by a gerund (playing). Enjoy is not followed by an infinitive.
INCORRECT: I enjoy to play tennis.
Joe quit smoking.
Joe gave up smoking.
Some two-word verbs, e.g., give up, are followed by gerunds. These two-word verbs are given in parentheses in the list below.
enjoy
appreciate
mind
quit (give up)
finish (get through)
stop
avoid
postpone (put off)
delay
keep (keep on)
consider (think about)
discuss (talk about)
mention
suggest
Stop can also be followed immediately by an infinitive of purpose (in order to).
(1) stop + gerund: When the professor entered the room, the students stopped talking.
The room became quiet.
(2) stop + infinitive of purpose: While I was walking down the street, I ran into an old friend. I stopped to talk to him.
(I stopped walking in order to talk to him.)
Did you go shopping?
We went fishing yesterday.
Go is followed by a gerund in certain idiomatic expressions to express, for the most part, recreational activities.
I hope to see you again soon.
He promised to be here by ten.
He promised not to be late.
Some verbs are followed immediately by an infinitive.
Negative form: not precedes the infinitive.
VERB + (PRO)NOUN + INFINITIVE
Mr. Lee told me to be here at ten o'clock.
The police ordered the driver to stop.
Some verbs are followed by a (pro)noun and then an infinitive.
I was told to be here at ten o'clock.
The driver was ordered to stop.
These verbs are followed immediately by an infinitive when they are used in the passive.
I expect to pass the test.
I expect Mary to pass the test.
Ask, expect, would like, want, and need may or may not be followed by a (pro)noun object.
Intend is usually followed by an infinitive (I intend to go to the meeting) but sometimes may be followed by a gerund (I intend going to the meeting) with no change in meaning.
A gerund is used after advise (active) if there is no (pro)noun object.
He advised buying a Fiat.
He advised me to buy a Fiat.
I was advised to buy a Fiat.
Some verbs may be followed by either an infinitive or a gerund, sometimes with no difference in meaning . . . and sometimes with a difference in meaning.
GROUP A: VERB + INFINITIVE OR GERUND (WITH NO DIFFERENCE IN MEANING)
begin
start
continue
like
love
prefer
hate
can't stand
can't bear
It began to rain.
It began raining.
I started to work.
I started working.
It was beginning to rain.
If the main verb is progressive, an infinitive (not a gerund) is usually used.
GROUP B: VERB + INFINITIVE OR GERUND (WITH A DIFFERENCE IN MEANING)
remember
forget
regret
try
Judy always remembers to lock the door.
Remember + infinitive = remember to perform responsibility, duty, or task.
Sam often forgets to lock the door.
Forget + infinitive = forget to perform responsibility, duty, or task.
I remember seeing the Alps for the first time. The sight was impressive.
Remember + gerund = remember (recall) something that happened in the past.
I'll never forget seeing the Alps for the first time.
Forget + gerund = forget something that happened in the past.
I regret to tell you that you failed the test.
Regret + infinitive = regret to say, to tell someone, to inform someone of some bad news.
I regret lending him some money. He never paid me back.
Regret + gerund = regret something that happened in the past.
I'm trying to learn English.
Try + infinitive = make an effort.
The room was hot. I tried opening the window, but that didn't help. So I tried turning on the fan, but I was still hot. Finally, I turned on the air conditioner.
Try + gerund = experiment with a new or different approach to see if it works.
Notice the patterns with prefer:
prefer + gerund: I prefer staying home to going to the concert.
prefer + infinitive: I prefer to stay home than (to) go to the concert.
Forget followed by a gerund usually occurs in a negative sentece or a question: e.g., "I'll never forget," "I can't forget," "Have you ever forgotten," and "Can you ever forget" can be followed by a gerund phrase.
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Azar, B. S. 1989. Understanding and using English grammar. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hal: 150-152, 154, 156-157, 162.
On pages 168-169, she gives a "reference list of verbs followed by gerunds" and a "reference list of verbs followed by infinitives."
I shall scan those two pages for anyone who is interested.
Still no explanation of why some verbs take gerunds and some verbs take infinitives.
As far as Azar is concerned, the student just has to learn two big long lists.
Sorry. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| tomato wrote: |
I took All One K's suggestion by looking it up in Azar, but that wasn't much help.
///
Still no explanation of why some verbs take gerunds and some verbs take infinitives.
As far as Azar is concerned, the student just has to learn two big long lists.
Sorry. |
That is, I believe, exactly it. Why is language the way it is? Well, while some portion of it has to do with how the brain is wired, the other portion of it has to do with things that started millions of years ago. It's just the way we sorted out how to communicate. And it is always changing. Remember, grammar describes what we are currently doing, with a bit of a lag. Grammar does not describe what we are to do. If that were the case, we'd sit around making up new grammar bits and saying, "Hey! Here's the new way to talk!!!"
Ask yourself: why does Korean put the verb last? Why does Spanish use gender with nouns? Just because. Learn it, live it, love it!
hehe... |
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