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| Is the U.S. now safer? |
| For the time being, but not for long. |
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14% |
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| No, this is all a mirage. |
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73% |
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| Yes, the U.S. has finally taken its blinders off. The war was good for at least one thing. |
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11% |
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| Total Votes : 42 |
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R. S. Refugee

Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Location: Shangra La, ROK
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| By all means investigate Ohio - but also investigate Penn. Where Bush lost by less votes than he won Ohio with,. |
I'm certainly in favor of investigating all states where there was a significant discrepancy between a proven technology -- exit polls -- and the official results. And any states where there are credible claims of fraud and intentional illegal voter suppression.
However, my being in favor of it don't mean squat. I don't expect to see that happen anytime this decade. It would be a real pleasure to see an honest investigation though. In my dreams. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:42 am Post subject: |
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One of my favorite political nicknames is "Landslide Lyndon". He was called that by his friends because he stole just enough votes to win in some early election in Texas.
Vote fraud has a depressingly long history.
I'm all for reform that eliminates it to the maximum degree. There will always be attempts at fraud because the rewards of doing it successfully are so great. That is not a reason not to do our best to prevent it.
I did read the article about the irregularities in Ohio. It does seem to warrant an investigation. I'm not sure it's a good idea though. Just for argument's sake, what if it were found that the GOP stole the election in Ohio? What could be done about it? Would Bush be expected to resign and let Kerry finish out the term? I don't think so. It would lead to a Constitutional crisis at best. Civil war at the worst. I suspect that Gore thought the same thing in 2000 when the Supreme Court made its remarkable decision. |
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R. S. Refugee

Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Location: Shangra La, ROK
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I did read the article about the irregularities in Ohio. It does seem to warrant an investigation. I'm not sure it's a good idea though. Just for argument's sake, what if it were found that the GOP stole the election in Ohio? What could be done about it? Would Bush be expected to resign and let Kerry finish out the term? I don't think so. It would lead to a Constitutional crisis at best. Civil war at the worst. I suspect that Gore thought the same thing in 2000 when the Supreme Court made its remarkable decision. |
Some jail time with maximum sentences at a real prison for felonious evil-doers (i.e. the ones who presumably committed the criminal acts) would probably have some salutory effect on those who might be thinking about it in future. And Nero in the White House would certainly have his legacy though I doubt that he himself committed any criminal acts to get elected.
It would also provide the necessary public outrage to get meaningful election reform passed into law, so that we could trust our electoral process in the future. As it is now, the public has every reason to distrust the outcome of any presidential election just like in a banana republic. All the brain dead rightwing whine-a-babies ridiculing the "reasonable doubters" ain't gonna change that one bit. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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And Nero in the White House would certainly have his legacy though I doubt that he himself committed any criminal acts to get elected.
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Send the actual bad guys to the pokey. No problem with that. Get the public aroused enough to get real election reform. Great!
But you didn't answer the real question. If Bush were proven to have lost Ohio, he would be de-legitimized. What could realistically be done? It would be a Constitutional crisis at least as great as secession. Your wisdom please.
Personally, I'm not willing to take that risk. Wait until 2007 when it will be too late. |
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R. S. Refugee

Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Location: Shangra La, ROK
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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And Nero in the White House would certainly have his legacy though I doubt that he himself committed any criminal acts to get elected.
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Send the actual bad guys to the pokey. No problem with that. Get the public aroused enough to get real election reform. Great!
But you didn't answer the real question. If Bush were proven to have lost Ohio, he would be de-legitimized. What could realistically be done? It would be a Constitutional crisis at least as great as secession. Your wisdom please.
Personally, I'm not willing to take that risk. Wait until 2007 when it will be too late. |
I'm not a constitutional expert and don't claim to know the definitive answer, but since there may not be any constituional mechanism for de-certifying a presidential election that has already been certified, then I could imagine him becoming a very lame-duck president who would be too sheepish to veto electoral reform legislation or to invade any more countries. I could live with that. (But I only expect to see that happen in my dreams.)
Then more legislative power could pass back to the congress whose power has steadily eroded for some time now (not just under Bush). |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Then more legislative power could pass back to the congress whose power has steadily eroded for some time now (not just under Bush).
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You are aware, aren't you, that the GOP holds a majority in both houses of Congress? And in fact, that is where the laws are made. Presidents only pressure for laws, then sign them if they get passed.
BTW, it is far, far cheaper to buy a Representative or Senator than a President. As someone once said, "The definition of an honest politician is that once he's bought, he stays bought." (Or something pithy like that.) |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Is America Safer? |
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| The U.S. is receiving less threats from terrorist groups |
Why would any actual "terrorist" group publically state their intentions before acting ??? You'd think they'd simply simply just do whatever they'd conspired or otherwise cooked up without any forewarning.
Putting "the enemy" on alert would only stand to have their plot foiled. |
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supernick
Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Is the U.S. safer? Safer from who?
I'm sure that some of the security measures have made travel in the U.S. safer, and I'm sure more Americans have become more aware of potential threats, however i for one doubt that America is any safer than it was a few years ago. Even Bush has said that it would be difficult to win the war on terrorism. Taking the battle to them migh look good but is it effective?
I'm sure that there are many Americans who feel that the war in Iraq was needed, as those Americans weren't gonna lay on their backs to watch planes fly into buildings.
America might well be safer these days but I don't think Americans actually feel any safer. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:20 am Post subject: Re: Is America Safer? |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The U.S. is receiving less threats from terrorist groups |
Why would any actual "terrorist" group publically state their intentions before acting ??? You'd think they'd simply simply just do whatever they'd conspired or otherwise cooked up without any forewarning.
Putting "the enemy" on alert would only stand to have their plot foiled. |
I think it has mostly to do with the "chatter" that is picked up via the Internet or through mobile phone traffic. I forget how many threats were mentioned in a typical month from these sources but it seems to be somewhat less now. |
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rookieglobetrotter
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Ohio |
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| I am from Ohio. As the economy worsens here, it is very dangerous esp in the inner city late at night. I heard on the radio news that there was a man selling guns in the neighborhood from an ice cream truck in Cleveland. |
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Jandar

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
| Well, now that cigarette lighters have been banned on US flights I can sleep safely at night. |
Why would you need a cigarette lighter if smoking has been banned for several years?
Yes, I question your motives. |
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Jandar

Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
Ok, wannago, I haven't read your article yet, but I will. In the meantime, here is one that I posted several days ago by a columnist at the SF Chronicle on this topic.
I guess the question for both of us is, "Is one report lying and the other one telling the truth?" or are both of them telling the truth, but one or both of them are spinning so furiously that they are successfully practicing the propagandist's art of creating whatever impression they want regardless of the basic truths.
I am not so naive that I think only rightwingers spin furiously. So why don't we both spend a little effort critiquing and studying these contrasting POVs to try to get at the truth on this issue? It'd probably a good exercise for both of us. And by both of us, I mean anyone who's interested in trying to find some basic truth about this issue.
Cheers.
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Here's something funny, in a rip-your-patriotic-heart-out-and-spit-on-it sort of way: Just last week, BushCo's State Department decided to kill the publication of an annual report on international terrorism. Why? Well, because the government's top terrorism center concluded that there were more terrorist attacks in 2004 than in any year since 1985. Isn't that hilarious? Isn't that heartwarming? Your tax dollars at work, sweetheart.
Lest you forget, this is what they do. They trim. They edit. They censor. BushCo kills what they do not like and fudges negative data where they see fit and completely rewrites whatever the hell they want, and that includes bogus WMD reports and CIA investigations and dire environmental studies and scientific proofs about everything from evolution to abortion and pollution and clean air, right along with miserable unemployment data and all manner of research pointing up the ill health of the nation, the spirit, the world.
Bush Lies, America Cries
This just in: Global terrorism rates are higher
than any time since 1985. Thanks, Dubya!
By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Friday, April 22, 2005
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=%2Fgate%2Farchive%2F2005%2F04%2F22%2Fnotes042205.DTL |
Meanwhile US deaths in Iraq are down 60% in 2008. |
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Gamecock

Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect that the terrorist threat to the United States is not, nor has it ever really been that great. Sure, 9/11 was terrible. But American borders are not exactly the most secure. Millions of Mexicans and others have made their way past the border security illegally since 2001. I simply can't believe that if there were as many people who REALLY wanted to destroy America and commit terrorist acts as we are led to believe, there would have been a SINGLE serious incident over the last 7 years. American intelligence services and defense are pretty good, but not that good. And in a free country, there is only so much that can be done to maintain public safety.
Look at Israel. If a person is determined to be a suicide bomber, it is almost impossible to stop them.
The threat is clearly exaggerated by the United States government for political means. Sure there are alot of extreme Muslims out there who say bad things about America, but much of that is rhetoric. Words for their own political purposes...without any real action. There are a few crazies out there that would like to do stuff, but most don't have the financial means to do so. America is far away, so it is easier to hit targets closer to home.
I would say America is about as safe from terrorism as it was before 9/11. However, I suspect that Americans abroad might find the world a little more of a dangerous place.
Americans need to worry less about terrorism and invest some more time, energy, and resources into finding ways to prevent Americans from killing each other on the street. That's the real problem.
Last edited by Gamecock on Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wangja

Joined: 17 May 2004 Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Jandar wrote: |
| Wangja wrote: |
| Well, now that cigarette lighters have been banned on US flights I can sleep safely at night. |
Why would you need a cigarette lighter if smoking has been banned for several years?
Yes, I question your motives. |
Banned on planes ol' boy.
It is comforting to know that non-smoking cigarette lighter-carrying terrorits are denied access to their weapon. |
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pkang0202

Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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The US is safer now than it was BEFORE 9/11.
Before 9/11, people never believed that terrorists would successfully strike on US soil. Now, we know it can happen, and are doing everything possible to try and prevent it.
I certainly feel safer. I know that when I take my flight home to the US, terrorists aren't going to kick down the cockpit door, and try to use the plane as a missile. |
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