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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| It isn't a gulag of our times. and that is why they did back off from it. Gulag had no place in the converstation. |
They didn't back off, as several of us have shown here. The word gulag has an excellent place in the conversation if it starts people talking.
And it has. It is good when people talk about this.
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| It is on appeal as for the rest they ought to be able to challege their detention before a civilan authority. Somethings need to be fixed , but not everything. |
What you are asking for here - the right to challenge before a civilian authority, as you say - is not all that different from what AI has been asking for.
Something to think about.
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| 3) You have not named one nation that is presently carrying out extrajudicial incarceration on the same scale as the US - it includes not just Gitmo, you know, but also the practice of rendition and the things going on in American-run prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan. |
Most nations in the mid east, and not only there have it worse than GTMO, as for Abu Garaib and Afghanistan they are war zone prisons - probably better than the prisions that were in those nations before the US came.
Anyway the guy was talking about GTMO. |
Despite my entreaties, you have failed to signify even ONE nation in the world right now that is carrying on the kind of extralegal shenanigans on the same scale that we are. Therefore there does not exist in the world today anything similar to the "Gulag Archipelago" except what is being done in the name of the US.
Gitmo is just part of the bigger picture here. There's a very strong possibility it is the tip of the iceberg.
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| 4) You have not so far said a word about the distinction between a metaphorical comparison and drawing an equivalence, though you see (without supporting it) to be saying that Amnesty Int;'s remarks do in fact draw an equivalence. |
He didn't say "like the Gulag" he said it "was the Gulag". |
Dunno about you or where you got your education, but I'm an English teacher and we are aware that a simile is a comparison using "like" or "as" and the word metaphor encompasses a larger range of comparisons.
"My love is red red rose that sweetly blooms in June" is not a confession of horticultural perversity. It is a comparison, not a statement of equivalence.
This is known - this is the English language.
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| 5) Finally, you are back again to snide comments and innuendo in order to call into question my loyalty to my country, completely irrelevant to any discussion here - your standard fallback when you have nothing to support your own case. |
Those who don't condemn the insurgents war can't be peace activists. |
Sure we can be. You say it is so but it is not so - It's a war of agression, so we protest the agressors, not the ones defending their homeland against a country that has lied about the reasons, which you have said many time are in truth motivated by personal gain.
And there is some slight chance of affecting change because we are a free nation only partly consumed by extremism ... at least, so far.
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| Those who worry that the US is too powerful aren't pro US if they also say that any strategic gains in Iraq must be surrendered cause they are ill gotten aren't pro US. |
Non sequiteur, but same answer. Yes, we are ro-US.
Our country is damaged when we commit crimes against humanity. This is because Americans are part of humanity, not separate from it. What is being done to Mr Padilla is not very different in kind froim what is happening to the other human beings in Gitmo. It could happen to one of us someday if it is not challenged.
It is hypocrisy to criticize another country for doing the same things we do, and to not criticize our own country for those things as well. It's a kind of hypocrisy that damages our country. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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They didn't back off, as several of us have shown here. The word gulag has an excellent place in the conversation if it starts people talking.
And it has. It is good when people talk about this. |
they did they said it is not a gulg like the soviets had.
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| What you are asking for here - the right to challenge before a civilian authority, as you say - is not all that different from what AI has been asking for. |
and other stuff.
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| Despite my entreaties, you have failed to signify even ONE nation in the world right now that is carrying on the kind of extralegal shenanigans on the same scale that we are. Therefore there does not exist in the world today anything similar to the "Gulag Archipelago" except what is being done in the name of the US. |
How many are in Chinese or NK prisions. How about mid east nations
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| Gitmo is just part of the bigger picture here. There's a very strong possibility it is the tip of the iceberg. |
The US is at war. I wonder Bob is GTMO and the others worse than the prisons of nations that don't like the US.
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| He didn't say "like the Gulag" he said it "was the Gulag". |
Dunno about you or where you got your education, but I'm an English teacher and we are aware that a simile is a comparison using "like" or "as" and the word metaphor encompasses a larger range of comparisons. [/quote]
Is says it was the Gulag or our times but then when pressed he went back on it.
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"My love is red red rose that sweetly blooms in June" is not a confession of horticultural perversity. It is a comparison, not a statement of equivalence.
This is known - this is the English language. |
It was different the way AI used it - that is why they went back on it.
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| Sure we can be. You say it is so but it is not so - It's a war of agression, so we protest the agressors, not the ones defending their homeland against a country that has lied about the reasons, which you have said many time are in truth motivated by personal gain. |
No you can't.
good spin on those who kill Iraqi shias and Kurds. and who do what ever they can to stop a elections which they can't win.
Saddam , the bathists and the Khomenists and the followers of Bin Laden never gave up their war. That is why it isn't agression.
Besides although the war was done for strategic gain it is the opinon that it would also be good for Iraqis.
by back the Kurds want the US to be there. and the most popular Shia is willing to allow it for now. So what gives the Sunni 's the right to tell other Iraqis what do do?
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| Those who worry that the US is too powerful aren't pro US if they also say that any strategic gains in Iraq must be surrendered cause they are ill gotten aren't pro US. |
Non sequiteur, but same answer. Yes, we are ro-US. |
uh no less powerful compared to Bin Laden and Al Qaida. And you would rather that be.
not pro US.
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| Our country is damaged when we commit crimes against humanity. This is because Americans are part of humanity, not separate from it. What is being done to Mr Padilla is not very different in kind froim what is happening to the other human beings in Gitmo. It could happen to one of us someday if it is not challenged. |
Padilla is an Al Qaida sympathizer at best. And all Al Qaida fightersare criminals and I don't care what happens to them
The US does need to make changes to make sure to that innocents are being caught up, but if someone really is Al Qaida then who cares.
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| It is hypocrisy to criticize another country for doing the same things we do, and to not criticize our own country for those things as well. It's a kind of hypocrisy that damages our country. |
even w/ Gitmo , even with the Patriot act the US is still one of the most free nations in the world. And US actions aren't worse than others during war time . |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Christian home page backs off statement about the parable of the vine!
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| In the first stanza a play is made on the word ��divine�� that is rather nice, recalling Jesus�� parable of the vine, representing Him, and the branches arising from the vine, representing mankind. This is not a literal analogy, as being physically connected, but one that describes the Lord��s status with respect to man, as His Eternal Guide. Even the illumined bow down to Jesus, and follow Him as they go into the depths of their own spirits. The Lord personifies the Father for man, who otherwise can never directly perceive the Almighty. |
Oh my, why did he back off like that?
Joo, the verb we are looking for is 'qualify'. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
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| What you are asking for here - the right to challenge before a civilian authority, as you say - is not all that different from what AI has been asking for. |
and other stuff. |
Other stuff. Do tell.
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| Despite my entreaties, you have failed to signify even ONE nation in the world right now that is carrying on the kind of extralegal shenanigans on the same scale that we are. Therefore there does not exist in the world today anything similar to the "Gulag Archipelago" except what is being done in the name of the US. |
How many are in Chinese or NK prisions. How about mid east nations |
Go ahead and give us some numbers. Don't forget to count the ones in Iraq and Afghanistran, not just Gitmo, and the guys sent to Egypt and Uzbek to be interrogated with the gloves off. Don't forget that CIA has its own covert "airline" just to pick guys up and take them to scary dark rooms in third countries where we can have deniability about what happens.
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| Gitmo is just part of the bigger picture here. There's a very strong possibility it is the tip of the iceberg. |
The US is at war. I wonder Bob is GTMO and the others worse than the prisons of nations that don't like the US. |
You want to justify thebehavior of the best nation in the world by comparing it to the worst ones? Nice job, fella ... do you have any idea what a disservice you are doing to the country you claim to love?
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| He didn't say "like the Gulag" he said it "was the Gulag". |
Dunno about you or where you got your education, but I'm an English teacher and we are aware that a simile is a comparison using "like" or "as" and the word metaphor encompasses a larger range of comparisons. |
Is says it was the Gulag or our times but then when pressed he went back on it. |
I don't think so. I think the AI people handled themselves very well in the face of a very biased media blitz.
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"My love is red red rose that sweetly blooms in June" is not a confession of horticultural perversity. It is a comparison, not a statement of equivalence.
This is known - this is the English language. |
It was different the way AI used it - that is why they went back on it. |
Not different, and they didn't back away. They got a chance to tell the story in more detail, and we can thank Cheney and the neocon syncophants for that - if they had used another word besides gulag the report would have gotten a few paragraphs and then been forgotten about.
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| Those who worry that the US is too powerful aren't pro US if they also say that any strategic gains in Iraq must be surrendered cause they are ill gotten aren't pro US. |
Non sequiteur, but same answer. Yes, we are ro-US. |
uh no less powerful compared to Bin Laden and Al Qaida. And you would rather that be. |
Well, that's a lie about wanting bin Laden to be stronger. You are reaching high up on the top shelf for stale biscuits when a fresh loaf of bread is sitting right on the counter - there's absolutely no danger of bin Laden beinig stronger than America. And Bush wanted to take down Iraq from even before he was elected.
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| Our country is damaged when we commit crimes against humanity. This is because Americans are part of humanity, not separate from it. What is being done to Mr Padilla is not very different in kind froim what is happening to the other human beings in Gitmo. It could happen to one of us someday if it is not challenged. |
Padilla is an Al Qaida sympathizer at best. And all Al Qaida fightersare criminals and I don't care what happens to them |
Well, some of us love our country more than you do, apparently. You refuse to see that what can be done to the worst among us can later be done to the best among us.
mithridates
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Oh my, why did he back off like that?
Joo, the verb we are looking for is 'qualify'. |
The one I prefer is "expand upon," and the more I think about it, the more I believe that someone in the Amnesty office preparing and approving this report for dissemination knew it would push buttons with the warmongering crowd and looked forward with anticipation to the firestorm it would cause. I think they wanted to start a debate and knew that their spokespeople would be called on the carpet by the media over here - the report was actually prepared in the central offices in London, you know - and I think they were happy that the public chastisement gave them a chance to talk about the issue more than would otherwisae be the case.
I'm extrapolating intentions from effects, of course, but it seems logical to me at the moment. What do you think, sound plausible? |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| Joo, according to news reports, the "most popular Shia" has not even met U.S. authorities. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Other stuff. Do tell. |
anything from wire taps or searches should be ok, and they should not have the right not to cooperate.
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| Go ahead and give us some numbers. Don't forget to count the ones in Iraq and Afghanistran, not just Gitmo, and the guys sent to Egypt and Uzbek to be interrogated with the gloves off. Don't forget that CIA has its own covert "airline" just to pick guys up and take them to scary dark rooms in third countries where we can have deniability about what happens. |
I don't have the numbers but neither do you . And the US doesn't send them to Uzbek anyway.
Where is your proof
anyway the US is at war
by way for example Norht Korea has 200,000
so that would make them worse why do you always do your best to make the US seem as bad as possible I know why.
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| You want to justify thebehavior of the best nation in the world by comparing it to the worst ones? Nice job, fella ... do you have any idea what a disservice you are doing to the country you claim to love? |
the US is at war at our worst the US is better than its enemies best.
[quote][quote][
I don't think so. I think the AI people handled themselves very well in the face of a very biased media blitz.
[quote][quote]"My love is red red rose that sweetly blooms in June" is not a confession of horticultural perversity. It is a comparison, not a statement of equivalence.
biased media , ah conspiracy when you don;t like the results
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| Not different, and they didn't back away. They got a chance to tell the story in more detail, and we can thank Cheney and the neocon syncophants for that - if they had used another word besides gulag the report would have gotten a few paragraphs and then been forgotten about. |
they did back away . it can't be a gulag cause they don't have prisoners of conscious.
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| Well, that's a lie about wanting bin Laden to be stronger. |
If the US was not as strong then it would have less power via in relation to Al Qaida.
You worry that the US is too powerful, and that strategic gains are ill gotten and must be returned - case closed.
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| You are reaching high up on the top shelf for stale biscuits when a fresh loaf of bread is sitting right on the counter - there's absolutely no danger of bin Laden beinig stronger than America. |
that is not the question , can the US be stronger in relation to Al Qaida and can the US have the power to force mid east regimes to change their behavior.
You don't want the US to have the ability to force mid east regimes to change their behavior.
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And Bush wanted to take down Iraq from even before he was elected |
False , the US policy was smart sanctions when Bush came to office.
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| Well, some of us love our country more than you do, apparently. You refuse to see that what can be done to the worst among us can later be done to the best among us. |
Not those who refuse to condemn the insurgent and even try to portray them in the best light.
Not those who refuse to condemn nations who were in conflict w/t he US.
and not those who worry that the US is too powerful and say that any strategic gains in Iraq by the US are ill gotten gains that must be returned.
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The one I prefer is "expand upon," and the more I think about it, the more I believe that someone in the Amnesty office preparing and approving this report for dissemination knew it would push buttons with the warmongering crowd and looked forward with anticipation to the firestorm it would cause. I think they wanted to start a debate and knew that their spokespeople would be called on the carpet by the media over here - the report was actually prepared in the central offices in London, you know - and I think they were happy that the public chastisement gave them a chance to talk about the issue more than would otherwisae be the case. |
well there are not the conditions that make it a gulag , Al qaida fighters are not political prisioners.
Al Qaida is a terror hate group - nothing more. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| Joo, according to news reports, the "most popular Shia" has not even met U.S. authorities. |
where did he go when he needed medical treatment? London. not Iran even though he could have gone there. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| And Bush wanted to take down Iraq from even before he was elected |
False , the US policy was smart sanctions when Bush came to office. |
Hm. 
This doesn't make a lick of sense.
"Musician x wanted to become famous in 2000."
"False! Because nobody knew him then!"
Wow, that makes just as much sense. Or do you mean "from the time Bush came to office"? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| why would the US press for smart sanctions if the US was going to invade Iraq from the start? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| No, when you said the US policy was smart sanctions when Bush came into office that would mean that Clinton started it. My best friend writes like you do and so I find it quite charming, but sometimes you give a completely different impression from what you want to say. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
Quote The Bobster :
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| What you are asking for here - the right to challenge before a civilian authority, as you say - is not all that different from what AI has been asking for. |
and other stuff. |
Other stuff. Do tell. |
anything from wire taps or searches should be ok, and they should not have the right not to cooperate. |
I'm not inclined to discuss anything at all with you if you do not respond honestly and with relevance to the topic being addressed.
You said that Amnesty International has been asking for "other stuff" and when I asked you what "other stuff" was you responded with something about wire taps and searches - if I'm not mistaken, I think this is the realm of the ACLU, not Amnesty, and I don't know what you are talking about. I'm not sure you know what you are talking about, either.
If Amnesty International has been talking about such things as wire taps and searches, please give me a link so I can be as educated as you are about it.
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| they did back away . it can't be a gulag cause they don't have prisoners of conscious. |
Wrong. They did not back away. Since you and I don't know the charges or reasons why the men are in Gitmo - and they don't know, either, and neither do their mostly nonexistent lawyers - then you have no basis for saying who is and who is not a prisoner of conscience.
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| Well, that's a lie about wanting bin Laden to be stronger. |
If the US was not as strong then it would have less power via in relation to Al Qaida. |
The two statemewnts have no connection to each other. I don't want America to be weak - strength is not as important as the level of wisdom, maturity, courage, and devotion to justice that motivates the use of that strength. What I have described is in reality true strength, not just the ability to drop bombs on people's homes far away from where we live.
Unfortunately there have been precious few moments when the present leaders of my country have displayed anything close to those things I just mentioned.
Most of the actions of the Bush administration since 9/11 have been stupid, the kind of behavior that resembles a sullen adolescent strolling down Main Street with an Uzi, actions based on fear rather than confidence in ethical self-respect that who we are is sufficient justification for our pre-eminence in the world.
We are a great nation, and not all of the power we exert derives from our military might and our technological prowess. We are one of a handful of nations whose culture derives and expands from the rule of law - that justice is not just a gift from the powerful but the right of all humans - and the Bush administration has repudiated most of this that is the best of us. We who love America need to oppose that.
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| there's absolutely no danger of bin Laden beinig stronger than America. |
that is not the question , can the US be stronger in relation to Al Qaida and can the US have the power to force mid east regimes to change their behavior. |
Actually, this is the only relevant question that would make the current mayhem in any way supportable. And history has shown that political change of the kind you describe cannot long succeed when imposed by force rather than sincere desire on the part of the people who need it.
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| Well, some of us love our country more than you do, apparently. You refuse to see that what can be done to the worst among us can later be done to the best among us. |
Not those who refuse to condemn the insurgent and even try to portray them in the best light. |
You are hallucinating. When did I ever paint a glowing picture of insurgents? Gimme a break, I have always supported the rank-and file American military and my assaults have always been aimed at the malevolence of those who make policy, and the insipid vacuity of those who who parrot the party line.
Being able to understand the logic of resistance to unjust occupation is not the same as portraying them in the best light. That's just silly.
And you have already taken up too much of my time. I do, you see, have a life - whereas you, it would appear have not much else besides The Bobster. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Wrong. They did not back away. Since you and I don't know the charges or reasons why the men are in Gitmo - and they don't know, either, and neither do their mostly nonexistent lawyers - then you have no basis for saying who is and who is not a prisoner of conscience. |
they did back away
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Amnesty USA unsure about Guantanamo
U.S. wing of rights group says comparison to gulag 'not literal' |
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| Schulz said, "We don't know for sure what all is happening at Guantanamo and our whole point is that the United States ought to allow independent human rights organizations to investigate." |
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| Asked about the comparison, Schulz said, "Clearly this is not an exact or a literal analogy." |
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8108375/
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| The two statemewnts have no connection to each other. . |
They are connected because the less power the US has the less power the US has to force behavoir change on the mid east.
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| I don't want America to be weak - strength is not as important as the level of wisdom, maturity, courage, and devotion to justice that motivates the use of that strength. What I have described is in reality true strength, not just the ability to drop bombs on people's homes far away from where we live |
Irrelevent.
They are both strength, but it is a good thing for the US to have the power to force behavior change on mid east regimes and U don't want the US to have it.
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Unfortunately there have been precious few moments when the present leaders of my country have displayed anything close to those things I just mentioned. |
Irrrelevent if they have the power to force behavior change on the mid east then the US would have the power to force behavior change on the mid east . And you don't want the US to have the power to do so.
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| Most of the actions of the Bush administration since 9/11 have been stupid, the kind of behavior that resembles a sullen adolescent strolling down Main Street with an Uzi, actions based on fear rather than confidence in ethical self-respect that who we are is sufficient justification for our pre-eminence in the world. |
who knows , and irrelevent. and there is some reason to fear because Bathists, Khomenists and Bin Laden followers and the similar types are all hate mongering fascist aggressive bigots with no intention of any compromise.
Whether Bush is an idot fool or whatever bad name you want to call him that doesn't change the fact about what the movements listed above and the followers of them.
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| We are a great nation, and not all of the power we exert derives from our military might and our technological prowess. We are one of a handful of nations whose culture derives and expands from the rule of law - that justice is not just a gift from the powerful but the right of all humans - and the Bush administration has repudiated most of this that is the best of us. We who love America need to oppose that. |
Yes but really that has nothing to do with be worried that the US is too powerful and that any strategic gain in Iraq is an ill gotten gain that must be returned.
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| Actually, this is the only relevant question that would make the current mayhem in any way supportable. And history has shown that political change of the kind you describe cannot long succeed when imposed by force rather than sincere desire on the part of the people who need it. |
that was the reason the US in fact went into Iraq. The results are not in .
but notice that Syria kicked out the PKK when Turkey threatend them. Mideast regimes pay the clerics , and control the media and know who the elites are . they know who funds who. They are very powerful within their countires . They can put an end to terror if they want to.
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| You are hallucinating. When did I ever paint a glowing picture of insurgents? |
fighting for their homes against a foreign aggressor, rather than the equally if not more valid description of trying to conquer Iraq for themselves cause they know they can't win an election.
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Being able to understand the logic of resistance to unjust occupation is not the same as portraying them in the best light. That's just silly. |
Tell us why it is them defending their homes and not trying to conquer Iraq.
The Shias and Kurds 80% went for elections , The top Shia doesn't oppose the US being in Iraq while the Kurds which there are as many as there are Sunnis actually want the US to be in Iraq. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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Amnesty USA unsure about Guantanamo
U.S. wing of rights group says comparison to gulag 'not literal' |
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8108375/
The first was the headline I saw. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Joo, I think we can agree that headline writers are idiots.
Amnesty International backs down!
Amnesty Internationalrefuses to back down!
I've been of the opinion that headlines should just say "Amnesty International's comments on the 'gulag' furor" or "report on violence in Iraq from today" as opposed to "most violentest June 5th Iraq has seen for one year!" |
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