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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Not pickpockets, petty kidnappings and murders. Happens all the time now. |
And who is more likely to commit murder and kidnappings? Pickpockets or insurgents? Petty criminals BTW do NOT commit murder and kipnappings. That goes against the definition of "petty".
It is very likely that a good number of the insurgents are also criminals as well. Murder and kidnapping are hallmarks of the insurgency.
Both crime and the insurgency proper work against the U.S. So you have 56.4 % of deaths commited by one "side" and 37.3% on the other. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I remember a while back when the liberals were claiming that 100,000 civilians had been killed. Of course the one source that claimed this was both biased and debunked, but that didn't stop them. Interesting that none of them have come out so far and resubmitted this claim. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| The only person I am aware of who believed that claim of 100,000 was ersatz professor and he's been gone from this board for some time. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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There's also the fact that petty crime, and other forms of crime, come from a lack of security and that started when?
A lot of kidnappings occur apparently as people wait in line for gas. Usually they will demand a few thousand dollars and though families there aren't doing well now, most of them have jewelry and whatnot from when they used to be prosperous.
So no, one is not allowed to look at any criminal-related death and say 'there's another insurgent!' Iraq's big. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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The deaths among Iraqis is actually lower than when Saddam was in power
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/20053723.asp
The Civilian Death Toll in Iraq
March 7, 2005
Since Saddam Hussein and his Baath Party were removed from power in 2003, there have been about 1,300 deaths among the coalition forces, and between 20-25,000 for Iraqis. The Iraqi deaths include about 5,000 killed during the 2003 invasion. Of the remainder, about half are Sunni Arabs (most of them Iraqi, plus a few Shia Arabs) killed while fighting coalition forces as terrorists. Another five thousand or so are Iraqis killed by the terrorists, and the remainder are Iraqi civilians caught in the cross fire. The deaths among Iraqis is actually lower than when Saddam was in power. During his three decades of rule, Saddam killed half a million Kurds, and several hundred thousand Shia Arabs (and several thousand Sunni Arabs and Christian Arabs). During the 1990s, Saddam used access to food and medical care as a way to keep the Shia Arabs under control, but this process caused twenty thousand or more excess deaths a year (from disease and malnutrition). Foreign media, especially in Sunni Moslem nations, tend to play with these numbers. That is, they downplay the deaths inflicted by Saddam, inflate those that occurred during the 1990s and blame it on the UN, and greatly inflate the number of Iraqi civilians killed during coalition military operations. But Iraqis on the scene provide more accurate numbers, which are the ones presented here. A lot of the documentation for these stats will come out during the war crimes trials of Saddam and his key aides. |
some perspective pls.
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61,000 Baghdad residents executed by Saddam: survey
December 10, 2003
Saddam Hussein's government may have executed 61,000 Baghdad residents, a figure much higher than previously believed, a new study suggests.
The bloodiest massacres of Saddam's 23-year presidency occurred in Iraq's Kurdish north and Shi'ite Muslim south, but the Gallup Baghdad Survey data indicates the brutality also extended into the capital.
The survey asked 1178 Baghdad residents in August and September whether a member of their household had been executed by Saddam's regime, with 6.6 per cent saying yes.
The polling firm took metropolitan Baghdad's population of 6.39 million people, and average household size of 6.9 people, to calculate that 61,000 people were executed during Saddam's rule.
Past estimates were in the low tens of thousands. Most are believed to have been buried in mass graves.
The US-led occupation authority in Iraq has said at least 300,000 people were buried in mass graves in Iraq.
Human rights officials put the number closer to 500,000, and some Iraqi political parties estimate more than 1 million people were executed.
Without exhumations of the mass graves, it is impossible to confirm a figure.
Scientists said during a recent investigation that they had confirmed 41 mass graves on a list of suspected sites that covers 270 locations.
Forensic teams will begin to exhume four of those graves next month, searching for evidence for a new tribunal, expected to be established this week, that will try members of the former regime for crimes against humanity and genocide.
More graves will later be added to the list. |
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/09/1070732211173.html?from=storyrhs&oneclick=true
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| He has been anything but circumspect about his aspirations: He has stated that he wants to turn Iraq into a "superpower" that will dominate the Middle East, to liberate Jerusalem and to drive the United States out of the region. He has said he believes the only way he can achieve his goals is through the use of force. Indeed, his half-brother and former chief of intelligence, Barzan al-Tikriti, was reported to say that Iraq needs nuclear weapons because it wants "a strong hand in order to redraw the map of the Middle East." |
http://www.travelbrochuregraphics.com/extra/a_last_chance_to_stop_iraq.htm |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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What? Saddam was a horrible mass-murderer? Quelle surprise! 
Luckily I know math!
| Quote: |
Saddam Hussein's government may have executed 61,000 Baghdad residents, a figure much higher than previously believed, a new study suggests.
The bloodiest massacres of Saddam's 23-year presidency occurred in Iraq's Kurdish north and Shi'ite Muslim south, but the Gallup Baghdad Survey data indicates the brutality also extended into the capital.
The survey asked 1178 Baghdad residents in August and September whether a member of their household had been executed by Saddam's regime, with 6.6 per cent saying yes.
The polling firm took metropolitan Baghdad's population of 6.39 million people, and average household size of 6.9 people, to calculate that 61,000 people were executed during Saddam's rule. |
61,000 / 23 = 2652 per year. According to the report, 11,264 of the deaths have been in Iraq with 37% from coalition forces, making 4168 over 2 1/3 years, = 1767 per year. I guess 1767 is better than 2652.
"We are invading weaponless Iraq because the death toll needs to be reduced by 33% at the cost of somewhere around $100 billion a year and 700 military casualties for the near future, and possibly to give them the opportunity to enforce Sharia law."
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Off Course in Iraq
Published: July 21, 2005
Most of the Bush administration's justifications for invading Iraq have turned out to be wrong. But the one surviving argument for overthrowing Saddam Hussein has been an important one: it was a chance to bring freedom and equality to the citizens suffering under a brutal dictatorship. For those of us holding onto that hope, this week brought disheartening news on multiple fronts.
Most chilling of all are the prospects for Iraqi women. As things now stand, their rights are about to be set back by nearly 50 years because of new family law provisions inserted into a draft of the constitution at the behest of the ruling Shiite religious parties. These would make Koranic law, called Shariah, the supreme authority on marriage, divorce and inheritance issues. Even secular women from Shiite families would be stripped of their right to choose their own husbands, inherit property on the same basis as men and seek court protection if their husbands tire of them and decide to declare them divorced.
Less severe laws would be imposed on Sunni women, but only because the draft constitution also embraces the divisive idea of having separate systems of family law in the same country. That is not only offensive, but also impractical in a country where Sunnis and Shiites have been marrying each other for generations.
Unless these draft provisions are radically revised, crucial personal freedoms that survived Saddam Hussein's tyranny are about to be lost under a democratic government sponsored and protected by the United States. Is this the kind of freedom President Bush claims is on the march in the Middle East? Is this the example America hopes Iraq will set for other states in the region? Is this the result that American soldiers, men and women, are sacrificing their lives for?
Women are not the only ones facing big losses in the new Iraq. The Sunni minority continues to be treated with contempt and suspicion because it enjoyed a privileged position under the old Baathist dictatorship. It took considerable American pressure to get a fair share of Sunnis, as members and consultants, added to the committee working on the new constitution. Two of those appointed Sunnis were assassinated by insurgents this week, and yesterday the others temporarily suspended their participation, citing security concerns.
In considering whether to put their lives on the line again, these Sunnis will not be encouraged by the latest destructive antics of Ahmad Chalabi, the former American favorite who is now a powerful deputy prime minister. Mr. Chalabi, who has long advocated barring even low-level former Baathists from official employment, has now succeeded in disrupting and discrediting the judicial tribunal preparing for the trial of Mr. Hussein. He is pressing for the dismissal of senior staff members, including a top judge, because of former Baathist associations.
The single most crucial requirement for Mr. Hussein's trial is preserving the appearance of impartial justice in the name of the whole Iraqi nation. Mr. Chalabi's actions, which his nominal boss, Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari, seems powerless to oppose, risk turning the proceedings into a tawdry spectacle of sectarian revenge, which would only fuel divisive and deadly hatreds.
Mr. Bush owes Americans a better explanation for what his policies are producing in Iraq than tired exhortations to stay the course and irrelevant invocations of Al Qaeda and the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Most days, the news from Iraq is dominated by suicide bombers and frightening scenes of carnage. Occasionally, the smoke clears for a day or two to reveal the underlying picture. That looks even scarier. |
Still, here's hoping that things turn out there somehow. Being without electricity in the summer sucks. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
There's also the fact that petty crime, and other forms of crime, come from a lack of security and that started when?
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You're talking about Iraqi civilians killing other Iraqi civilians, - then blaming that on the U.S.
The increased random crime rate is still dwarfed by the state sanctioned organised genocide that would be continuing under Saddam. The U.S can't be held responsible for the fact that some Iraqis are abusing their newfound freedoms. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| What I'm saying is that if someone want to tally that up as insurgent numbers that you could also look at it the other way as well. In any case they are just criminals. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Most of Saddam's killings were before 1993 - i.e. in the fall-out of the post-Gulf War uprising or when he was the US's de facto ally. His killing rate during the time when he was Uncle Sam's boogyman was much lower.
The US has already caused more violent deaths in Iraq than Saddam did in his last decade in power. The figures listed in this report are only documented deaths, and the real number is in fact far higher, whereas the commonly quoted 300,000 deaths under Saddam may be accurate, but could also be an exaggeration. |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Civilians Bear Brunt of Iraqi Insurgency
Irbil -- Iraqi civilians and police officers are being killed by insurgents at a rate of more than 800 a month - one an hour, according to new figures released by the interior ministry.
http://www.aina.org/news/20050715125015.htm |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| and were those insurgents doing that before the USA became involved? No. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| What I'm saying is that if someone want to tally that up as insurgent numbers that you could also look at it the other way as well. In any case they are just criminals. |
What other way? Are you attempting to state that the criminals could be seen as supporting the U.S.? Both the criminals and the insurgents are anti-U.S. And like I said there is a very high possibility that many are members of both groups. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| and were those insurgents doing that before the USA became involved? No. |
They were killing people before the U.S. became involved, it was just government sanctioned. Many of these insurgents are believed to be members of Saddam's army or police force. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| What I'm saying is that if someone want to tally that up as insurgent numbers that you could also look at it the other way as well. In any case they are just criminals. |
What other way? Are you attempting to state that the criminals could be seen as supporting the U.S.? Both the criminals and the insurgents are anti-U.S. And like I said there is a very high possibility that many are members of both groups. |
You're giving them way too much credit. Criminals on the whole think about money, not geopolitics. If soldiers were weak they would probably prey on them too, but abducting regular people is way better and there's no reprisal either. |
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