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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:10 am Post subject: |
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israel supported hamas when it began, thinking hamas would be a good substitute for the PLO at the time. It thought wrong.
There would be no Hizballah had Israel not invaded Lebanon.
Not to excuse the Palestinians or people of those two organizations; point merely being both sides have reaped what they have sown. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| bignate wrote: |
| I am sure that most Palestinians would like to go about there day without an Israeli Air to Surface Missle cutting into their daily lives and blowing everything to smitherines.... Just a thought |
Such attacks generally occur on Hamas and other terrorist leaders. Palestinian suicide bombers generally target civilians. Try again. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Not to excuse the Palestinians or people of those two organizations; point merely being both sides have reaped what they have sown. |
Yes, the lesson that both Israel and the US need to learn is not to fund Islamic groups or nations, as they will surely one day turn their Jihad against you. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:19 am Post subject: |
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I think the point he is making is that an israeli missile just like a terrorist bomber is a dumb weapon. It just kills anyone in its vicinity, without asking who they are. You target a specific target and kill innocents. The Israeli's the militants, the bombers the state of Israel. :  both kill innocents with the guilty. |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Such attacks generally occur on Hamas and other terrorist leaders. Palestinian suicide bombers generally target civilians. Try again. |
As Summerwine pointed out, a missle does not have pin point accuracy, and though generally they target militants, generally, it isn't just the militant who dies.. I don't support anyone blowing up a bus, so there is no need to argue which is better or worse, they are both violent actions where innocent people die...
My point is that neither is better than the other and arguing that they are doesn't really achieve anything. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| both kill innocents with the guilty. |
Kids eating pizza and civilians sipping cafe latte outside a roadside cafe are guilty? Of what exactly? Oh yes, I forgot, being Jews!
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| there is no need to argue which is better or worse, they are both violent actions where innocent people die... |
Yes, there is, because your logic is absurd. It is the kind of logic that would equate a drunk driver recklessly hitting a kid on a bike and a paedophile raping and killing a small boy. Since in both cases, innocents were killed, they are both equally bad. To take such a position is morally repugnant.
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| My point is that neither is better than the other |
A more nuanced and informed position would surely be that while Israeli attacks on Hamas leaders regrettably result in innocent deaths, they are not equatable with the quite deliberate targeting of civilians, with the desired intent of killing as many of those civilians as possible.
Motives and intention are important, which is why murder is a more serious crime than manslaughter. To take away intent is to lead down a very dangerous path, where the only thing taken into account is numbers. Such logic would lead you to conclude that the Allied bombing of German cities was equivalent to the horrors of Belsen, or Dachau, simply because there were similar body counts. This would ignore German fault for starting the war and their systematic attempt to wipe out an entire nation. But since we're just talking numbers, I guess that's all irrelevant.
But then people who make spout this moral equivalence are usually blinded by an all-encompassing bias against the Jewish state that obscures all their logical faculties. |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:30 am Post subject: |
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So you feel that we should ignore the problems inherent in the situation and just focus on killing? Don't look at the fact that there are deeper problems than the motivations of both sides?
Both sides are wrong, the fact that terrorists kill Israel, and other Arab citizens when they use suicide bombings as a tactic can be considered more wrong. So what? it doesn't solve the problems. To look past the morality of the situation and try to solve the problems is a useful stance. Because in the end, if we look at it solely in who is more right, people will continue to die.
I don't think I am blinded by any kind of hatred for the Jewish state, which is more than I can say for you, who has a desperate hate on for anything Islam....
Nuanced and informed you say, more right than wrong, and the numbers that are killed continue to rise, but you can say I supported the more right side, well good for you. I'd rather look at a solution where no one has to die, and surely no one innocent has to die. The whole problem that surrounds this issue is the preaching of morality in lieu of effective discourse because no one is willing to be seen as wrong. I no more support a Palestinian militants call for the destruction of Israel, than I do an Israeli hawk who orders an artillery barrage on a densely populated Gaza town, because there is a chance that he can kill a Hamas leader who might be in the area.
I do on the other hand support the normal Palestinian and Israeli who has had enough of the blame game and the war and the terror. These are the people who suffer. I could careless for Hamas or any other terrorist who is killed (particularly now with their overt Political goals), but they are not the ones who live in terror, and that is the truth. Hamas is using terror, Israel is using terror and there are no winners, because they both feel that they are right in their actions.
It is repugnant to sit there and say it is OK to kill innocents for the right reasons, because you are only allowing yourself the benefit of your own biased perspective. There is more to this issue than right or wrong. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Don't look at the fact that there are deeper problems than the motivations of both sides? |
But that's not what we were discusing were we? You were equating the deliberate targetting of civilians with the Israeli targetting of Hamas, that often ends up killing innocents. I simply pointed out to you that this was a absurd position to take.
Besides, the motives of the protagonists are important. If one side is committed to the total destruction of the other, it tells you something about the chances for peace while such groups continue to exist.
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| To look past the morality of the situation and try to solve the problems is a useful stance. |
I agree, and solving these problems involves concessions and compromise on both sides. I just get sick of the bias against Israel which is rarely based on reasoned argument but the kind of absurd logic and moral inversion you have demonstrated.
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| who has a desperate hate on for anything Islam.... |
Not hatred old boy, but a deep mistrust for an inherently oppressive and intolerant philosophy. If you want to know about hatred, read about the lives of black Christians in Southern Sudan, or Nigerian Christians after another of their churches has been torched. I suggest you stop with the liberal knee-jerk reaction to (God forbid!) criticism of Islam, and instead respond with reasoned debate about why I am wrong.
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| I'd rather look at a solution where no one has to die |
I'm all ears for your solution to world peace. How will you persuade Hamas and Islamic Jihad to give up their aims of destroying Israel? In the meantime, Israel will continue to have the right to defend itself from such people.
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| Hamas is using terror, Israel is using terror |
There you go again with the ignorant, moral inversion. Hamas targets civilians with a view to killing as many as possible, Israel targets terrorist leaders which sometimes result in bystanders getting killed. You are still unwilling to recognise this difference.
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| It is repugnant to sit there and say it is OK to kill innocents for the right reasons |
But I never said that. I said that there was a difference between deliberately targeting civilians and Israeli actions which result in innocents dieing. Killing innocents is never OK, but it is sometimes unavoidable.
Moreover, you cannot take morality out of the equation, although I know this is fashionable among certain leftist circles. This is indeed what multiculturalism and cultural relativity is based on. However, in this situation certain actions are morally wrong, and can never be justified or sanctioned. The deliberate targetting of civilians is one such action. |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Besides, the motives of the protagonists are important. If one side is committed to the total destruction of the other, it tells you something about the chances for peace while such groups continue to exist. |
Right, now don't you think that the Israelis, by killing Palestinians are not only helping Hamas in its goal of gaining mainstream support amongst Palestinians? They kill a Hamas militant and in the process kill people who have nothing at all to do with the extremist motivations of Hamas. What does this do? provides and oppourtunity for an extension of the Hamas line into more and more Palestinians. As I said, they are right in being wrong, it is not a solution, it is revenge and in the end it isn't solving the problem it is just extending the problem.
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| I agree, and solving these problems involves concessions and compromise on both sides. I just get sick of the bias against Israel which is rarely based on reasoned argument but the kind of absurd logic and moral inversion you have demonstrated. |
Yes it does, it requires concessions on both sides. And that is occurring, thankfully, on both sides. The Israelis have moved out of Gaza, but they wouldnot have done it if they didn't want to, the PA has passed legislation to prevent illegal weaponry in the strip, and they are in the process of a serious enforcement of this policy. But it will take time and energy and their ability to enforce the policies is hampered when Israel, the much stronger of the two attacks Palestinians because now, they see their weaponry as neccessary for protection.
It is also hopeful that in the electoral polls of the last week that Hamas had a very limited turnout for the leadership of the PA. I think this shows, though in a limited scope, that people's minds are changing, they want peace and they want to live alongside Israel, yet the actions of militants are ruining their hope.
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| I'm all ears for your solution to world peace. How will you persuade Hamas and Islamic Jihad to give up their aims of destroying Israel? In the meantime, Israel will continue to have the right to defend itself from such people. |
But you are not, you support Israel implicitly, without considering any reason why someone would strap explosives to themselves and blow themselves and others up... How would I persuade Hamas and Islamic Jihad to give up their war, not by fueling the fire and tossing errant artillery rounds into a Gaza suburb, killing women and children along with a militant. It isn't something that can be solved, unless total extermination is the result, with weaponry.
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| There you go again with the ignorant, moral inversion. Hamas targets civilians with a view to killing as many as possible, Israel targets terrorist leaders which sometimes result in bystanders getting killed. You are still unwilling to recognise this difference. |
No matter wether you agree or not is the use of violence and intimidation to inculcate fear for political, ideological, or religious ends. Israel firing rockets or artillery into a Gaza city, is state terror. Hamas, blowing up a bus in Jerusalem is terror. Of course there is a distinction, but they are both terror, they both come from different motivations, and they are both used to cause fear amongst the respective populous' citizenry. It doesn't make it right that Israel is targeting a militant, because, in the end they know and everyone knows that when you fire a rocket into a densely populated area, there are going to be collateral deaths, but they do it anyways. There is a difference, but they are also both terrorist actions.
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| However, in this situation certain actions are morally wrong, and can never be justified or sanctioned. The deliberate targetting of civilians is one such action. |
I totally agree with you, but in the end what does it matter if they are wrong? Is the release of military hardware into a civilian populous outside of declared war, knowing full well that civilians will likely die, though not deliberate, unjustified and somewhat negligent? They will continue occur and more and more people will die. The terror used by both sides will continue to fuel the other, one or both have to stop.
The actions of Hamas early last week were met expiditiously and ferocity by Israel, after which Hamas declared their intention to stop (though I to do not trust them, they have to this point in time complied). Yet Israel continued to attack and to arrest Palestinians and the IDF shot an unarmed 13 year old the other day, yet do you think this will deter Hamas? No it won't because it hasn't worked thus far and it won't ever work. My original post was meant to give balance to the discussion and I feel that is what is needed to understand and finally solve this issue. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| They kill a Hamas militant and in the process kill people who have nothing at all to do with the extremist motivations of Hamas. |
What do you suggest they do while their citizens are being blown up in cafes and buses? As recent Israeli actions have shown, Hamas only stopped when Israel responded to their actions with force.
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| But you are not, you support Israel implicitly |
I support their rights to defend themselves from Hamas attacks and to take what actions that are necessary to severely damage the capability of that organisation.
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| they want to live alongside Israel |
On what do you base this opinion? It is rather naive to say the least, especially when you consider what they teach their children at PA schools and what is broadcast on PA television. Much of it calls for the outright destruction of Israel.
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| Of course there is a distinction, but they are both terror, they both come from different motivations, and they are both used to cause fear amongst the respective populous' citizenry. |
No, only one is, the other is used to take out the infrastructure and capacity of Hamas to wage future attacks. Its primary motivation is not to cause terror amongst the Palestinians. If that was the case, then Israel would be indiscriminately attacking Palestinians, yet they are not.
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| There is a difference, but they are also both terrorist actions. |
I hate to repeat myself, but they are not, and you are ignoring facts to suit your needs. Anyway, I'll stop flogging this dead horse, since you are unable to recognise indiscrinate attacks on civilians and targetted attacks on terrorist positions. |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Gotta go, Albama's Playing Florida, besides, we are going in circles here - so there is no point.
Cheers |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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The Tide is rolling over the gators. Just hope they don't pull an LSU and have a massive choke job in the 2nd half.
(btw not a tide fan, just a gator hater) |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
The Tide is rolling over the gators. Just hope they don't pull an LSU and have a massive choke job in the 2nd half.
(btw not a tide fan, just a gator hater) |
Crap Prothro just broke his leg, man talk about ugly....  |
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My 2 Cent
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:55 am Post subject: |
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bigverne:
What do you suggest they do while their citizens are being blown up in cafes and buses? As recent Israeli actions have shown, Hamas only stopped when Israel responded to their actions with force.
as hamas has shown, israel only understands force to cut its loses and evacuate areas that is internatilaly recognized as occupied land.
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I support their rights to defend themselves from Hamas attacks and to take what actions that are necessary to severely damage the capability of that organisation.
Israel has always used polices of disproportinate retalitiation and pre-emption in dealing wiht the Palestanians... you sound like an Sharon govt official or a brainwashed liduknik. Your language is complete 'news-speak' -- for all the political bullshit rhetoric you use, the reality is the israeli govt have contacts with Hamas and channels of communication. Behind the media spin, israel acknowlegde Hamas, and Hamas acknowledge Israel.
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On what do you base this opinion? It is rather naive to say the least, especially when you consider what they teach their children at PA schools and what is broadcast on PA television. Much of it calls for the outright destruction of Israel.
Hmm how ironic -- you are one of the people who loves bibi netanyahu for saying a Palestianian state should never come into existance in the first place!
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No, only one is, the other is used to take out the infrastructure and capacity of Hamas to wage future attacks. Its primary motivation is not to cause terror amongst the Palestinians. If that was the case, then Israel would be indiscriminately attacking Palestinians, yet they are not.
More than half of the over 3000 palestanians killed in the recent intifida were under the age of 18, and the majority were unarmed.
get your facts straight.
Aslo there is no definition of the word 'terrorism'.... not according to the US, UN, or anybody.
Perhaps a possible defintion could be 'terrorism: poor mans war'?
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I hate to repeat myself, but they are not, and you are ignoring facts to suit your needs. Anyway, I'll stop flogging this dead horse, since you are unable to recognise indiscrinate attacks on civilians and targetted attacks on terrorist positions.
You are a patronising idiot.
Hitler didnt liquidate jews, it was his responce to a labor crisis by setting up camps to help people... anybody can rationalise facts to suit themselves... its quite sad really you just make up things are you go along... you probably don;t even believe your own spindoctoring. I met many jewish people who are otherwise liberal but endlessly make up excuses for the israeli regime (the middle easts only ethnocracy --- yes sorry to burst your bubble : its not a democracy). Psycholgists would say this is a defence mechanism, that makes human rationalise various facts to fit into something when one is in denial about something one has spent so much energy trying to believe in.
Zionism was born out of the colonalist 19th century. its core ideals and philsophy are an anethma to modern 21st century liberal democratic thought.
The dream of a zionist paradise died in 1967... a state where jews would be safe and free is now pursusing policies that make it one of the unsafest places for jews to live in. Tragic but factual irony. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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My 2=Cent, there is a quote button and it is very useful.
e.g.
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| I am just so good I amaze even myself |
I had to be told how to use it before and it is so useful.
You push the quote button, add in what you need to say and then push it again. If you bold it first and then quote it, you just need to end by pushing the bold button and it will put in the final quote mark.
Try it, its so much easier. |
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