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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| manlyboy wrote: |
I was once assigned janitorial duties along with another teacher. He whined and did a really crappy job of it; I got stuck into it and did a pretty decent job. Not long after that I got a raise, and he didn't.
The moral is that if you can't be trusted to do those sh*tty little jobs properly, then you can't be trusted to do the important tasks properly either.
No one wants to work with a person who's only going to make an effort if and when it suits them. |
But that doesn't fit here. We are hired to teach English not clean floors. It is possible to do a bad job of cleaning floors and a good job teaching English. Basically it is a violation of your contract. If someone wants to clean fine, but he should at least insist on getting paid for it. People who just give in, are setting a precedent for other foreigners being forced into this kind of work.
On the other hand I don't agree with making up excuses. I'd simply tell them "No. My E-2 visa only allows me to teach English." Simple, true and easy. |
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matthews_world
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Ajummas are there to empty trash cans and mop floors once in awhile. They hardly do any heavy physical labor.
Show some balls and go in and help your boss. Your kindness may help you in the end. |
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fusionbarnone
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes, coming up with a 'credible" excuse, is the best way to help the boss save face. Otherwise, "his" (the boss') "open" interpretation surrounding contractual matters will be out in the open(public/co-worker scrutiny).
This strategy doesn't negatively impact on teaching(paid specialization) and succeeds in keeping the internal harmony flowing(a bottle of whisky helps too).
However, if all else fails, strict adherance to contractual outlines should be observed.
As a foreign language specialist(i.e., you) the teacher must equally consider face(your own to save). Otherwise, you are in danger of denigrating your right to a respected position(in Korean society teachers are respected) by good naturedly pandering to the psychological needs of an egoist(happily, from my experience they seem far and wide between).
The last thing you need is too find yourself sufficiently "softened up" to do after hours proofreading for the boss' friends(favors begets favors amongst Koreans; you do the donkey work for nil) or, writing a book as a "favor", not including a myriad of other creative dittis to keep the overpaid/underworked/possibly-one-term-waygook, busy.
If something bothers you, face is involved if I understand it correctly. |
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fusionbarnone
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes, coming up with a 'credible" excuse, is the best way to help the boss save face. Otherwise, "his" (the boss') "open" interpretation surrounding contractual matters will be out in the open(public/co-worker scrutiny).
This strategy doesn't negatively impact on teaching(paid specialization) and succeeds in keeping the internal harmony flowing(a bottle of whisky helps too).
However, if all else fails, strict adherance to contractual outlines should be observed.
As a foreign language specialist(i.e., you) the teacher must equally consider face(your own to save). Otherwise, you are in danger of denigrating your right to a respected position(in Korean society teachers are respected) by good naturedly pandering to the psychological needs of an egoist(happily, from my experience in Korea, they seem far and wide between).
The last thing you need is too find yourself sufficiently "softened up" to do after hours proofreading for the boss' friends(favors begets favors amongst Koreans; you do the donkey work for nil) or, writing a book as a "favor", not including a myriad of other creative dittis to keep the overpaid/underworked/possibly-one-term-waygook, busy.
If something bothers you, face is involved if I understand it correctly. |
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fusionbarnone
Joined: 31 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 12:01 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes, coming up with a 'credible" excuse, is the best way to help the boss save face. Otherwise, "his" (the boss') "open" interpretation surrounding contractual matters will be out in the open(public/co-worker scrutiny).
This strategy doesn't negatively impact on teaching(paid specialization) and succeeds in keeping the internal harmony flowing(a bottle of whisky helps too).
However, if all else fails, strict adherance to contractual outlines should be observed.
As a foreign language specialist(i.e., you) the teacher must equally consider face(your own to save). Otherwise, you are in danger of someone denigrating your right to a respected position(in Korean society teachers are respected) by good naturedly pandering to the psychological needs of an egoist(happily, from my experience in Korea, they seem far and wide between). If you have to "do work" make sure there is something in it for you.
The last thing you need is to find yourself sufficiently "softened up"(through neglecting to offer sufficient opposition to unprofession related demands) to do after hours proofreading for the boss' friends(favors begets favors amongst Koreans; you do the donkey work for nil) or, writing a book as a "favor", not including a myriad of other creative dittis to keep the overpaid/underworked/possibly-one-term-waygook, busy.
If something bothers you, face is involved if I understand it correctly. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| matthews_world wrote: |
| Show some balls and go in and help your boss. Your kindness may help you in the end. |
How does helping the boss (upon his request) "show some balls"? Really. That would be more consistant with politely refusing. That would take more "balls". If you do it this one time, then you will be asked to all the time. Most bosses do this as a way of testing the waters and seeing what they can get away with. |
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matthews_world
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| If you do it this one time, then you will be asked to all the time. Most bosses do this as a way of testing the waters and seeing what they can get away with. |
"Show some balls" maybe wasn't the phrase I was looking for, but before the OP is to complete the aformentioned task, they should be asking themselves "Will I be negatively affecting relations with my school, boss, and co-workers by not taking part?" |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| fusionbarnone wrote: |
| ... unless your entire office/teaching co-workers are doing this, I think you are being bullied. |
All staff are going to participate: the boss, his wife, the secretary and five foreign teachers. I'm not being singled out in any way.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Basically it is a violation of your contract. If someone wants to clean fine, but he should at least insist on getting paid for it. People who just give in, are setting a precedent for other foreigners being forced into this kind of work. |
I don't see it as violation of my contract because under the 'Duties' section the last clause states - "To perform other duties as designated by [the] employer." I realise this clause is 'open ended' and can be interpreted to mean virtually anything. However, I am positive our one-time cleaning session is just that - a special situation brought about by the the official 'Grand Opening' on Wednesday; plus, I AM being paid for it. Tuesday is a work day.
In the past, in Canada, I've worked in unionised (university) and nonunion (commercial fishing) sectors of the labour market. While I'm sure some will disagree, I feel the "That's not my job" position has done far more harm than good. To illustrate, here are two extreme examples: Canadian university students are paying through the nose for tuition partly because it literally takes a qualified electrician AND a helper to change a light bulb. I'm still alive because on a commercial fishing vessel, in the middle of the north Pacific during a January storm, it's unthinkable to take that position. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| cruisemonkey wrote: |
| fusionbarnone wrote: |
| ... unless your entire office/teaching co-workers are doing this, I think you are being bullied. |
(1)All staff are going to participate: the boss, his wife, the secretary and five foreign teachers. I'm not being singled out in any way.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Basically it is a violation of your contract. If someone wants to clean fine, but he should at least insist on getting paid for it. People who just give in, are setting a precedent for other foreigners being forced into this kind of work. |
(2) I don't see it as violation of my contract because under the 'Duties' section the last clause states - "To perform other duties as designated by [the] employer." I realise this clause is 'open ended' and can be interpreted to mean virtually anything. However, I am positive our one-time cleaning session is just that - a special situation brought about by the the official 'Grand Opening' on Wednesday; plus, I AM being paid for it. Tuesday is a work day.
(3) In the past, in Canada, I've worked in unionised (university) and nonunion (commercial fishing) sectors of the labour market. While I'm sure some will disagree, I feel the "That's not my job" position has done far more harm than good. To illustrate, here are two extreme examples: Canadian university students are paying through the nose for tuition partly because it literally takes a qualified electrician AND a helper to change a light bulb. I'm still alive because on a commercial fishing vessel, in the middle of the north Pacific during a January storm, it's unthinkable to take that position. |
Numbers are mine.
(1) What about the Korean teachers? You didn't mention them. Regardless just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean you have to. But if you want to by all means go ahead. It does make one wonder why you posted on Dave's in the first place but ok.
2. Pardon me, I meant "violation of [your visa]"
Your contract is not the be-all and end-all when it comes to what work you can do. Your VISA takes precedence. To use an example if the boss wanted you to work in a nightclub and serve drinks that would be a violation of your work visa, despite the clause about "other duties". It is understood that those "other duties" are to relate to teaching. That is how Immigration sees it.
3. Extreme examples are not the best way to make your point. Everyone understands about "mitigating circumstances" Special cases aside, there are times when someone has to make a stand or get walked on. If it is just a one time thing, then I might do it, IF I had nothing else to do, but I would make clear that it is only this once. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| matthews_world wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| If you do it this one time, then you will be asked to all the time. Most bosses do this as a way of testing the waters and seeing what they can get away with. |
"Show some balls" maybe wasn't the phrase I was looking for, but before the OP is to complete the aformentioned task, they should be asking themselves "Will I be negatively affecting relations with my school, boss, and co-workers by not taking part?" |
I understand what you are saying, but using that logic could mean that you wind up staying after classes every day or so and scrubbing the school from top to bottom. I once worked at this school, where we were required to clean our classrooms at the end of each day. I had no problem with this as I like a clean classroom myself. It only took about 5-10 minutes to pick up paper and sweep the floor (even though it wasn't in the contract. However the boss (about three months in) decided that she wanted all the teachers to stay 2 hours after school each day and clean the classrooms, halls and washrooms and walls. I put my foot down and refused. At this point I was already working from 9 AM to 7 PM (split shifts) and there was no way I was staying at the school until 9PM. And no, we weren't being paid for this. This (or so they tried to claim) fell under the clause of "other duties".
"Relations" are important, but so is not being taken advantage of. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| matthews_world wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| If you do it this one time, then you will be asked to all the time. Most bosses do this as a way of testing the waters and seeing what they can get away with. |
"Show some balls" maybe wasn't the phrase I was looking for, but before the OP is to complete the aformentioned task, they should be asking themselves "Will I be negatively affecting relations with my school, boss, and co-workers by not taking part?" |
I understand what you are saying, but using that logic could mean that you wind up staying after classes every day or so and scrubbing the school from top to bottom. I once worked at this school, where we were required to clean our classrooms at the end of each day. I had no problem with this as I like a clean classroom myself. It only took about 5-10 minutes to pick up paper and sweep the floor (even though it wasn't in the contract. However the boss (about three months in) decided that she wanted all the teachers to stay 2 hours after school each day and clean the classrooms, halls and washrooms and walls. I put my foot down and refused. At this point I was already working from 9 AM to 7 PM (split shifts) and there was no way I was staying at the school until 9PM. And no, we weren't being paid for this. This (or so they tried to claim) fell under the clause of "other duties".
"Relations" are important, but so is not being taken advantage of. |
Give them an inch.... |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
2. Pardon me, I meant "violation of [your visa]"
Your contract is not the be-all and end-all when it comes to what work you can do. Your VISA takes precedence. To use an example if the boss wanted you to work in a nightclub and serve drinks that would be a violation of your work visa, despite the clause about "other duties". It is understood that those "other duties" are to relate to teaching. That is how Immigration sees it. |
As long as the cleaning was happening at the location the work visa was issued for, it would take an unrealistically narrow interpretation of the rules to conclude that cleaning of the location was a violation of one's visa (in much the same way that saying goodbye to students in Korean as they leave the building would be a violation of one's work visa).
So long as the cleaning was secondary and supportive of the primary reason behind the work visa, no violation of one's work visa could be claimed by Immigration. |
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cruisemonkey
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Location: Hopefully, the same place as my luggage.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| What about the Korean teachers? You didn't mention them. Regardless just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean you have to. But if you want to by all means go ahead. It does make one wonder why you posted on Dave's in the first place but ok. |
There are no Korean teachers... and I don't understand why you're wondering why I posted on 'Dave's'  - it's a work-related post about teaching in Korea. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
2. Pardon me, I meant "violation of [your visa]"
Your contract is not the be-all and end-all when it comes to what work you can do. Your VISA takes precedence. To use an example if the boss wanted you to work in a nightclub and serve drinks that would be a violation of your work visa, despite the clause about "other duties". It is understood that those "other duties" are to relate to teaching. That is how Immigration sees it. |
As long as the cleaning was happening at the location the work visa was issued for, it would take an unrealistically narrow interpretation of the rules to conclude that cleaning of the location was a violation of one's visa (in much the same way that saying goodbye to students in Korean as they leave the building would be a violation of one's work visa).
So long as the cleaning was secondary and supportive of the primary reason behind the work visa, no violation of one's work visa could be claimed by Immigration. |
How is the cleaning supportive of the primary reason behind the work visa? The primary reason that one was issued the work visa (E-2) is that one was a native speaker and came here to teach English. I fail to see how cleaning is supportive. Moreoever were this to happen on a regular basis and you were paid for it, would that not be considered a second job? It's not what the work visa was issued for certainly.
Also doesn't the E-2 visa limit the number of your work hours? I could be wrong on this but that was what a poster by the name of Mankind told me. In theory then could not cleaning (daily) exceed one's work hours? |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| How is the cleaning supportive of the primary reason behind the work visa? The primary reason that one was issued the work visa (E-2) is that one was a native speaker and came here to teach English. I fail to see how cleaning is supportive. Moreoever were this to happen on a regular basis and you were paid for it, would that not be considered a second job? It's not what the work visa was issued for certainly. |
As long as it's at the location listed on the visa and considered supportive of the goal of teaching (which cleaning would fall under as cleaning is simply something that has to be done, though generally it's limited to light classroom cleaning though it's not a legal requirement), then it's legit. Otherwise doing pre-work, talking to students, and whatever else on the company dime could be considered unlawful which would be exceptionally unlikely.
| Quote: |
| Also doesn't the E-2 visa limit the number of your work hours? I could be wrong on this but that was what a poster by the name of Mankind told me. In theory then could not cleaning (daily) exceed one's work hours? |
There is no restriction as to the number of hours worked in place due to a work visa. There are general labor requirements that limit time to 44 hours per week and 8 hours per day before overtime pay is to be required as well as employee agreement in general cases, as well as contractual obligations, but no visa restrictions.
Not that I'm advocating what people should do. I'm just focusing on what the law does or does not require. |
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