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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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 Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperHero wrote: |
| SuperHero wrote: |
play sports require more than one person
go sports can be done alone (though often aren't) |
I have yet to find an exception to these rules |
Have you ever gone bowling alone?
Koreans certainly don't. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:19 am Post subject: |
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play WITH
You can play WITH anything:
Don't play with your food, eat your food.
Don't play with your books, do your homework.
Don't play with your crayons, do your drawing.
Don't play with the puzzle, do the puzzle.
We DO things that require some skill or knowledge.
That is why we
do magic, do magic tricks, do a puzzle, and do a yo-yo and do yo-yo tricks.
Doing your yo-yo was a giant fad in the 1960s. Can you do yo-yo tricks? Can you do a yo-yo: sleeper, walk-the-dog, rock the cradle, around the world, etc.
Most people can't do a yo-yo. They can only play with it. If you practice you can learn to do a yo-yo. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:30 am Post subject: |
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I didn't read the whole thread, but my easiest explanation was...
GO ---- ing.
go skiing
go bowling
go shopping
Simple and seems to work, though exceptions may occur. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
play WITH
You can play WITH anything:
Don't play with your food, eat your food.
Don't play with your books, do your homework.
Don't play with your crayons, do your drawing.
Don't play with the puzzle, do the puzzle.
We DO things that require some skill or knowledge.
That is why we
do magic, do magic tricks, do a puzzle, and do a yo-yo and do yo-yo tricks.
Doing your yo-yo was a giant fad in the 1960s. Can you do yo-yo tricks? Can you do a yo-yo: sleeper, walk-the-dog, rock the cradle, around the world, etc.
Most people can't do a yo-yo. They can only play with it. If you practice you can learn to do a yo-yo. |
Where are you from? Do for tricks is fine, but do a yo-yo?? Makes no sense to me, and I've never heard it till this thread. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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I understand that the big yo-yo fad is long over. But, as I said, you can play with anything. The question is how do you describe doing an activity without the word "with". Expressions using with describe the thing we are using but not the activity we are doing.
We do tricks. When the yo-yo was created the big deal was to do tricks, hence "do yo-yo tricks", and "do a yo-yo". It's just like magic. Do magic tricks, do magic.
This was what everyone said in the US in the early 60s, from sea to shining sea. There were big events, contests, cash prizes. Gown men who could do hundreds of yo-yo tricks on TV and at expostions. Real exciting stuff.
These days I never see anyone doing yo-yo tricks, they can no longer do a yo-yo. They only play with it. It's a lost skill for the general public. |
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wanderer
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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..
Last edited by wanderer on Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| BigBuds wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I think it's very confusing too. Part of the rules seems to be that we 'play' if there is a ball or other similar equipment involved. |
What if I play with myself? Do you consider that "a ball or other similar equipment"?  |
Now that made me laugh out loud!! |
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jacl
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Don't play me like that.
Don't do me like that. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
I understand that the big yo-yo fad is long over. But, as I said, you can play with anything. The question is how do you describe doing an activity without the word "with". Expressions using with describe the thing we are using but not the activity we are doing.
We do tricks. When the yo-yo was created the big deal was to do tricks, hence "do yo-yo tricks", and "do a yo-yo". It's just like magic. Do magic tricks, do magic.
This was what everyone said in the US in the early 60s, from sea to shining sea. There were big events, contests, cash prizes. Gown men who could do hundreds of yo-yo tricks on TV and at expostions. Real exciting stuff.
These days I never see anyone doing yo-yo tricks, they can no longer do a yo-yo. They only play with it. It's a lost skill for the general public. |
I have never in my life heard someone say do a yo-yo. Very kinky, if you ask me.  I don't do a frisbee or a boomerang or even a hula-hoop. I play with them. I do tricks with them, though.
Language is... Well, let's just leave it at that. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Hello EFLtrainer,
Yes, you can play WITH a hoola hoop, boomerang or frisbee. But, we also:
throw a boomerang,
hoola or do a hoola hoop,
throw a frisbee, and
play frisbee (it's also like a game).
The verb "do" implies some skill or ability. When you play WITH something it implies no such skill or ability and usually means you're just fooling around.
"Wow! Can you really do that thing?"
"Yes, I can do ___________!"
And maybe it is a little kinky, first you play with it a while, then you do it. |
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ajuma
Joined: 18 Feb 2003
Location: Anywere but Seoul!!
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| jajdude wrote: |
I didn't read the whole thread, but my easiest explanation was...
GO ---- ing.
go skiing
go bowling
go shopping
Simple and seems to work, though exceptions may occur. |
This is the best way to teach it. Remember, we're usually teaching low to medium level students. It's best to give them a rule that will apply to most things. Playing "with" something is a whole different grammar structure! |
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dogshed
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: play |
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How about this rule. If you face your opponent and scoring is involved you are playing.
Play tennis.
Play softball.
Play darts but not play bowling???
So much for that rule. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| People are making too much of trying to find rules to explain all of this. It's just lexical collocation and students need to learn these as vocabulary items, through memory. You might start by getting students to classify these sports/games/whatever into groups: do v go v play v no verb. Once they've done this, they might be able to see some patterns within each group, as people do here, but in each case there will be exceptions. And that is because the creation of these collocations is a lexical process, and thus, not strictly rule governed. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| wanderer wrote: |
Break activities down into two catagories: -ing/ not -ing
-ing activities use 'go'
not -ing activities are broken down into games/ non games(originally)
games are played
non games are done/practiced (this includes fighting games as they were not originally games) |
Play
1. We use 'play' with sports that involve a ball and 2 sides. Except why not 'play' bowling? The 2 sides are not facing each other. I think that's a hard rule now:
(a) It's a sport.
(b) There's a ball (or similar thing such as a shuttlecock or quoit).
(c) There are 2 sides (either teams or individuals).
(d) The 2 sides are facing each other.
Also (e) the sport is played on a court or field or other rectangular area.
2. We also use 'play' with games. So darts is not an exception because it counts as a game.
3. We never use play with gerunds.
4. With toys or other small articles, it's 'play with a <toy>'.
5. With rides or machines or other equipment, it's 'play on the <equipment>'. This is where you drill 'play on the computer' ten thousand times until it sinks in or someone dies whichever comes first.
Note for #5 you can also use 'go' (e.g. 'go on the swings'), but they're not completely interchangeable. I think if your kid wanted to 'play on the rollercoaster' you might be alarmed. 'play on X' suggests doing whatever you want, but 'go on X' suggests following a procedure? Except 'play on the swings' pretty much means swinging on them, not climbing up and down on them.
Anyway you could easily take up 3 or 4 lessons covering these points, not including reviews.
Go
As said above, we use 'go' with -ing activities (gerunds) but that's not a hard rule. We can use 'go' with outdoor activities like canoeing or hiking and we can use it with indoor ones like bowling or dancing. But we don't use 'go' with fighting sports like wrestling, boxing, or fencing. We say 'go drinking' but not 'go smoking' or 'go watching a movie' because, I think, the latter are not 'pursuits' that take place over a period of time. And you're not actively involved in something like watching a movie or show.
This is quite a hard concept to get across especially to Koreans, who don't seem to make much of a distinction between leisure and work activities. What's the hard rule here? Can anyone help? |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
| People are making too much of trying to find rules to explain all of this. It's just lexical collocation and students need to learn these as vocabulary items, through memory. You might start by getting students to classify these sports/games/whatever into groups: do v go v play v no verb. Once they've done this, they might be able to see some patterns within each group, as people do here, but in each case there will be exceptions. And that is because the creation of these collocations is a lexical process, and thus, not strictly rule governed. |
Yes, but saying 'it's a lexical process so it's not strictly rule governed' just feels too much like a cop-out to me. I believe we can find hard rules if we think hard enough; and it's more efficient to learn rules than memorize reams of vocabulary. I like your idea of getting students to look for patterns themselves, but how can I give them feedback on what they find if I don't have any definitive answers? |
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