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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
I did not know that "holacaust denial" was - broadly -a view he held until 1991 when he researched Eichmann's papers. This changed his view. 15 years ago.
| Quote: |
During his one-day trial in Vienna, the 67-year-old historian admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews.
He said this is what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust.
"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court.
"The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4734648.stm |
Heard the same thing on CNN. They said he questions whether 6 million were killed. Either way, none would have been killed if the Germans and Austrians weren't Nazis. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Wangja wrote: |
I did not know that "holacaust denial" was - broadly -a view he held until 1991 when he researched Eichmann's papers. This changed his view. 15 years ago.
| Quote: |
During his one-day trial in Vienna, the 67-year-old historian admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews.
He said this is what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust.
"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court.
"The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4734648.stm |
Heard the same thing on CNN. They said he questions whether 6 million were killed. Either way, none would have been killed if the Germans and Austrians weren't Nazis. |
You'd be surprised how much historiographical debate there has been about this. Just go to a uni library and look for articles about Daniel Goldhagen. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| dulouz wrote: |
| yet it is refered to "THE" holocaust, like it was the only one that ever happened or it is the most important. Irving needs to shut up. |
Well, no. I've heard the term used for other genocides. When Jews are speaking of a holocaust relevant to them, they use the definite article. To wit, saying you're going to the office doesn't imply there is only one office in the world. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Wangja wrote: |
I did not know that "holacaust denial" was - broadly -a view he held until 1991 when he researched Eichmann's papers. This changed his view. 15 years ago.
| Quote: |
During his one-day trial in Vienna, the 67-year-old historian admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews.
He said this is what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust.
"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court.
"The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."
|
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4734648.stm |
Heard the same thing on CNN. They said he questions whether 6 million were killed. Either way, none would have been killed if the Germans and Austrians weren't Nazis. |
You'd be surprised how much historiographical debate there has been about this. Just go to a uni library and look for articles about Daniel Goldhagen. |
Why bother? It's a fact that the Nazis put the Jews in the camps and that they also started WW2. No Nazis, no Holocaust or WW2. It's an open and shut case. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
dulouz wrote:
yet it is refered to "THE" holocaust, like it was the only one that ever happened or it is the most important. Irving needs to shut up.
Well, no. I've heard the term used for other genocides. When Jews are speaking of a holocaust relevant to them, they use the definite article. To wit, saying you're going to the office doesn't imply there is only one office in the world.
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All of humanity now uses "The Holocaust" when refering to the Jewish Holocaust of WWII. Refer here...
http://www.blackholocaustmuseum.org/ Hollywood movies uses this terminology as well. There were many holocausts but this one is special some how.
Holocaust denial is the game of the day in Europe. British communists downplay both of The Holocausts all of the time, every day because it makes Muslims and Communists look bad.
You know how Jews hate Nazis because of the Jewish Holocaust of WW II? I'm half Slav so I hate Communists the same way. I'm also Christian so I'm entitled to hate Turks and Muslims the same way. Thats fair. The EU politicians worked very hard at Holocaust denial during Turkey's entry discussions. Again, Holocaust denial is the game of the day in Europe. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Wangja wrote: |
I did not know that "holacaust denial" was - broadly -a view he held until 1991 when he researched Eichmann's papers. This changed his view. 15 years ago.
| Quote: |
During his one-day trial in Vienna, the 67-year-old historian admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews.
He said this is what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust.
"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court.
"The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."
|
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4734648.stm |
Heard the same thing on CNN. They said he questions whether 6 million were killed. Either way, none would have been killed if the Germans and Austrians weren't Nazis. |
You'd be surprised how much historiographical debate there has been about this. Just go to a uni library and look for articles about Daniel Goldhagen. |
Why bother? It's a fact that the Nazis put the Jews in the camps and that they also started WW2. No Nazis, no Holocaust or WW2. It's an open and shut case. |
I wonder why anyone bothers, either. It's a largely esoteric debate between Zionist and non-Zionist historians and Holocaust studies academics. Some of the Zionists would like to argue that a mass slaughter of Jews would have happened regardless of whether Hitler had existed or not, Europe was so violently anti-Semetic. This, in turn, helps to justify early Zionism and the creation of the state of Israel in their minds. Holocaust historians not buying such logic (Lucy Davidovitz comes to mind) argue that this is counter-factual reasoning and merely hijacking history to propagandise.
Oh the joys of all those grad-school historiography seminars. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
I wonder why anyone bothers, either. It's a largely esoteric debate between Zionist and non-Zionist historians and Holocaust studies academics.
Some of the Zionists would like to argue that a mass slaughter of Jews would have happened regardless of whether Hitler had existed or not, Europe was so violently anti-Semetic.
This, in turn, helps to justify early Zionism and the creation of the state of Israel in their minds. Holocaust historians not buying such logic (Lucy Davidovitz comes to mind) argue that this is counter-factual reasoning and merely hijacking history to propagandise.
Oh the joys of all those grad-school historiography seminars. |
A must read ( for all history buffs especially ) : 
Lenni Brenner
Zionism in the Age of the Dictators
A Reappraisal
(1983)
In lieu of a new introduction
Edward Mortimer: Contradiction, collusion and controversy
(A review from the London Times)
Preface
1. Zionism and Anti-Semitism Prior to the Holocaust
2. Blut und Boden (Blood and Soil): The Roots of Racist Zionism
3. German Zionism and the Collapse of the Weimar Republic
4. Zionism and Italian Fascism, 1922-1933
5. German Zionism Offers to Collaborate with Nazism
6. The Jewish Anti-Nazi Boycott and the Zionist-Nazi Trade Agreement
7. Hitler Looks at Zionism
8. Palestine – The Arabs, Zionists, British and Nazis
9. The World Jewish Congress
10. Zionist-Revisionism and Italian Fascism
11. Revisionism and Nazism
12. Georg Kareski, Hitler's Zionist Quisling Before Quisling
13. Choosing the Chosen People – The Doctrine of ��Zionist Cruelty��
14. The World Zionist Organisation and Italian Fascism, 1933-1937
15. Austria and the ��Gentile Friends of Zionism��
16. The Jewish Parties of Eastern Europe
17. Spain – The Nazis Fight, the Zionists Do Not
18. Zionism's Failure to Fight Nazism in the Liberal Democracies
19. Zionism and the Japanese East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere
20. Poland, 1918-1939
21. Zionism in Holocaust Poland
22. Zionist Collusion with the Polish Government-in-Exile
23. Illegal Immigration
24. The Wartime Failure to Rescue
25. Hungary, the Crime Within a Crime
26. The Stern Gang
Appendix
Stern Gang: Proposal of Irgun Zvai Leumi Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question
and Participation in the War on the Side of Germany (1941)
(The German original)
Glossary of Jewish and Zionist Organisations
Abbreviations
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Wangja wrote: |
I did not know that "holacaust denial" was - broadly -a view he held until 1991 when he researched Eichmann's papers. This changed his view. 15 years ago.
| Quote: |
During his one-day trial in Vienna, the 67-year-old historian admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews.
He said this is what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust.
"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court.
"The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."
|
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4734648.stm |
Heard the same thing on CNN. They said he questions whether 6 million were killed. Either way, none would have been killed if the Germans and Austrians weren't Nazis. |
You'd be surprised how much historiographical debate there has been about this. Just go to a uni library and look for articles about Daniel Goldhagen. |
Why bother? It's a fact that the Nazis put the Jews in the camps and that they also started WW2. No Nazis, no Holocaust or WW2. It's an open and shut case. |
I wonder why anyone bothers, either. It's a largely esoteric debate between Zionist and non-Zionist historians and Holocaust studies academics. Some of the Zionists would like to argue that a mass slaughter of Jews would have happened regardless of whether Hitler had existed or not, Europe was so violently anti-Semetic. This, in turn, helps to justify early Zionism and the creation of the state of Israel in their minds. Holocaust historians not buying such logic (Lucy Davidovitz comes to mind) argue that this is counter-factual reasoning and merely hijacking history to propagandise.
Oh the joys of all those grad-school historiography seminars. |
Lucky you. I had the pleasure of studying linguistics in grad school. It was a rather tedious endeavor. No two researchers seemed to agree with one the other. Nevertheless, they could all argue their theories quite eloquently. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:03 am Post subject: |
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WALL STREET & THE RISE OF HITLER
By Antony C. Sutton
http://images.google.com/images?q=Antony+C.+Sutton&hl=en
Finally, a distinguished scholar has penetrated the cloak of falsehood, deception, and duplicity that for more than thirty years has protected one of the most incredible secrets of World War II: the support from key Wall Street financiers and other international bankers in subsidizing Hitler's rise to power.
Professor Antony C. Sutton proves that World War II was not only well planned, it was also extremely profitable—
for a select group of financial insiders.
Carefully tracing this closely guarded secret through original documents and eyewitness accounts, Sutton documents the roles played by J.P. Morgan, T. W. Lamont, the Rockefeller interests, General Electric Company, Standard Oil, National City Bank, Chase and Manhattan banks, Kuhn, Loeb and Company, and scores of other business elitists.
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/index.html
VIDEO INTERVIEW:
http://www.1984videos.com/police_state/Wallstreet_financing_Hitler_and_Lenin__Stan_Monteith_interviews_Anthony%20Sutton.wmv
Another historian they likely should have tried to have silenced.
Warts and all (not just the sanitized version) the "TRUTH" is indeed often far more stranger than fiction. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| dulouz wrote: |
| Quote: |
dulouz wrote:
yet it is refered to "THE" holocaust, like it was the only one that ever happened or it is the most important. Irving needs to shut up.
Well, no. I've heard the term used for other genocides. When Jews are speaking of a holocaust relevant to them, they use the definite article. To wit, saying you're going to the office doesn't imply there is only one office in the world.
|
All of humanity now uses "The Holocaust" when refering to the Jewish Holocaust of WWII. Refer here...
http://www.blackholocaustmuseum.org/ Hollywood movies uses this terminology as well. There were many holocausts but this one is special some how.
Holocaust denial is the game of the day in Europe. British communists downplay both of The Holocausts all of the time, every day because it makes Muslims and Communists look bad.
You know how Jews hate Nazis because of the Jewish Holocaust of WW II? I'm half Slav so I hate Communists the same way. I'm also Christian so I'm entitled to hate Turks and Muslims the same way. Thats fair. The EU politicians worked very hard at Holocaust denial during Turkey's entry discussions. Again, Holocaust denial is the game of the day in Europe. |
saying which genocide is worse than another is a usless topic however:
here are some facts about the holocaust
1) Hitler wanted Jews who ran away to other nations - even Asia returned.
2) Another thing I do believe that is the Turkish genocide of Armenians. Armenians who changed their religion were spared.
3) Also to be a Jew all one needed was one or two Jewish grandparents.
4) Even having one Jewish great grand parent meant sterilization.
5) Jews were killed before others in concentration camps, for instance 50% of Homosexuals in concentration camps survived but the survival rate for Jews was far lower.
6) Germany also diverted resources from the war effort to make sure the concentration camps were able to finish the job.
7) According to German records plans were made to extend the holocaust to other nations - such as the US. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
here are some facts about the holocaust
1) Hitler wanted Jews who ran away to other nations - even Asia returned. |
EVEN PALESTINE ??? Somehow i doubt it.
Another "fact" is that, without the Holocaust, ISRAEL likely would never even have come into existence.
Just a happy "HEGELIAN" coincidence for the Zionists who'd been pushing hard for a separate special "homeland".
Too bad for ALL the assimilationists 
Oh yes, while we're on the topic of FACTS, remember that prior to 1948
MOST of Palestine's Jews were content to live under Jordanian rule as an ethnic & religious minority.
Hmmmmmmmm ...  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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You never heard about the Mufiti & Hitler?
Yes the region of Palestine was certainly on Hitlers list.
| Quote: |
Oh yes, while we're on the topic of FACTS, remember that prior to 1948
MOST of Palestine's Jews were content to live under Jordanian rule as an ethnic & religious minority.
Hmmmmmmmm ... |
[/quote]
Jordanian rule? You mean Transjordan - whose borders were made by the British. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
You never heard about the Mufiti & Hitler?
Yes the region of Palestine was certainly on Hitlers list. |
Sure, most likely a list of his potential vacation or retirement spots.
Hmmmmm ...
Adolf Hitler's "Fake" Passport
This fake passport for Adolf Hitler was made by the Special Operations Executive (SOE). The work of this group was to organise resistance in countries taken over by the Germans during the Second World War. After the war, examples of the documents they made were preserved to illustrate their work.
SOE relied on the use of undercover agents or spies. They sent nearly 500 agents into France alone. To assist these agents, SOE ran a forgery section that made fake documents ranging from passports to firearms licences, travel permits and work passes. They often made use of the skills of counterfeiters and forgers recently released from prison.
This passport shows what the forgers were capable of producing. It also hints at their sense of humour and their opinion of Hitler and his beliefs. They've given Hitler's passport a red 'J' (which stood for 'Jew' on a German passport).
He has a visa allowing his entry into Palestine, which was under British control at that time. The passport also describes Hitler's occupation as a 'painter'. Under distinguishing features, they list his 'little moustache'.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/museum/item.asp?item_id=46 |
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