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JeJuJitsu
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Location: McDonald's
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 Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| chronicpride wrote: |
| Big Mac wrote: |
| Flit, I disagree with you. A university degree is a very good measuring stick for determining the kind of teacher you're going to get. |
I disagree. If there's one thing that teachers in the global ESL community have been able to prove, is that ESL certification and related experience trumps non-ESL education and zero experience. Take Spain and the rest of the ESL hotbeds in Europe, plus Vietnam, Thailand, etc...where they are less stringent on degrees and place more value on TESOL, TEFL, or CELTA certification and your related experience. It's really only in Japan, Taiwan, and Korea, where the degree/transcript is so fixated on. The need to prove a BA is needed for immigrant control, NOT something that schools care too much about factoring into their hiring decisions. This is Korea, where your picture gets a longer look than your resume, and the cover letter is so redundant to them, that they likely use them as lunch placemats to absorb the splatter from the tangsuyuk.
I mean, seriously. If you look at it strictly from an educational perspective for finding targeted teaching candidates, a guy with 5 years of ESL experience and ESL certification from a credible and solid institute, should offer less employment liability than somebody who just finished university with a BA, has zero experience in teaching in english, zero or limited job experience, particularly in a foreign country with a foreign employer, and outside of possibly living in a frat, has no significant experience of living away from home for an extensive period of time, much less on the other side of the world. And I'm a little confused as to why teachers here seem to go along and agree with the obtuse line of thinking that having a random BA and no experience guarantees educational value to students, versus someone who doesn't have a BA, but is TESOL certified and has related ESL experience. I don't get that logic, at all. That's not ESL education-centric thinking. That's just preserving the ESL business and its lousy loopholes, style thinking.
If I owned a school here, I'd be 100 times more inclined to hire a guy with verifiable references for this 5 yrs ESL experience and related certification, over a guy who has nothing to offer except a BA for meeting basic immigration requirements. But unfortunately, immigration has set this standard and they have no one to blame but themselves for doing so. |
I simply don't understand how a person without a degree would even contemplate teaching...at some point, maybe not in this or that country, but at some point, people will probably want to know that "the" teacher is educated.
I mean, why be like the 5'4" slow white guy that insits he is an NBA prospect? Or the blind man that wants to be a fighter pilot? What is it with some of you folks? Why do you gravitate towards a field in education...when you do not have an education?
Yeah, we know, in Thailand and China, some places do not require a degree. So you sit around, research the jobs, discover that they pay 1/10th of what a job does in a country that requires degrees. Your little, uneducated, stunted brain then compels you to ask on the Korean teacher board, "How, oh how can I make the kind of money you guys get by having a degree? Oh how oh, how?!"
Again, what compels your ilk to pursue a career in a field in which you are the absolutely LEAST qualified to work in? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| dulouz wrote: |
To answer your question - you need a 4 year degree to work here. |
No. You need a BA. Some nations like Canada and the UK have 3 year BA programs. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| I disagree - virtually all of the government instructions I have read said 4 year degree. Some people are smart and can finish in 3 or even 2 years but the paperwork says 4 years. It means Bachelor. Some programs complete the work in 3 years rather than the traditional 4 and those programs in that way are exceptions. You also don't need a BA. Bachelor of Science or "BS" degrees are accepted as well. |
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denverdeath
Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| I've worked with people who had degrees other than a BA here as well. One fella had an MBA (his bachelor's was in business), two had an engineering degree (I think one was BEng and the other was BSc in Engineering), one had a computer designation (maybe BSc), and another had a regular BSc. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| JeJuJitsu wrote: |
| chronicpride wrote: |
| Big Mac wrote: |
| Flit, I disagree with you. A university degree is a very good measuring stick for determining the kind of teacher you're going to get. |
I disagree. If there's one thing that teachers in the global ESL community have been able to prove, is that ESL certification and related experience trumps non-ESL education and zero experience. Take Spain and the rest of the ESL hotbeds in Europe, plus Vietnam, Thailand, etc...where they are less stringent on degrees and place more value on TESOL, TEFL, or CELTA certification and your related experience. It's really only in Japan, Taiwan, and Korea, where the degree/transcript is so fixated on. The need to prove a BA is needed for immigrant control, NOT something that schools care too much about factoring into their hiring decisions. This is Korea, where your picture gets a longer look than your resume, and the cover letter is so redundant to them, that they likely use them as lunch placemats to absorb the splatter from the tangsuyuk.
I mean, seriously. If you look at it strictly from an educational perspective for finding targeted teaching candidates, a guy with 5 years of ESL experience and ESL certification from a credible and solid institute, should offer less employment liability than somebody who just finished university with a BA, has zero experience in teaching in english, zero or limited job experience, particularly in a foreign country with a foreign employer, and outside of possibly living in a frat, has no significant experience of living away from home for an extensive period of time, much less on the other side of the world. And I'm a little confused as to why teachers here seem to go along and agree with the obtuse line of thinking that having a random BA and no experience guarantees educational value to students, versus someone who doesn't have a BA, but is TESOL certified and has related ESL experience. I don't get that logic, at all. That's not ESL education-centric thinking. That's just preserving the ESL business and its lousy loopholes, style thinking.
If I owned a school here, I'd be 100 times more inclined to hire a guy with verifiable references for this 5 yrs ESL experience and related certification, over a guy who has nothing to offer except a BA for meeting basic immigration requirements. But unfortunately, immigration has set this standard and they have no one to blame but themselves for doing so. |
I simply don't understand how a person without a degree would even contemplate teaching...at some point, maybe not in this or that country, but at some point, people will probably want to know that "the" teacher is educated.
I mean, why be like the 5'4" slow white guy that insits he is an NBA prospect? Or the blind man that wants to be a fighter pilot? What is it with some of you folks? Why do you gravitate towards a field in education...when you do not have an education?
Yeah, we know, in Thailand and China, some places do not require a degree. So you sit around, research the jobs, discover that they pay 1/10th of what a job does in a country that requires degrees. Your little, uneducated, stunted brain then compels you to ask on the Korean teacher board, "How, oh how can I make the kind of money you guys get by having a degree? Oh how oh, how?!"
Again, what compels your ilk to pursue a career in a field in which you are the absolutely LEAST qualified to work in? |
I was wondering how long it would take for a knuckle-dragger to come out of the caves and insuate that if I'm defending the teaching ability of degree-less, yet ESL certified teachers, then I must also be degree-less, yet ESL certified. Dumb assumptions like that further highlight my frustrations of the quality of individuals coming into this country and adds another log to fire of debate that just having a degree obviously isn't cutting it. Getting back to my original point, before the half-assed distortion job, a 22 year frat boy with a BA in History, opposed to a guy who has ESL certification and years of practical ESL teaching experience, is not going to have a better chance of being able to pull off being a 'real teacher', just because he has incurred 4 years of student loans and attended enough classes to pass. That's just completely boneheaded logic.
And to offer up another example, there are loads of people who have gone to 2 year technical colleges, but guess what? According to this dumbass logic we're talking about now, they apparently don't have the skillsets to be able to teach ESL, even if they went out and got a CELTA and accrued xyz years of hands-on teaching experience. Why? Because those extra 2 years of formal education that their college diploma program didn't have, is like magical fairy dust. Without those extra two years to change that diploma into a degree, is absolutely critical in the potential ESL development of someone who has a BA in 'subject that is completely unrelated to teaching english.'  |
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Homer
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| But I consider the requirement over the top and contradictory. What good can this law do for the quality of EFL teaching in Korea? I mean come on, who would you have teach you English? ...the 21 yo Sports Science grad ...or the seasoned EFL teacher? Why does the TEFL cert bear no importance? Surely it should be a degree OR a TEFL cert (and what about my diploma... nothing!) At least... why not a degree AND a TEFL qualification? Just a degree accounts for absolutely diddly squat in my books when language teaching is concerned. They don't even care what subject it is . Crazy. I could prove my worth with references... a test... solid experience. Looking good on paper is NOT good enough. |
I have to disgree with you there Flit.
This law means that the people hired all have (in theory anyway) a minimum standard of qualification. Whats the other option?
Most jobs have such requirements (relevant diploma). If you want to teach back home, you often need a B.a. + a teaching permit.
Korea requires a B.A. and I feel this is a minimum level that is more than warranted.
I mean come on, who would you have teach you English? ...the 21 yo Sports Science grad ...or the seasoned EFL teacher?
I think they would rather have the experienced teacher with academic credentials but, pushed in a corner would prefer the teacher with a university diploma over the teacher with no diploma and some experience.
They hire most of their teachers from overseas, they need somesort of common measuring stick and that is the B.A. from a rec ognized university. A Degree is not a garantee of a better teacher but it is a key that opens doors.
why not a degree AND a TEFL qualification?
That is the preferred choice of employers....
I understand your frustration but Degree requirements are only going to get more common. If you wish to have a career as an ESL teacher it would make perfect sense for you to bite the bullet at do a B.A. Ed. Even if you do not agree about the overal validity of such a degree. It will open doors for you and only enhance your experience. |
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Flit
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: |
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Ok, I understand that one needs a degree to teach in South Korea. I accept it, that's the way it is and there's not much I can do about it.
I completely understand that there needs to be some kind of 'filtering' process for who gets accepted and who doesn't. I also realise the cultural factor Sth Korea has in upholding further education as a necessity. Looking at educational background makes sense. There is an accomplishment to show in having a degree - of course there is. And, a graduate may very well make a good teacher.
However, some seem to actually believe that a university graduate automatically makes a better teacher than a non-graduate. And that without a degree a person is not of equal capability. I believe this to be absolute rot.
Denverdeath: Your points are sound and sensible. Though you say you learned things by common sense, and then you did your TEFL, realising then (without having been taught) that what you were doing was indeed correct. Have you considered that it may work the other way for non-graduates? Maybe, just maybe an individual can pick up the skills one gains at uni of their own accord. Ok, so the govt can guarantee those skills by requiring a degree. The govt can also rest assured those skills are inherent by considering past years teaching experience and the TEFL qual. If they insist upon high standards then they should insist on experience and a teaching qual - not a just a degree. Also, they will NEVER require an MA in TESOL/WHATEVER. If they did, there'd be 40 - 50 qualified native teachers available annually in Korea. Just out of interest... what do people here guess is the percentage of TEFL/TESOL qualified teachers in Korea? How many of the graduates teaching out there have had any formal teaching tuition?
As for this... person:
| JeJuJitsu wrote: |
| I simply don't understand how a person without a degree would even contemplate teaching...at some point, maybe not in this or that country, but at some point, people will probably want to know that "the" teacher is educated. |
Because that person knows/believes he/she is capable. That person then goes out and does it. They then find they are good at it and they succeed. The hoighty toighty who questions my present ability based on my whereabouts as a teenager can go suck a lemon.
| JeJuJitsu wrote: |
I mean, why be like the 5'4" slow white guy that insits he is an NBA prospect? Or the blind man that wants to be a fighter pilot? What is it with some of you folks? Why do you gravitate towards a field in education...when you do not have an education?
Yeah, we know, in Thailand and China, some places do not require a degree. So you sit around, research the jobs, discover that they pay 1/10th of what a job does in a country that requires degrees. Your little, uneducated, stunted brain then compels you to ask on the Korean teacher board, "How, oh how can I make the kind of money you guys get by having a degree? Oh how oh, how?!" |
Well, you certainly didn't learn any manners in your education, did you? How insulting! How narrow-minded! Did you spend your time walking around campus with your football mates beating people up smaller than yourself? I bet you did. Or at least you imagined doing it. Your total ignorance makes my blood boil.
| JeJuJitsu wrote: |
| Again, what compels your ilk to pursue a career in a field in which you are the absolutely LEAST qualified to work in? |
Have you actually read and understood anything in this thread? My whole point is that a degree grad is less qualified than an experienced TEFL cert holder! Sure, it's easier for the govt to vet all entries but at the end of the day they've got it wrong. If I study biology, I can't very well go out and get a job as a qualified civil engineer. Why is it like this here?
Look people, I don't expect you to all agree with me. I don't expect those who do to march up Main St Seoul protesting the error either. I am merely expressing my disgust at a 'clause' that in my opinion is not in any way helping EFL teaching standards in Korea.
I'm a very good teacher (forgive me for saying), and I have never been to university. If you think that uni would have helped me succeed as a teacher - you're wrong. I did it myself. A degree may assist me in getting to Korea - but that's the extent of it. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| A degree may assist me in getting to Korea - but that's the extent of it. |
No, a B-Ed for example would formalize teaching as being your chosen profession in life (or one of them) and allow you to continue building a solid professional career with better opportunities (not just in Korea), pay, benefits, and credibility. It's all good!!
You seem like an intelligent, well-spoken person and I think you'd be doing yourself a great disservice if you didn't give yourself the opportunities in life that a university education would bring. It can be a pain in the butt to reorganize your life to get it done, especially if you're already used to working, but it's totally worth it in the end. Gotta think longterm for yourself. |
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Flit
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A degree may assist me in getting to Korea - but that's the extent of it. |
No, a B-Ed for example would formalize teaching as being your chosen profession in life (or one of them) and allow you to continue building a solid professional career with better opportunities (not just in Korea), pay, benefits, and credibility.
It's all good! |
Yet South Korea is full of teachers who have made no effort to formalise their present job as a teacher. And these are accepted with wide eyes and open arms whilst disregarding those who might have spent most of their working life actually doing the job and being qualified (enough) to do so.
But ok Canuckistan... maybe I should consider doing a B-ed. Thanks for the sound advice. |
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OCOKA Dude
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| keithinkorea wrote: |
Get a degree.
Some idiot gyopo has been sending me personal messages asking for advice about how to work as a teacher in Korea without a degree! It is annoying but funny how he-she-it boasts about making so much money in the US but wanting to come to Korea to 'experience the culture'!
I think SBS should do a documentary about gyopo types without degrees expoiting their f series visas to deprive better educated Koreans of work and also shirk their military duty!
Doing a degree in any discipline involves a variety of skills needed by a teacher. Essay writing, critical analysis, hardwork, patience, self discipline and of course the desire to learn, all very valuable qualitites of a teacher.
Get a degree all you gyopo losers! |
The degree requirement only applies to E2 and E1 visas. So for an F visa th kyopo isnt breaking any rules. F visa holders are allowed to teach without a degree. |
The aforementioned statements are false. (And by the way, F-4 is not a visa status -- F-4s are Permanent Residents.)
The ESL industry is regulated by the Ministry of Education. It is the Ministry of Education, not Immigration, that requires ALL English conversation teachers working in the ROK to be Native English speakers and hold a minimum of a Bachelor's from a recognized Four-year uni in an English-speaking country.
E-2 visa applicants, therefore, need a Bachelor's degree because the assumption is that E-2 visa holders will be teaching a foreign language, which falls under MoE regulations.
F-4 Permanent Residents, on the other hand, like Korean citizens, are not restricted in employment, therefore, are not required to possess degrees of any kind -- they must meet Permanent Residency requirements such as producing a Hojujok. However, if F-4 residents wish to teach English or any other foreign language in Korea, they must meet MoE requirements, i.e., having a Uni degree.
So, in summary:
F-4 = Permanent Resident status (no educational requirements because it is not a visa)
E-2 = work visa/Foreign language expert (Educational requirement under Immigration and MoE rules.)
F-4s who want to teach must have degrees under MoE rules, not Immigration's.
| keithinkorea wrote: |
I think SBS should do a documentary about gyopo types without degrees expoiting their f series visas to deprive better educated Koreans of work and also shirk their military duty!
Doing a degree in any discipline involves a variety of skills needed by a teacher. Essay writing, critical analysis, hardwork, patience, self discipline and of course the desire to learn, all very valuable qualitites of a teacher.
Get a degree all you gyopo losers! |
OK "Keith in Korea," on one hand you talk about the importance of teachers having skills like, "...critical analysis, hardwork, patience, self discipline and of course the desire to learn...", but in the same breath, you're able to make a highly illogical, discriminatory and racist remark that all gyopos are "losers"?
Also, when individuals make statements as hatefilled as you have against persons of a certain nationality, like Gyopos, it makes you sound like a bigotted idiot yourself. What is your problem with Gyopos and why all the jealousy and rage? Do you have an axe to grind against some Gyopo who did something to you in the past? Come clean dude -- your racist hatred is totally toxic and will be ultimately poisonous to your health.
Obviously, you need to follow your own advice and get a uni degree yourself. I find it hard to believe that you are a college graduate. Admit it -- you are a poseur with fake diploma you picked up on your last jaunt to Bangkok currently bamboozling some hagwon in order to support your loser lifestyle cos you have no options back home.
My suggestion: Stop taking out all your frustrations, jealousy and rage on Gyopos -- or the Boogie man for that matter -- and face up to your own failures and inadequacies by admitting that you are a loser. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| OCOKA Dude wrote: |
The aforementioned statements are false. (And by the way, F-4 is not a visa status -- F-4s are Permanent Residents.)
The ESL industry is regulated by the Ministry of Education. It is the Ministry of Education, not Immigration, that requires ALL English conversation teachers working in the ROK to be Native English speakers and hold a minimum of a Bachelor's from a recognized Four-year uni in an English-speaking country.
E-2 visa applicants, therefore, need a Bachelor's degree because the assumption is that E-2 visa holders will be teaching a foreign language, which falls under MoE regulations.
F-4 Permanent Residents, on the other hand, like Korean citizens, are not restricted in employment, therefore, are not required to possess degrees of any kind -- they must meet Permanent Residency requirements such as producing a Hojujok. However, if F-4 residents wish to teach English or any other foreign language in Korea, they must meet MoE requirements, i.e., having a Uni degree.
So, in summary:
F-4 = Permanent Resident status (no educational requirements because it is not a visa)
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F-4 is not permannet residency. F5 is. You need to keep extending your F-4 and it has an expiration date. OTOH my F5 never has to be extended, I have nothing on the back of my ARC that states when my period of sojourn ends. Why? Because its PERMANENT. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| dulouz wrote: |
| I disagree - virtually all of the government instructions I have read said 4 year degree. Some people are smart and can finish in 3 or even 2 years but the paperwork says 4 years. It means Bachelor. Some programs complete the work in 3 years rather than the traditional 4 and those programs in that way are exceptions. You also don't need a BA. Bachelor of Science or "BS" degrees are accepted as well. |
No. Loads of Canadians are working quite legally in Korea with 3 year BAs.
A BA is the legal minimum. Whether your country's university grants it in 3 years or 4 years is immaterial as regards E2 visa qualifications.
Regarding the value of a BA. Sure, if you want to stay all your life in your home nation and buck the system and make something out of yourself, that's just super. However, when you want to cross borders, be it for an H1B in the USA or an E2 in Korea or wherever, almost all governments in developed countries place an emphasis on holding a university degree for visa purposes.
Sorry, but there are thousands of people applying for E2 visas every year. Those numbers would only increase if you eliminated the degree restriction. If you opened up E2 visas to non-degree holders, how many people with high school diplomas wouldn't jump at a chance to earn what amounts to a 45K a year part time job? The sick reality is the hagwon system is, at times, the least qualified to determine who would make a good teacher. They are a business, after all, and would hire a high school grad happy as a pig in puke to work for 1.5 million won. A free apartment and 1.5 mil can buy a lot of beer and cigarettes.
So, governments like to impose minimum standards. Yeah yeah, I know it screws the "but I've got loads of experience" self starters. Well, try to apply for any white collar work visa in any nation without a legit degree and see how far you get in the process. You made your choice in life and that choice I guess works for you in your home nation. However, that was a poor and highly ill informed choice if you believed your future involved working in another developed nation and applying for a white collar job.
It's that simple. A BA is the most cost effective filter. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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AMEN mindmetoo,
you summed it up perfectly. Basically, its tough cookies for non-BA/B.Sc. holders. yes, we know you are a better teacher than 99.9% of University grads in Korea but you simply don't meet the bare minimum and as such can't work in Korea. China, Vietnam, Laos, Thailand are still open to you and you can go there. OR you can actually o and get a BA or BSc or B.Ed. and then come back to Korea when you have the credentials. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Flit wrote: |
Have you actually read and understood anything in this thread? My whole point is that a degree grad is less qualified than an experienced TEFL cert holder! Sure, it's easier for the govt to vet all entries but at the end of the day they've got it wrong. If I study biology, I can't very well go out and get a job as a qualified civil engineer. Why is it like this here? |
Most hagwon owners would rather crap down your mouth than give a care you have a TEFL certificate. They care 1) do you meet the legal minimum set by the government? 2) are you white? 3) do you sound like actors in American movies? 4) will you work for the pay offered?
That's the whole of it.
And let's face it, we're teaching kids whose parents want them to be successful, English literate UNIVERSITY grads. What message would we be sending the paying customers if we're letting their kids be taught by people with high school diplomas and some 1 year certificate program under their belt? In other words, parents want the teacher to be an EXAMPLE of the rule, not the exception. The rule is you study like all get out, you get into a top university, and you get a good job because you went to a good university. Doesn't matter if you got a C+ at SNU. After university, your advancement in society and your company is governed by how well you play by those rules.
And you get pissy because a whole nation doesn't want to reward foreign non-degree holders? Really, assuming the system should embrace your individualism and reward you for it shows a remarkable ignorance of Asian culture and proof you have zero place in Asia.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:35 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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denverdeath
Joined: 21 May 2005
Location: Boo-sahn
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| OCOKA Dude wrote: |
The ESL industry is regulated by the Ministry of Education. It is the Ministry of Education, not Immigration, that requires ALL English conversation teachers working in the ROK to be Native English speakers and hold a minimum of a Bachelor's from a recognized Four-year uni in an English-speaking country.
E-2 visa applicants, therefore, need a Bachelor's degree because the assumption is that E-2 visa holders will be teaching a foreign language, which falls under MoE regulations.
F-4 Permanent Residents, on the other hand, like Korean citizens, are not restricted in employment, therefore, are not required to possess degrees of any kind -- they must meet Permanent Residency requirements such as producing a Hojujok. However, if F-4 residents wish to teach English or any other foreign language in Korea, they must meet MoE requirements, i.e., having a Uni degree.
So, in summary:
F-4 = Permanent Resident status (no educational requirements because it is not a visa)
E-2 = work visa/Foreign language expert (Educational requirement under Immigration and MoE rules.)
F-4s who want to teach must have degrees under MoE rules, not Immigration's. |
Isn't a high school diploma enough for a private tutor license through the MoE? |
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