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EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Tiger Beer wrote:

...this is where she went wrong. darfur?...there are thousands of NGO groups crawling all over Darfur...maybe the annoying whining online blogger can put her resources into those groups...rather than asking the US government to do something -- never a good option.

I believe it is not "Darfur," per se. Darfur is simply the pretext to vent her extremist antiEstablishment and antiBush views. If Darfur did not exist, she would likely find another pretext and produce a similar diatribe.

The point of the article is not to provoke a debate on Darfur, then, but rather to show how her position (and the others like her) exceeds the bounds of reasonable criticism and, indeed, is bound up in deep-seated personal crises and dysfunctionality.

Also, for BLT Trainer: you seem to sympathize with this woman's frustration and you also pronounce this...

BLT Trainer wrote:

Fact: my stance on most issues is, in fact, relatively cent[rist].

Just for clarification, what exactly does "relatively" centrist mean, and, also, who would you say has views to the left of yours -- on this board and/or in U.S. politics, that is?

You, sir ostrich, are irrelevant. But when I ahve time I'll crawl down to your level of irrelevancy. Might have to await the weekend, so don't hold your breath.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Ontheway: ELT trainer has NOT advocated violence against any person or group as I can see from reading his posts.

Urban Myth: Simply because one does not advocate violence, does not mean that violence will not be carried out by those who read such posts. Jesus did not exactly advocate violence...but look at all the bloodshed that has been supposedly shed in His name. Some people will confine themselves to writing/speaking in the name of protest, others will take it further and use violence. And writing and speaking can, and has led to numberous acts of violence.

Below is a brief and partial recitation of BLT-Trainer and Ontheway's -- and one or two others' -- hyperbolic pronouncements that are exactly the kind of pronouncements that incite or otherwise encourage political violence, especially when gone unclarified...and granted, he is a very impulsive writer, so perhaps he did not necessiarly mean what he said at the time...

BLT Trainer wrote:

Too much slack for too many presidents. Time to end this new kind of kingship. Bush has shown just how dangerous it is. His complete lack of respect for the institutions that created the office he occupies allows him to do this. His ideology trumps all, which is exactly why the checks and balances exist. Time to strengthen them again.

-- seems to invoke regicide, to one degree or another, as if it were somehow appropriate to the case at hand.

Ontheway wrote:

It's really tough when you know Bush is evil but the Democrats are evil too.

-- evokes absolutist "good vs. evil" imagery.

BLT Trainer wrote:

See, going to war jus' cuz yer pappy embarrassed himself is not legal, nor moral, nor constitutional. The przzydent ain't got thuh right to put thu nashion at risk and get tens a thouzens kilt just cuz.

-- demonstrates utter contempt for the President, who we are supposed to believe is totally out of control and irrational, and this would tend to support anyone who had already concluded that one form or another of BLT's apparent ill-considered reference to regicide and its consequences.

BLT Trainer wrote:

And when have I said impeach him only over the war? But the war is still impeachable. For example, the approval of the use of force was gained by lying to congress, the nation and the world. That is treason. It puts personal glory and/or gain against the good of the nation. The president is sworn to protect the nation, and Bush has only put it in danger. This is far and away an abrogation of his oath and duties as president. It is a crime to cause the death of others unnecessarily. It's called manslaughter or negligent homicide.

BLT Trainer wrote:

This is a betrayal of the nation, congress and the constitution whether you like it or not. That's treason.

BLT Trainer wrote:

This violates his oath and the constitution and makes him a murderer.

-- levels accusations against the President for "treason" and several other especially egregious crimes, nearly all of which call for capital punishment.

Ontheway wrote:

It is the US GOVERNMENT, Democrats and Republicans, that are evil...

Ontheway wrote:

Countries fall because they follow crazy, evil and/or incompetent leaders. Bush is all three...for terrorizing the American people.

-- evokes absolutist "good vs. evil" imagery.

Ontheway wrote:

It you could wake up the founding fathers and show them America today, they would lead a second revolution immediately.

Ontheway wrote:

We should have impeached FDR before the war, LBJ, Nixon (but he resigned), Clinton (he was impeached for the wrong reasons) and Bush I and II. These presidents broke their oaths to uphold the constitution. They did great harm to the American people. They undermined the principles of liberty the US is based on.

Ontheway wrote:

Bush ll is only the latest incarnation of this interventionist policy. Of course George W. didn't create Bin Laden. That was his father's generation's legacy. From GHW Bush's days in the CIA. LBJ, Nixon and Kissinger. As I said, Bush and "his ilk". The interventionists have been around along time. Their first great success was the imposition of the Federal Income Tax and the Federal Reserve. America's problems all come from interventionism and socialism.

-- makes the same analysis and calls for the same violent action as McVeigh, the Michigan Militia, the Montain Men, and other right-wing extremists in the mid-1990s did. Evidence of extremist politics.

Ontheway wrote:

Bush is either criminally insane, criminally stupid or, just a criminal...It's too bad that hard core Republicans insist on supporting such scum.

-- more allegations of egregious behavior, plus harsh language.

Ontheway wrote:

...people who hate Americans because of things the US government has done. Evil things.

Ontheway wrote:

US interventionism began before Bin Laden was born. He grew up in it. He was radicalized by it. He is an engineer by training and he expects people to follow principles. (His engineering training is how he knew he could bring down the twin towers with airliners. These buildings are not like the others oft posted by conspiracy theorists. The twin towers had a different kind of support structure supported from the middle.) People who follow these terrorists are people looking for leadership. They are looking for principled answers. They find the US lacking.

-- buys into and supports bin Laden's line about the legitimacy of violent antiAmericanism. Evidence of extremist politics.

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=49754

Desultude wrote:

Oh, with that list, I can definitively say "None of the Above"...A bunch of pandering prostitutes, all of them.

BJWD wrote:

I don't think it really makes a difference which thieving jerkoff gets elected...The only party that represents the Idea of America is the Libertarian Party. But media and the idiots will ensure that it continues to be marginalized.

Ontheway wrote:

...your list is stupid. No one on the list believes in liberty. If the US actually had free elections the Libertarian would win.

-- some responses to a "how would you vote?" poll that listed the potentially front-running mainstream presidential candidates. Evidence of extremist politics.

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=54189

BLT Trainer wrote:

No conscience whatsoever.

-- dehumanizes the President.

Some Waygug-in wrote:

I really wonder if America can be saved at this point. Even if Bush were kicked out of office today, and a Democratically elected government were put in place, could they even begin to repair the damage he and his cronies have done?...This may be a shock to you, but the world IS ending for a lot of people who have to fight in Iraq and the many other people whose lives were destroyed by the policies of the Bush gang.

-- typical reference to the end-of-the-world predictions that antiBush crowd makes every day.

Some Waygug-in wrote:

Why shouldn't people be mad as hell at a guy who never should have been in office in the first place?

-- typcial rejection of the legal process W. Bush's opponents cite daily.

BLT Trainer wrote:

How can it possibly hurt to loudly, even belligerently, bring attention to the harm the twit in the White House has done?

BLT Trainer wrote:

To call people who are angry as hell, as disgusted as they can possibly, and worried as much as is possible about what he is doing to the nation and the world "extremists" is absurd. The extreme position is to be doing what YOU do, gopher, and that is NOTHING...The position you hold is indefensible and untenable. The little bubble you live in is going to pop. And in this one particular case, I am glad in the knowledge that the little fantasy you live in is going to crash down around you before your time comes.

-- suggests extreme violence; dehumanizes the President.

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=52708

BLT Trainer wrote:

The man has wrecked the world for decades to come.

-- typical hyperbole or rant that presents the President as something akin to Antichrist.

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=51608

BLT Trainer wrote:

Homicide, negligent homicide, manslaughter.... take your pick. Starting a war under false pretenses, i.e., mis-using the governemnt/military for personal reasons, leading to the deaths of tens of thousands is, at the very least, manslughter...Acting directly against the best interests of the nation. Bush put his personal agenda above the safety and welfare of the nation. That is treason.

BLT Trainer wrote:

While Joe Dufus is willing to support a criminal in the presidency, I am not...

-- levels accusations against the President for "treason" and several other especially egregious crimes, nearly all of which call for extreme responses and/or capital punishment.

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=46425

BLT Trainer wrote:

The War on Iraq, a.k.a., The Insanity in the White House, has just claimed an entire US city...a very direct cause and effect. it's been on-going stupidity, but Bush specifically cut funding to the elements causing the disaster...Bush carries complete blame.

-- claims that W. Bush caused the Katrina disaster and its aftermath. Tends to support the Antichrist paradigm.

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=44066

I could go on in much more detail.

I think you get my points. This is irresponsible. It does no credit to this board. It cheapens our experience here.

But the real point is that this kind of rhetoric leads to political violence, from flag burnings to 9/11.

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:20 am Post subject:

Again, don't have time, but you're a joke. The hyperbole just gets wilder and wilder. But we're out of control. Love my new name. You done Briar Patched my butt!!! Thank you very much.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:03 am Post subject:

EFLtrainer wrote:

Love my new name. You done Briar Patched my butt!!!

Not any worse than you referring to the President as "dumbya," which is another sign of your extremist views.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:37 am Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

Quote:

EFLtrainer wrote:
Love my new name. You done Briar Patched my butt!!!

Not any worse than you referring to the President as "dumbya," which is another sign of your extremist views.

Referring to Bush as "Dumbya" is a sign of having a lame sense of humour, sure. But a sign of extremist views? I dunno about that.

Are we now extending the definition of "extremist views" to include thinking that a particular individual is not very bright?

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:05 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Are we now extending the definition of "extremist views" to include thinking that a particular individual is not very bright?

No. If you think the President is not very bright, and I agree that he isn't, that is fine.

Constantly calling him "Dumbya" is antagonistic, contemptuous, and evidence of extremist politics, however.

Last edited by Gopher on Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:13 am Post subject:

Quote:

On the other hand wrote:
Are we now extending the definition of "extremist views" to include thinking that a particular individual is not very bright?

No. If you think the President is not very bright, and I agree that he isn't, that is fine.

Constantly calling him "Dumbya" is antagonistic, contempuous, and evidence of extremist politics, however.

Umm, I still don't see how you get from "constantly uses the same joke to insult someone" to "has extremist politics".

You yourself say that you don't think Bush is very bright. So what's the difference between expressing that straight out, as you do, or using a bit of humour, as EFLtrainer does?

(And I admit I'm being generous in my use of the word "humour" here)

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:43 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

This is an interesting issue.

I see him as an extremist. His use of "Dumbya" is continuing evidence of this -- in and of itself, hardly significant, but part of the totality of what BLT presents, that is another thing. I see it, then, in the larger context of his clearly and obsessively hostile, intolerant, and extremist views towards W. Bush, views that exceed the bounds of reasonable criticism.

You seem to think "Dumbya" is mere joking or levity. Are you kidding?

In any case, why is it necessary to repeat the same joke a thousand times, and why do you believe his motives are to present this as a joke?

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject:

Quote:

In any case, why is it necessary to repeat the same joke a thousand times, and why do you believe his motives are to present this as a joke?

I agree, the joke is lame.

His motives for repeating it? He doesn't like Bush, and wants to express his dislike for the man with humour. Jon Stewart does the same thing every night(albeit a helluva lot better). What's the big deal?

Quote:

His use of "Dumbya" is continuing evidence of this -- in and of itself, hardly significant, but part of the totality of what BLT presents, that is another thing. I see it, then, in the larger context of his clearly and obsessively hostile, intolerant, and extremist views towards W. Bush, views that exceed the bounds of reasonable criticism.

If all the other stuff he writes is evidence of extremism, then I see no need to focus on one line that millions of other people might use. Consider the following statement...

"I think someone should unleash nerve gas over Tokyo to show that idiot Koizumi that Dok-do is Korean territory."

Now, in this instance, the fact that the guy advaocates nerve-gassing Tokyo is evidence that he is an extremist, no need to focus on the fact that he called Koizumi an idiot. And the only reason I could think to focus on his use of that word would be to insinuate that anyone who ridicules Koizumi is an extremist.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject:

OntheOtherHand wrote:

And the only reason I could think to focus on his use of that word would be to insinuate that anyone who ridicules Koizumi is an extremist.

I have not alleged or implied this. I referenced the totality of BLT's positions, statements, and the tone of his verbiage.

I laugh at Stewart's ridicule when I see it; and I also laugh at Saturday Night's skits concerning the President. I bought and passed around the book on Bushisms after he was elected in 2000. These do not strike me in the least as extremist.

Contrast their satire with the statements and tone I reference above.

Also, I am not so sure as you are that BLT's intentions are to make satire as much as he is expressing contempt and just ranting, each and every time he says "dumbya" -- but then again, neither of us really knows for certain about the guy's motives; we don't even know him.

In any case, I've stated my objections. BLT may call him what he wishes.

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

EFLtrainer wrote:

Love my new name. You done Briar Patched my butt!!!

Not any worse than you referring to the President as "dumbya," which is another sign of your extremist views.

Your comments is ironic. I know you don't understand that.

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject:

Gopher wrote:

On the other hand wrote:

Are we now extending the definition of "extremist views" to include thinking that a particular individual is not very bright?

Again with the irony. Or is that hypocrisy? I vote for both.

More straw?

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:00 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

(And I admit I'm being generous in my use of the word "humour" here)

It's not meant to be funny, so no prob. Smile

Nowhere Man

Joined: 08 Feb 2004

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: ...

Quote:

Quote:
Ontheway: ELT trainer has NOT advocated violence against any person or group as I can see from reading his posts.

Urban Myth: Simply because one does not advocate violence, does not mean that violence will not be carried out by those who read such posts. Jesus did not exactly advocate violence...but look at all the bloodshed that has been supposedly shed in His name. Some people will confine themselves to writing/speaking in the name of protest, others will take it further and use violence. And writing and speaking can, and has led to numberous acts of violence.

Below is a brief and partial recitation of BLT-Trainer and Ontheway's -- and one or two others' -- hyperbolic pronouncements that are exactly the kind of pronouncements that incite or otherwise encourage political violence, especially when gone unclarified...and granted, he is a very impulsive writer, so perhaps he did not necessiarly mean what he said at the time...

1) You start off by accusing someone of hyerbole.

2) You go on to suggest that the same people are "inciting violence" through their statements.

You are a joke.

Quote:

-- seems to invoke regicide, to one degree or another, as if it were somehow appropriate to the case at hand.

Seems to invoke murder?

Calling for "an end to the Bush administration" means you want him murdered?

Are you, seriously, a PhD candidate in political sciences?

Quote:

Ontheway wrote:
It's really tough when you know Bush is evil but the Democrats are evil too.

-- evokes absolutist "good vs. evil" imagery.

Stating that both sides of the US political spectrum are evil is making "good vs. evil" imagery.

Logically, I think it's making evil vs. evil imagery.

You use the word "absolutist" after you accuse someone of inciting "regicide" because they called for "an end to the Bush administration".

Quote:

BLT Trainer wrote:
See, going to war jus' cuz yer pappy embarrassed himself is not legal, nor moral, nor constitutional. The przzydent ain't got thuh right to put thu nashion at risk and get tens a thouzens kilt just cuz.

-- demonstrates utter contempt for the President, who we are supposed to believe is totally out of control and irrational, and this would tend to support anyone who had already concluded that one form or another of BLT's apparent ill-considered reference to regicide and its consequences.

I wasn't going to go through this quote-by-quote, but here you are accusing EFL of inciting regicide. You introduced the word "regicide".

If I call for "an end to political action commitees", does that mean I think lobbyists should be executed?

And you start this off by accusing someone of hyperbole?

Quote:

-- levels accusations against the President for "treason" and several other especially egregious crimes, nearly all of which call for capital punishment.

He/They think it's treason. The president can be imeached for "treason or other high crimes and misdemeanours".

A president guilty of treason would be removed from office. I'm not aware of any case ever where it meant capital punishment. "High crimes and misdemeanours" is a vague statement meaning that Congress is allowed to interpret violations as it sees fit. Hence, a majority of congress could remove the president from office based on any number of things. Hence, your repeated insistence that there is insufficient evidence to impeach Bush is simply an opinion.

Suggesting that other posters are calling for Bush to be executed is LUDICROUS.

Quote:

Ontheway wrote:
It you could wake up the founding fathers and show them America today, they would lead a second revolution immediately.

Ontheway wrote:
We should have impeached FDR before the war, LBJ, Nixon (but he resigned), Clinton (he was impeached for the wrong reasons) and Bush I and II. These presidents broke their oaths to uphold the constitution. They did great harm to the American people. They undermined the principles of liberty the US is based on.

Ontheway wrote:
Bush ll is only the latest incarnation of this interventionist policy. Of course George W. didn't create Bin Laden. That was his father's generation's legacy. From GHW Bush's days in the CIA. LBJ, Nixon and Kissinger. As I said, Bush and "his ilk". The interventionists have been around along time. Their first great success was the imposition of the Federal Income Tax and the Federal Reserve. America's problems all come from interventionism and socialism.

-- makes the same analysis and calls for the same violent action as McVeigh, the Michigan Militia, the Montain Men, and other right-wing extremists in the mid-1990s did. Evidence of extremist politics.

Calls for "the same violent action"?

Where above do you see a call for violent action, IDIOT?

You oppose independent counsel investigations because they lead to witch hunts.

cough***cough***

Quote:

Ontheway wrote:
Bush is either criminally insane, criminally stupid or, just a criminal...It's too bad that hard core Republicans insist on supporting such scum.

-- more allegations of egregious behavior, plus harsh language.

egregious
adj : conspicuously and outrageously bad or reprehensible; "a
crying shame"; "an egregious lie"; "flagrant violation
of human rights"; "a glaring error"; "gross
ineptitude"; "gross injustice"; "rank treachery"

Yes, these are allegations of egregious behavior. Is it unfair to accuse Bush of "egregious behavior"?

Your point is what?

Harsh language?

You've just accused people of inciting "regicide".

Quote:

-- buys into and supports bin Laden's line about the legitimacy of violent antiAmericanism. Evidence of extremist politics.

Supports Bin Laden? Supports violent anti-Americanism?

Quote:

-- some responses to a "how would you vote?" poll that listed the potentially front-running mainstream presidential candidates. Evidence of extremist politics.

Honest commentary about a loaded poll that you yourself posted. Evidence of non-Gopherist politics.

Quote:

BLT Trainer wrote:
No conscience whatsoever.

-- dehumanizes the President.

Offers an opinion about the conscience of the president. Is it extreme to suggest he has no conscience? Why don't you take a poll about it?

Does that reduce the president to "animal" standing? That's your suggestion, not one that I see other people offering.

Quote:

Some Waygug-in wrote:
I really wonder if America can be saved at this point. Even if Bush were kicked out of office today, and a Democratically elected government were put in place, could they even begin to repair the damage he and his cronies have done?...This may be a shock to you, but the world IS ending for a lot of people who have to fight in Iraq and the many other people whose lives were destroyed by the policies of the Bush gang.

-- typical reference to the end-of-the-world predictions that antiBush crowd makes every day.

Your interpretation of this as end-of-the-world. To me, it says that the damage done to our credibiity as a nation may be irrevocable.

You see it as end-of-the-world? Hey, you also termed calling for an end to the Bush administration regicide. Clearly that makes you an authority.

Quote:

BLT Trainer wrote:
How can it possibly hurt to loudly, even belligerently, bring attention to the harm the twit in the White House has done?

BLT Trainer wrote:
To call people who are angry as hell, as disgusted as they can possibly, and worried as much as is possible about what he is doing to the nation and the world "extremists" is absurd. The extreme position is to be doing what YOU do, gopher, and that is NOTHING...The position you hold is indefensible and untenable. The little bubble you live in is going to pop. And in this one particular case, I am glad in the knowledge that the little fantasy you live in is going to crash down around you before your time comes.

-- suggests extreme violence; dehumanizes the President.

Suggests extreme violence?

Quote:

BLT Trainer wrote:
The man has wrecked the world for decades to come.

-- typical hyperbole or rant that presents the President as something akin to Antichrist.

Hey, Goph, I think that might be an extreme statement. Then again, you are accusing EFLTrainer on this thread of calling for the murder of Bush.

That's WRONG.

Quote:

-- levels accusations against the President for "treason" and several other especially egregious crimes, nearly all of which call for extreme responses and/or capital punishment.

Done this already. Is there some law that says you can't accuse the president of treason?

Quote:

BLT Trainer wrote:
The War on Iraq, a.k.a., The Insanity in the White House, has just claimed an entire US city...a very direct cause and effect. it's been on-going stupidity, but Bush specifically cut funding to the elements causing the disaster...Bush carries complete blame.

-- claims that W. Bush caused the Katrina disaster and its aftermath. Tends to support the Antichrist paradigm.

Bush caused Katrina? You're dumbing down his statement.

Worth noting:

Gopher, you don't acknowledge when you're wrong.

That's weak.

This thread makes your whole suggestion of wanting things truly fair and balanced seem weak.

I'm not defending EFLTrainer. Let him post as he sees fit. We are independent.

Challenge his or my or anyone else's posts as you see fit.

Suffer the consequences when you are COMPLETELY OUT OF LINE.

We can have a fairly ascerbic forum here and trusts the mods to stop anything that gets out of hand.

On the other hand, you are accusing EFL and a whole host of other people on this thread of inciting violence based on your own specious, inflammatory, and biased remarks.

And, as much fun as you might have had seeing EFL get dressed down on his "impeach this" thread, that thread was by and large simply offering a very general opinion of his thoughts about the Bush administration.

While I doubt EFL likes you, he by no means suggested that you wanted our head of state murdered.

While I doubt that you like him or even me, your statements on this thread are completely out of hand.

They're ridiculous.

Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject:

Igotthisguitar wrote:

...the neocons are currently doing a fine enough job of destroying America...manipulating puppet Bush to do their bidding the country's quickly becoming more like AmeriKa everyday.

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=46056

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=46131

Nowhere Man wrote:

I'm a bit tired of people who voted or reacted one way or another because of the hateful/not-nice positions against our current president...After 5 years of this government, any rational human being has one of two opinions: It's good, or it's bad. If you're still worming your way between the two, you are a seriously limp-wristed whiner...

Nowhere Man wrote:

I believe there is damning evidence to hate Bush...I hate him.

Nowhere Man wrote:

Just because you choose to tolerate and apologize for a homicidal idiot since that's what you expect from him makes you more objective than me?

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=42695

Let's not forget this extremist link currently attached to your signature, shall we...?

http://www.ericblumrich.com/idiot.html

-- depicts W. Bush as Satan, claims W. Bush and Powell are Nazis, and explicitly encourages hatred of the United States government.

Last edited by Gopher on Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

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