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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:00 am Post subject: |
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jaganath69,
Thanks for the link.  Just out of curiosity, do the majority of people in Irian Jaya support independence from Indonesia, or are these people who are applying for asylum just part of a small independence movement? ** curious **
I found one website which stated, "After the Indonesians defeated the Dutch in 1949 and 1950, the Dutch insisted on keeping Irian Jaya. They finally gave up the colony in 1963, under a combination of military and diplomatic pressure. In 1969, a UN-sponsored referendum led to Irian Jaya becoming a province of Indonesia." |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
jaganath69,
Thanks for the link. Just out of curiosity, do the majority of people in Irian Jaya support independence from Indonesia, or are these people who are applying for asylum just part of a small independence movement? ** curious **
I found one website which stated, "After the Indonesians defeated the Dutch in 1949 and 1950, the Dutch insisted on keeping Irian Jaya. They finally gave up the colony in 1963, under a combination of military and diplomatic pressure. In 1969, a UN-sponsored referendum led to Irian Jaya becoming a province of Indonesia." |
It would depend where you went in Indo. Those in the highlands and remote areas, mostly ethnic Papuans would be more inclined to support independence. Those on the coasts where there are more mixed melanesian-malay would be less likely to do so. I don't begrudge the Papuans their feelings on the issue, but personally believe it to be a bad idea for reasons outlined earlier. OPM (Orginisasi Papua Merdeka) have been struggling for this for a long time and the people there have had to contend with some pretty egrarious human rights abuses. However, I believe that there can be an Aceh style accomodation in this case too. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:08 am Post subject: |
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Do you also support the Israeli claim to the 'occupied territories' and the right of Israeli settlers to settle such land? After all, they have had sovereignty over that land for longer than Indonesia has had over Western Papua.
If not, please explain how this situation is different from the invasion, and subsequent settlement of Muslims in Western Papua. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
Do you also support the Israeli claim to the 'occupied territories' and the right of Israeli settlers to settle such land? After all, they have had sovereignty over that land for longer than Indonesia has had over Western Papua.
If not, please explain how this situation is different from the invasion, and subsequent settlement of Muslims in Western Papua. |
I'll answer your unrelated question when you address your blatently facetious statement regarding the independence of Bali. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| That was the second part of my argument. As for the lack of infrastructure, geography and population or lack thereof play a large part. Jungle, mangrove coastal areas and a mountainous interior with a tiny population spread over a large area are significant barriers to development of Papua. |
You raise interesting points, but malay/papua relations are due to Indonesian influence, not natural expansion. Though if the coastal areas that have a desire to be independent could create a nation, then later they could sell the message to the interior, just as Australia did over 50 yrs in Papua New Guinea.
I understand that we probably will never agree fully on this issue as I have seen the political face of opm while you have seen the political face of the indonesian government and you support the so called indonesian stance while I support the dissenters, both papuan and others.
Problematic is an issue that depends on many points, though it is good to discuss this with an aware individual. |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| It would depend where you went in Indo. Those in the highlands and remote areas, mostly ethnic Papuans would be more inclined to support independence. Those on the coasts where there are more mixed melanesian-malay would be less likely to do so. I don't begrudge the Papuans their feelings on the issue, but personally believe it to be a bad idea for reasons outlined earlier. OPM (Orginisasi Papua Merdeka) have been struggling for this for a long time and the people there have had to contend with some pretty egrarious human rights abuses. However, I believe that there can be an Aceh style accomodation in this case too. |
I had friends from Indonesia when I was in college, and sometimes I wish I had the time and money to go there and study the language. It's a big, fascinating country, and I've heard Bhasa Indonesia is one of the easier Asian languages to learn. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
| It would depend where you went in Indo. Those in the highlands and remote areas, mostly ethnic Papuans would be more inclined to support independence. Those on the coasts where there are more mixed melanesian-malay would be less likely to do so. I don't begrudge the Papuans their feelings on the issue, but personally believe it to be a bad idea for reasons outlined earlier. OPM (Orginisasi Papua Merdeka) have been struggling for this for a long time and the people there have had to contend with some pretty egrarious human rights abuses. However, I believe that there can be an Aceh style accomodation in this case too. |
I had friends from Indonesia when I was in college, and sometimes I wish I had the time and money to go there and study the language. It's a big, fascinating country, and I've heard Bhasa Indonesia is one of the easier Asian languages to learn. |
It's about as easy as a language gets, and it's spoken by 200 million+ people as well.
I think (since I've never been there) the hardest part would be actually using it, since apparently their English level is so high there, and also in Malaysia and Singapore. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| jaganath69 wrote: |
| It would depend where you went in Indo. Those in the highlands and remote areas, mostly ethnic Papuans would be more inclined to support independence. Those on the coasts where there are more mixed melanesian-malay would be less likely to do so. I don't begrudge the Papuans their feelings on the issue, but personally believe it to be a bad idea for reasons outlined earlier. OPM (Orginisasi Papua Merdeka) have been struggling for this for a long time and the people there have had to contend with some pretty egrarious human rights abuses. However, I believe that there can be an Aceh style accomodation in this case too. |
I had friends from Indonesia when I was in college, and sometimes I wish I had the time and money to go there and study the language. It's a big, fascinating country, and I've heard Bhasa Indonesia is one of the easier Asian languages to learn. |
It's about as easy as a language gets, and it's spoken by 200 million+ people as well.
I think (since I've never been there) the hardest part would be actually using it, since apparently their English level is so high there, and also in Malaysia and Singapore. |
Its a language you can always use there, despite the high levels of English literacy. Most educated Indonesians will have no problems switching between Bahasa Indo and English, but beyond that there are so many more who don't. Mith you are right about it being easy and with about a year under your belt, one could expect to be reasonably fluent. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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From the SMH's Paul Sheehan, who is on the right of the political spectrum
Beware false flags, false countries and false hopes. Australia is surrounded by nations which have all the trappings of sovereignty and coherence - flags, borders, legislatures - but all the reality of failed states. They are not really nations at all, but amalgams of competing ethnic traditions artificially fused together by European colonisers.
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What had been happening, until yet another intervention by Australian ideological activists, was a patient, low-profile effort by the Australian Government to obtain greater autonomy and better governance for the people of Papua. Now, thanks to the principled but ultimately misguided decision to grant political asylum, that quiet campaign has almost certainly been destroyed.
read the whole article here
http://smh.com.au/news/paul-sheehan/blamethrowers-miss-the-mark/2006/04/23/1145730804863.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1 |
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