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hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: School's Out Forever |
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| Satori wrote: |
| As for keeping them naive, it's a well known fact that the majority of homeschooling is done by whacky christian fundy types to keep thier kids away from real information about the reality of the world. |
Funny, I'd say compulsory education - e.g. public education - has the effect of keeping kids away from "real information". Humans cannot currently experience the reality of the world, but we can hope to experience various realities of the world. Emic vs. Etic.
If you posit that you have experience of the Etic, I'd love to hear it. It would, of course, have to get communicated without the use of any form of language, being that all language passes through Emic filters of perception and information transaction.
You seem to be expressing quite fundamentalist views while simultaneously endorsing integral philosophies. That paradox will surely limit progress.
To be sure, all ideas are not equal, but the soap box upon which you stand doesn't appear nearly as sturdy as you seem to think it.
Namaste. |
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hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Corporal, it's already been pointed out in the OP that kids tend to learn better and have higher academic scores than public schooled ones. I am trying to discuss the social aspect of it. |
You mean the social aspect of dumbing down the potential of humans so that they can integrate into social scenarios frequented by domesticated primates? [ref. Wilhelm Reich's Listen Little Man!]
I'd rather have an antisocial child who refused to partake in the frivolity enjoyed by the ignorant masses than a child who readily lost themselves in Maya.
Namaste. |
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Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
Corporal, it's already been pointed out in the OP that kids tend to learn better and have higher academic scores than public schooled ones. I am trying to discuss the social aspect of it. |
But you talked specifically about being limited to one or two teacher's viewpoints. I'm saying that there's no guarantee that your child is going to benefit from being shipped around to six or seven lackluster teachers throughout the day, whose concern over the broadening and shaping of your specific child's personality/social skills is probably fairly far down the list. They're more likely thinking about how many papers they have to grade or worrying about how to deal with troublemakers.
I want to be clear I'm not trying simply to bash public school teachers, either here or back home. Many of them are dedicated people. I'm just saying that a dedicated parent would be hard put not to do a better job across the board--providing viewpoints, giving talk time, coming up with specially structured activities, organizing social outings, etc.--that are geared to their child's needs and abilities.
Of course some parents should never homeschool, just like some teachers should never teach. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Corporal wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
Corporal, it's already been pointed out in the OP that kids tend to learn better and have higher academic scores than public schooled ones. I am trying to discuss the social aspect of it. |
But you talked specifically about being limited to one or two teacher's viewpoints. I'm saying that there's no guarantee that your child is going to benefit from being shipped around to six or seven lackluster teachers throughout the day, whose concern over the broadening and shaping of your specific child's personality/social skills is probably fairly far down the list. They're more likely thinking about how many papers they have to grade or worrying about how to deal with troublemakers.
I want to be clear I'm not trying simply to bash public school teachers, either here or back home. Many of them are dedicated people. I'm just saying that a dedicated parent would be hard put not to do a better job across the board--providing viewpoints, giving talk time, coming up with specially structured activities, organizing social outings, etc.--that are geared to their child's needs and abilities.
Of course some parents should never homeschool, just like some teachers should never teach. |
I meant getting different view of things from different people. 
But let's say the parent hates math which a lot of BAs seem to do, this will show and the kid will most likely also be prejudiced against it even if he/she is good at it. EVERY parent will be biased in some (or many) way and that is truly exponentiated (is that a word???) when that same person teaches them all through life. The parent who thinks science is more important that history will most likely focus more on that. Don't tell me these people manage to overcome this cause it is impossible. The parent's bias will show through and possibly stunt a kids growth in a particular area. Most teachers are atleast somewhat enthusiastic about their subject, even if not so much in class. BUt I would rather my children have some bad and some good, some lazy and some enthusiastic teachers than me as I know I am biased and while I would teach them properly, I have no doubt my lack of enthusiasm would show through.
This doesn't even touch the social aspect of it, which I am still waiting to hear someone give a good reason why homeschooling outperforms public school. |
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hermes.trismegistus
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| This doesn't even touch the social aspect of it, which I am still waiting to hear someone give a good reason why homeschooling outperforms public school. |
I'm still waiting for someone to give a good reason why socialization - in a society that values the innane - matters.
Namaste. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| This doesn't even touch the social aspect of it, which I am still waiting to hear someone give a good reason why homeschooling outperforms public school. |
School socializes kids to act as "kids". Unfortunately, they will spend the vast majority of their life as "adults". Thus, school is maladaptive and uneducational in the socializing of students/young learners.
Kids learn all sorts of horrible 'socializing" behaviour in school. Things that make them very ill prepared and continually adolescent throughout their adult years. Many ills are from the very fact that kids are conditioned to perpetually be kids.
Much evidence exists to show the negative socializing aspect of schools. Much evidence shows how when kids hang around adults, mostly adults, they grow up to be very well socialized and functioning members of society. Kids should spend more time with adults in preparation of being "adults". NOT, hanging out in a class with 30 other kids and one other disfunctional and probably kid socialized, "teacher"....
I won't take the time to cite evidence for such an obvious thing. Please see Neil Postman's " The End of Education - redefining the value of school " for a full discussion. Also of note, Illych's brave work , Deschooling Society where he argues that school is only a socializing activity -- brainwashing and its most focused aspect is to keep those who are not "elites" from feeling they CAN and from reaching high -- preserving the entreched, privledged majority........
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| This doesn't even touch the social aspect of it, which I am still waiting to hear someone give a good reason why homeschooling outperforms public school. |
School socializes kids to act as "kids". Unfortunately, they will spend the vast majority of their life as "adults". Thus, school is maladaptive and uneducational in the socializing of students/young learners.
Kids learn all sorts of horrible 'socializing" behaviour in school. Things that make them very ill prepared and continually adolescent throughout their adult years. Many ills are from the very fact that kids are conditioned to perpetually be kids.
Much evidence exists to show the negative socializing aspect of schools. Much evidence shows how when kids hang around adults, mostly adults, they grow up to be very well socialized and functioning members of society. Kids should spend more time with adults in preparation of being "adults". NOT, hanging out in a class with 30 other kids and one other disfunctional and probably kid socialized, "teacher"....
I won't take the time to cite evidence for such an obvious thing. Please see Neil Postman's " The End of Education - redefining the value of school " for a full discussion. Also of note, Illych's brave work , Deschooling Society where he argues that school is only a socializing activity -- brainwashing and its most focused aspect is to keep those who are not "elites" from feeling they CAN and from reaching high -- preserving the entreched, privledged majority........
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| This doesn't even touch the social aspect of it, which I am still waiting to hear someone give a good reason why homeschooling outperforms public school. |
School socializes kids to act as "kids". Unfortunately, they will spend the vast majority of their life as "adults". Thus, school is maladaptive and uneducational in the socializing of students/young learners.
Kids learn all sorts of horrible 'socializing" behaviour in school. Things that make them very ill prepared and continually adolescent throughout their adult years. Many ills are from the very fact that kids are conditioned to perpetually be kids.
Much evidence exists to show the negative socializing aspect of schools. Much evidence shows how when kids hang around adults, mostly adults, they grow up to be very well socialized and functioning members of society. Kids should spend more time with adults in preparation of being "adults". NOT, hanging out in a class with 30 other kids and one other disfunctional and probably kid socialized, "teacher"....
I won't take the time to cite evidence for such an obvious thing. Please see Neil Postman's " The End of Education - redefining the value of school " for a full discussion. Also of note, Illych's brave work , Deschooling Society where he argues that school is only a socializing activity -- brainwashing and its most focused aspect is to keep those who are not "elites" from feeling they CAN and from reaching high -- preserving the entreched, privledged majority........
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| This doesn't even touch the social aspect of it, which I am still waiting to hear someone give a good reason why homeschooling outperforms public school. |
School socializes kids to act as "kids". Unfortunately, they will spend the vast majority of their life as "adults". Thus, school is maladaptive and uneducational in the socializing of students/young learners.
Kids learn all sorts of horrible 'socializing" behaviour in school. Things that make them very ill prepared and continually adolescent throughout their adult years. Many ills are from the very fact that kids are conditioned to perpetually be kids.
Much evidence exists to show the negative socializing aspect of schools. Much evidence shows how when kids hang around adults, mostly adults, they grow up to be very well socialized and functioning members of society. Kids should spend more time with adults in preparation of being "adults". NOT, hanging out in a class with 30 other kids and one other disfunctional and probably kid socialized, "teacher"....
I won't take the time to cite evidence for such an obvious thing. Please see Neil Postman's " The End of Education - redefining the value of school " for a full discussion. Also of note, Illych's brave work , Deschooling Society where he argues that school is only a socializing activity -- brainwashing and its most focused aspect is to keep those who are not "elites" from feeling they CAN and from reaching high -- preserving the entreched, privledged majority........
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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laogaiguk wrote:
OK, MY SECOND POINT!!!
Imagine you went to university and you had only one prof teaching you every class (let's say he was extremely intelligent, funny and social, practically perfect). You would still only get one (or two) person's view on everything. Being homeschooled means you are learning everything from one (or two) people, who have certain set opinions and prejudices (and I am not only talking religious, imagine someone homeschooled by a racist who doesn't really realize he's a racist, or someone who abolutely hates religion, these prejudices would show). |
Completely wrong. We learn fundamentally (and not purely factually) through making personal dialogue with another person. We can do this most effectively through reading. Authors have a voice, they disemminate opinion and arguement. We as readers, argue with them through ourself. Democracy demands an educated popular, literate and able to read and argue with oneself............People educated, don't learn necessarily from the opinions of their teachers (a small and probably very narrow sub-section) but through authors, voice and the interior discussion with themselves.
This interior discussion is very near impossible to nurture in a loud and continually amusing and disjunctive, 30 + kid, crisis prone, need based, classroom...............
DD |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
laogaiguk wrote:
OK, MY SECOND POINT!!!
Imagine you went to university and you had only one prof teaching you every class (let's say he was extremely intelligent, funny and social, practically perfect). You would still only get one (or two) person's view on everything. Being homeschooled means you are learning everything from one (or two) people, who have certain set opinions and prejudices (and I am not only talking religious, imagine someone homeschooled by a racist who doesn't really realize he's a racist, or someone who abolutely hates religion, these prejudices would show). |
Completely wrong. We learn fundamentally (and not purely factually) through making personal dialogue with another person. We can do this most effectively through reading. Authors have a voice, they disemminate opinion and arguement. We as readers, argue with them through ourself. Democracy demands an educated popular, literate and able to read and argue with oneself............People educated, don't learn necessarily from the opinions of their teachers (a small and probably very narrow sub-section) but through authors, voice and the interior discussion with themselves.
This interior discussion is very near impossible to nurture in a loud and continually amusing and disjunctive, 30 + kid, crisis prone, need based, classroom...............
DD |
Completely, huh? Well, you can't ask questions to a book.
You didn't even touch the main point of what I was talking about, people's biases. What books will you read while being homeschooled, most likely the one the teacher picks for you. Their bias is still in play. By the way, what's your point? Did you just copy that out of your sociology book? |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:28 am Post subject: |
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laogaiguk,
How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct.
Benjamin Disraeli |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
laogaiguk,
How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct.
Benjamin Disraeli |
That's not an answer, that's a cop out. And I am one of the few people on this board who will apologize when shown to be wrong. You haven't done that yet or talked about my bias question, or about asking questions if books are so perfect. If you want to prove me wrong, fine, do it. THat is how we learn. But you do need to use an argument to do so. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| hermes.trismegistus wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| This doesn't even touch the social aspect of it, which I am still waiting to hear someone give a good reason why homeschooling outperforms public school. |
I'm still waiting for someone to give a good reason why socialization - in a society that values the innane - matters.
Namaste. |
That wasn't the point of the thread though while it very well could be relevant, you are the one going against pretty much everyone else in the world in my opinion. This means it's your case to prove it doesn't matter. But the point is doesn't homeschooling keep students back socially (even if the socially is unimportant). |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| But the point is doesn't homeschooling keep students back socially (even if the socially is unimportant). |
It is a comment like this that refrains me from entering any "debate" or dialogue with you....it is just nonsense.
I pointed to some seminal works for you to read and which support my arguement (not mere web pages, blablabla journalistic meandering...so much on the internet is just that, nonsense and verbal diarreah). I also said you were wrong because you were. Why?
Well I have taught kids for a long while and there is a plethora of research that supports the premise of "reading", "stories" as being the way children become intelligent (and also by the way, become well socialized, -- meaning, not by knocking about with other 10/14 year olds.). It is almost a mantra in education, especially primary.
Also to address your point about bias. Everything is biased. A student is much better getting info. from books than the few teachers from the same socio-economic background etc....I believe Hermes addressed this point well in his post. Corporal also said it well and some other things.....Bias is everywhere but you can get a lot more viewpoints through "story" than any person. Yeah, you can't ask questions to a book ---- WRONG! You can.
Please maybe see Harold Bloom -- How to read and why? My fav. which really makes the point about reading is Ezra Pound's "The ABC's of Reading" .
There are many who preport that much of the violence, anti-social behaviour and war, mal adjustment in society not only comes from us living in greater numbers, more closely confined BUT because as youth we spend so much of our time with immature and yet adjusted (ie reflective) individuals. [and an intelligent citizen is one who reflects -- in the original, Greek notion of the word gnosis...] Kids who spend much time with adults, tend to be much better adjusted and certainly much better citizens. Ever think of the behaviour of those in bootcamp or those in 1st year university???? They are poorly adjusted because they learn from the group, the chaotic, ego prancing group. War, violence, rape , abberant behaviour is most often the result getting males together like this. Further to my point, females do better in school not because they are quiet and study more but more to the point -- they read more.....they have that internal dialogue more...
I think that there will never be an end of school because it supports the economic priorities of our society. We delay kids from entering the work force, from learning by doing/being. Why? because it pays. ......
I think Samuel Clements said it best -- "don't let your schooling get in the way of your education. "
DD |
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