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Bonds passes Babe Ruth...
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Hater Depot

Joined: 29 Mar 2005

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I think when Babe was hitting his homers he was getting soemthing like twice as many homers than the next guy.

There were times when he hit more homers by himself than other teams hit combined.

jinju

Joined: 22 Jan 2006

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject:

Hater Depot wrote:

Quote:

I think when Babe was hitting his homers he was getting soemthing like twice as many homers than the next guy.

There were times when he hit more homers by himself than other teams hit combined.

Exactly. That shows that he was a monster. Bonds is simply a good hitter who became a powerhitter thanks to copious amounts of pharmaceuticals. He is the best powerhitter of his generation but only by a small margin. Nothing close to what Ruth was.

Woland

Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 9:55 pm Post subject:

huffdaddy wrote:

Gees. He's having a monster season. Still, it'll be tough to beat 73.

Well, Pujols hit number 25 yesterday, so he's on track to do it.

huffdaddy wrote:

Frank's greatest downfall is his own injuries. You expect a DH to have more than a 10 year career (okay, he's been around longer, but only as a shell of his former self). Too bad, he was incredible. I lived in Chicago from 88-05, and even though I'm a Royals fan, Frank always amazed me. Thought for sure he was a HOF shoe-in. Now, I'd say his chances are slim to none.

Well, if you look at Frank's record at Baseball-Reference.com:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/t/thomafr04.shtml

you'll see that he is above the average hall of famer on a couple of tracking measures and close on the others.

My sense is that if he plays a couple more seasons, remains reasonably healthy, and gets past 500 homeruns, he'll easily get in, should be a first ballot selection. Remember that he built his numbers playing half his games in Comiskey new and old, not a power hitter's park. I hope he has a decent comeback season this year. I don't think we can expect another .300/40/100/100/100 season again. The evidence of the last few years (increased k's while walks are steady) suggest that he has lost bat speed rather than his eye, probably as a result of his injuries. His batting average will come down, but his power is still good and he still draws walks. As an aside, he didn't become primarily a DH until 1998; up until then he was a first baseman. And oddly, he has consistently hit better as a first baseman than as a DH.

I think he will be looked back on as the Ted Williams of his era. And just like Williams, I wouldn't call him a 'humble superstar' but a very intense and complex one, who marches to the beat of his own drummer.

Nonetheless, the Sox made the right move in letting him go this year and bringing in Thome.

Hanson

Joined: 20 Oct 2004

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:18 am Post subject:

I still remember him (Frank Thomas) as the guy who takes Tom Sellick's job in Mr. Baseball. And I still remember Barry Bonds as the lanky leadoff man for the Pirates.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 5:58 am Post subject:

Woland wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

Gees. He's having a monster season. Still, it'll be tough to beat 73.

Well, Pujols hit number 25 yesterday, so he's on track to do it.

Still, it'll be tough. he's likely to cool off sooner or later. Not to mention the media attention and pitcher's not giving him anything to hit.

Quote:

huffdaddy wrote:

He'd better be well above the average to get elected. The average HOFer played a position. He's been a bad first baseman / DH his entire career. And he's played in a very offensive era. You really can't compare his numbers to very many HOFers (if any).

Quote:

My sense is that if he plays a couple more seasons, remains reasonably healthy, and gets past 500 homeruns, he'll easily get in, should be a first ballot selection.

600 is the new 500. There were four 500 homerun guys in the majors last year (I think Sosa and Palmeiro are both gone, but I'm not sure). Plus seven or eight more who have a good chance of making it to 500 in the next 4 or 5 years. Unprecedented. Frank will be judged against all of these guys. Offensively, he compares favorably with all of them. Defensively, uh, wait, what defense? Also, now that the Sox have let him go, noone will have any loyalty to keep him on to 500. Right now he's at 220/360/461. Not good numbers for a DH only. Once his homers start to fade, he'll lose all appeal. Remember Dale Murphy?

Quote:

Remember that he built his numbers playing half his games in Comiskey new and old, not a power hitter's park. I hope he has a decent comeback season this year. I don't think we can expect another .300/40/100/100/100 season again. The evidence of the last few years (increased k's while walks are steady) suggest that he has lost bat speed rather than his eye, probably as a result of his injuries. His batting average will come down, but his power is still good and he still draws walks. As an aside, he didn't become primarily a DH until 1998; up until then he was a first baseman. And oddly, he has consistently hit better as a first baseman than as a DH.

Frank's home run splits are about even home/away. So It isn't that big of detriment. And HOF voters rarely consider things like park effects or OBP. Which could be Frank's downfall in the voting. Heck, a lot of the old timers think a big power hitter like Frank shouldn't take so many walks.

Quote:

I think he will be looked back on as the Ted Williams of his era. And just like Williams, I wouldn't call him a 'humble superstar' but a very intense and complex one, who marches to the beat of his own drummer.

Maybe. I'm not sure that I'd compare him to Williams. But he's about as close as there is now a days. I've heard he's a nice guy in person, but I've also heard complaints that he was using non-union labor to build his house - and this was around the time of the last strike. Regardless, it's his numbers that will speak for him. How they look in 6 or 7 years, compared to the others in his class, is the deciding factor.

splok

Joined: 30 Jan 2006

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:20 am Post subject:

jinju wrote:

Well, lets wait 50 years and see. But to me, ofcourse Bonds isnt what Babe was. I think when Babe was hitting his homers he was getting soemthing like twice as many homers than the next guy. The margin over other homer hitters was huge. The league was also smaller so you had less crappy pitchers to hit against. Again, no roids.

Nah, players are much better today, on average, than back then. That's why the truely great players could shine so bright. With the money and training methods available today, the spread between the best and worst players is much smaller than back then, even if there are far more players.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:13 am Post subject:

jinju wrote:

The league was also smaller so you had less crappy pitchers to hit against. Again, no roids.

The league also didn't have any black players, any korean players, japanese players, and very few hispanic players. Different era, different players. No comparison. Put Ruth in the 90's and he's, at best, Cecil Fielder. At worst, Steve Balboni. Put Bonds in the 20's, and he's, well, he's not playing because of his race.

sjrm

Joined: 27 Jul 2005

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject:

[quote="Woland"] I think he will be looked back on as the Ted Williams of his era. And just like Williams, I wouldn't call him a 'humble superstar' but a very intense and complex one, who marches to the beat of his own drummer. quote] but, you've got to consider that frank thomas really even hasn't come close to having a .400 batting average for a full seaon, whereas ted williams is the only player to have done so.

Hater Depot

Joined: 29 Mar 2005

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject:

Actually, quite a few players did it before Williams. Tris Speaker did it 4 times. Ruth once hit .393 with 50+ homers. That's incredible.

sjrm

Joined: 27 Jul 2005

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 3:10 am Post subject:

Hater Depot wrote:

Actually, quite a few players did it before Williams. Tris Speaker did it 4 times. Ruth once hit .393 with 50+ homers. That's incredible.

sorry, i meant the last person to do so. Embarassed

although i know todd helton flirted with it, but playing in colorado, that's not exactly impressive.

Woland

Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:30 am Post subject:

sjrm wrote:

but, you've got to consider that frank thomas really even hasn't come close to having a .400 batting average for a full seaon, whereas ted williams is the only player to have done so.

You should see Steven Jay Gould's article on the disappearance of the .400 hitter and how it is explained by the increased overall quality of performance today compared to the era when .400 was more common. This supports huffdaddy's point about who Babe Ruth would be like if we had a time machine to bring him to today. Sorry I don't have a copy here to give you a reference.

The point of my comparison of Thomas to Willams is that they are both power hitters who also hit for high average and drew high numbers of walks. Both of them have reputations for taking their pride over their eye and command of the plate to the extreme of taking walks when they might have helped their team more by swinging at slightly bad pitches for hits. (of course, complaining about having either of these bats in your lineup would be a bit foolish). Away from the field, both had/have a sort of love/hate relationship with the local fans, with reputations for public moodiness (balanced by many reports of private kindness and charity).

Clearly overall, Williams is the greater of the two. He sustained his abilities over the whole of his career (and don't forget five missing years because of service in WWII and Korea), while injuries have caused a decline in Thomas' abilities over the last 6 years, and especially the last 3. But of contemporary players, Thomas is probably the most comparable to Williams. If we look at peak value, best sustained performance over a five year period, the comparison becomes somewhat closer.

Woland

Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Wed May 31, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject:

huffdaddy wrote:

Woland wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

Gees. He's having a monster season. Still, it'll be tough to beat 73.

Well, Pujols hit number 25 yesterday, so he's on track to do it.

Still, it'll be tough. he's likely to cool off sooner or later. Not to mention the media attention and pitcher's not giving him anything to hit.

Yeah, but it's going to be fun to watch.

huffdaddy wrote:

Of those 500 homerun guys, Bonds, Sosa, and Palmeiro are all implicated in the steroids scandal. I think it will be to Frank's credit that he's clean. (The other one is Ken Griffey, Jr. - and that's another interesting case study for the HOF). So, I don't think 600 is the new 500. I think if Frank makes that number, he'll be in.

Dale Murphy is interesting comparison in that both he and Frank began their declines at about the same age. But Murphy's numbers were never as good as Frank's (Murphy fell short of 400 homers) despite playing in a better home run park. Still, you may be right if Frank can't generate one or two more decent seasons.

Actually, if you look at players of Frank's generation, who besides Griffey is better? Sheffield and Thome will get there, but who else who is clean?

Quote:

I think the coming generation of HOF voters will pay more attention to things like OPS. Word is getting around.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:37 am Post subject:

Woland wrote:

huffdaddy wrote:

Griffey is a shoe in. I think his defense is over-rated, but a multi-gold glove winning centerfielder with 500+ (soon to be 600) homers is a 1st ballot lock.

Other potential 500 guys by the time Frank is HOF eligible: Sheffield, Manny Ramirez, Thome, ARod, & Delgado. Do you think all those guys are HOF worthy? I don't think 500 will be their ticket into the HOF. I agree that Frank is probably better than most of them - if you compare their best years. But the longevity factor will weigh in their favor.

Not to mention around 450, you've got Bagwell, Juan Gonzalez. And Piazza topping 400, as a catcher. Plus the up and coming guys like Pujols, who could rewrite all the record books.

Quote:

Dale Murphy is interesting comparison in that both he and Frank began their declines at about the same age. But Murphy's numbers were never as good as Frank's (Murphy fell short of 400 homers) despite playing in a better home run park. Still, you may be right if Frank can't generate one or two more decent seasons.

But back in the early 80's, 35-40 homers was a lot. Usually led the league. Not to mention Murphy's 5 Gold Gloves, and nice guy image. Still, he is falling well short of the HOF.

Quote:

Actually, if you look at players of Frank's generation, who besides Griffey is better? Sheffield and Thome will get there, but who else who is clean?

Bonds, pre-roids was better, and an automatic first ballot. I'd take Piazza. Maybe Bagwell. Depends on if you're looking for a 6 or 7 awesome years, or 15 pretty good years. Considering that they're only letting one or two guys in a year, the competition is pretty rough. A lot depends on how much they value steroid allegations, OPS, and peak versus career.

Check out this comparison. Similar batters include Bagwell, who compares really well to Frank, but with better defense. McGriff (a poor man's Thomas). Larry Walker, who had Coor's, but also has 7 Gold Gloves.

Quote:

I think the coming generation of HOF voters will pay more attention to things like OPS. Word is getting around.

Maybe. But look at Andre Dawson vesus Dale Murphy. Both have similar OPS, and I compare their stats very favorable. But Dawson has the magic 400. Guess who is getting 50% of the vote and who is getting 10% of the vote? Not the guy with 398 homers.

jajdude

Joined: 18 Jan 2003

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:21 am Post subject:

Sosa was the only one to hit over 60 twice, if I'm not mistaken. That's a cool feat. Steroids perhaps? But maybe a few pitchers use them too? It's a different era. When the Babe played it wasn't a 3 run homer game. A few players like Ty Cobb may have sacrificed average if they went for the fence more often.

huffdaddy

Joined: 25 Nov 2005

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:28 am Post subject:

jajdude wrote:

Sosa was the only one to hit over 60 twice, if I'm not mistaken. That's a cool feat. Steroids perhaps? But maybe a few pitchers use them too?

thrice. yet didn't lead the majors in any of those years. wierd.

1. Barry Bonds* (36) 73 2001 L
2. Mark McGwire (34) 70 1998 R
3. Sammy Sosa (29) 66 1998 R
4. Mark McGwire (35) 65 1999 R
5. Sammy Sosa (32) 64 2001 R
6. Sammy Sosa (30) 63 1999 R
7. Roger Maris* (26) 61 1961 L
8. Babe Ruth+* (32) 60 1927 L

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