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Chinese Military modernization.
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Bulsajo



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wot?!?
You are, but from Five Eagles I'd prefer an ETA on the return of the Messiah...
[guess I should have put a smiley on that post or something]
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jinglejangle



Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Location: Far far far away.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't worry about China's economy in general crashing.

Any individual business, yes, it is a very unstable enviornment, but generally the trend is upwards. Besides, when they are starting from such a low level, a business can start up, run a few years, and then be driven out of business by a hundred new competitors, and still have had a net benifit to the country.

For example, regarding Magnesium production, which I admit I know nothing about, yes, if they flood the market to 150% capacity then many of those little companies will flounder, but the country will still derive benefit from having suddenly monopolized world magnesium production. In other words, for the individual companies there will be turmoil and upheaval, but the country now has the world's mightiest magnesium production sector.

Of course, this assumes that China had a much smaller infrastructure for that industry before, and I don't know if that's true or not.
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fiveeagles



Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bulsajo wrote:
Wot?!?
You are, but from Five Eagles I'd prefer an ETA on the return of the Messiah...
[guess I should have put a smiley on that post or something]


ETA has been delayed because of glory clouds. Razz
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Kuros



Joined: 27 Apr 2004

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jinglejangle wrote:
I don't worry about China's economy in general crashing.

Any individual business, yes, it is a very unstable enviornment, but generally the trend is upwards. Besides, when they are starting from such a low level, a business can start up, run a few years, and then be driven out of business by a hundred new competitors, and still have had a net benifit to the country.

For example, regarding Magnesium production, which I admit I know nothing about, yes, if they flood the market to 150% capacity then many of those little companies will flounder, but the country will still derive benefit from having suddenly monopolized world magnesium production. In other words, for the individual companies there will be turmoil and upheaval, but the country now has the world's mightiest magnesium production sector.

Of course, this assumes that China had a much smaller infrastructure for that industry before, and I don't know if that's true or not.


I respectfully disagree. This has happened to every Asian economy after they've hit high rates of growth. I know too little about Indonesia to cite it, but both Japan and Korea were in their periods of several consecutive years of 8-9% growth before they were hit with backlash from structural problems. The IMF miracle should be well known on this board, but Japan's crash has left the Japanese economy in stagnation up until Koizumi tried to attack the postal graft racket.

Corruption in China is rampant. The country merits roughly a 3 out of 10 on the global transparency and corruption meters in 2005 (Korea 5, Canada and US over 7.5). Moreover, wild-eyed optimistic foreigners invest into areas they don't know well, encouraged by opportunistic local government officials eager for prosperity and graft.

On an unentirely related note, one thing that has gone shamefully under-reported is in the unemployment in China. Contrary to the phenomenon of a flurry of businesses opening that you describe, many Chinese are struggling with long hours to stay employed at a lackluster job. Even in the manufacturing sector, jobs have been lost. I've read figures of well over 5 million since 2000.

The growth rate is indicative of rapid improvements in technology and infrastructure, to be sure. China is rising, I'm not claiming that it isn't. But China is not like Japan and it sure as hell isn't like Korea. Growing pains are ahead. (Actually I'm going to China tomorrow, so I don't feel like linking my data, but its out there, I might come back and link it up again in a week if anyone wants me to back up my case)
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jinglejangle



Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Location: Far far far away.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You make a powerful arguement. Historical precedent in the region does give one reason for pause.

Once again my enthusiasm has been reined in by a calmer head.

I retract my previous statement, but I'll point out that even with the crashes, the Japanese and ROK economies are still light years ahead of where they were 50 years ago (granted, they had recently been bombed to ashes 50 years ago). Japan's economy has stagnated, but they are still a first orld nation and a world leader. Economic downturns are inevitable, but they are also quite survivable.

I still do think that China is likely to wind up being one of two or three major world players 20 years down the road. That is if they can avoid war or serious internal strife.

I want to add one thing regarding unemployment, namely that the Chinese peasents may have been technically employed back in the day, but they were still starving. In a country of that size even small employment fluctuations are likely to feature large numbers, and I still would tend to argue that the average income for the middle to lower class has risen significantly.

I won't debate with you that mass unemployment is a problem for them, but I will argue that it is not yet anywhere near catastrophic.

Hey, have a great trip, and if you think about it when you come back, I would enjoy reading whatever source material you want to link here or send me.
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jinglejangle



Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Location: Far far far away.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't quite the same subject, but I'm currently reading a summarized translation of "Unrestricted Warfare" which was a very influential work of Military Philosophy written by two Chinese officers a few years back.
They are quite insightful, and well worth reading.

Also, my new favorite quote is the Chinese Senior Colonel Qiao Ling, speaking to the Washington Post: "You Americans established a government with three seperate branches to prevent tyranny but what are you giving to the world?.... ....Now, I'm not saying that everything the US does is wrong, but if you do do something wrong, who is capable of correcting you?"

No no, don't flame me. I'm not for a second proposing that the Chinese should be granted oversight over US foreign policy, nor accepted as a moral athourity where freedom and human rights are concerned. Still, it is an interesting statement, and there is a bit of a quandry there.
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fiveeagles



Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confused
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