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Use of cluster bombs against civilians - do we care?
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dbee

Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject:

Using cluster bombs in a civilian area is highly illegal. The US dropped them in a suburb of Bagdad and there was a MAJOR uproar over it. And they said it was an accident and it won't happen again. Militaries have to be very careful nowadays when using cluster bombs or indeed when planting mines of any sort. Canadian troops in Afghanistan refused to mine certain areas around their defensive zone because it was in contrvention of an international munitions treaty. So to say that everybody does this, is just plain false. As indeed are most of your other argument Joo Rip. I don't see why you have to stand up for everything Israel does. No situation is 100% white or 100% black. Surely in some cases, what Israel does is extreme and can't be justified by what you consider to be attacks against it. Arguing with you Joo is like playing table tennis against a wall.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:14 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Using cluster bombs in a civilian area is highly illegal.

Ok then tell the UN to keep Hizzbollah from firing from civilian areas

Quote:

The US dropped them in a suburb of Bagdad and there was a MAJOR uproar over it.

different situation.

Quote:

And they said it was an accident and it won't happen again. Militaries have to be very careful nowadays when using cluster bombs or indeed when planting mines of any sort. Canadian troops in Afghanistan refused to mine certain areas around their defensive zone because it was in contrvention of an international munitions treaty.

Quote:

So to say that everybody does this, is just plain false. As indeed are most of your other argument Joo Rip.

Oh no it is not.

http://www.cursor.org/stories/abovethelaw.htm

seems the US made a lot of use of Cluster bombs in Afghanistan. I feel it was neccessary.

Anyway Dbee sorry but you do not know what you are talking about.

Quote:

I don't see why you have to stand up for everything Israel does. No situation is 100% white or 100% black. Surely in some cases, what Israel does is extreme and can't be justified by what you consider to be attacks against it.

I don't I think everything Israel does is ok.

I think Israel ought to stop settlements right away.

More or less quit most of the west bank and negotiate with Abu Abbas and give him pretty much what he asks . (within reason. ) Up to now he has shown himself to be reasonable.

But as for Hizzbollah . Hizbollah is a mortal enemy. Period. you mean that Israel ought not hit a group that is out to destroy them with everything.

In fact Israel did not hit Lebanon with everything

The runways were bombed but the Hangers were not destroyed .

While Israel blew up Hizzbollah hate TV they did not bomb Lebanons power grid.

Quote:

Arguing with you Joo is like playing table tennis against a wall. :wink

Why cause everything you send comes back at you with no damage to the wall? Wink

Moldy Rutabaga

Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:31 am Post subject:

Quote:

by Patrick *beep*
September 25, 2006

What kind of a name does this guy have?

Using such bombs is a strategic error, at least, for the bombs remain undetonated and are hardly better than the landmines that are supposed to have been banned everywhere. It is also a moral and P.R. error, for it obviously makes no distinction between combatant and non-combatant.

I've spoken against Muslim actions in these threads lately, but it does not necessarily excuse Israeli actions or American complicity in them either. While Israel should defend itself vigorously, it does not mean it must or should use the same tactics its opponent does if other options are available. Every cluster bomb manufactured means that an opportunity to produce a different type of weapon that doesn't target civilians was not taken.

Ken:>

jinju

Joined: 22 Jan 2006

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:51 am Post subject:

Its justified and jinjufied.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:19 am Post subject:

Quote:

Arguing with you Joo is like playing table tennis against a wall.

Yes, bang on. The only way to better it would be to qualify it as a "brick" wall....

Don't have much time to respond this week but I will say, I too am damn angry at this.......

Especially given how it was publicized at the time, during the way. How Israel was just waiting for this shipment from mother America.

Appauling how America produces these armnaments, sells them, kills many, millions and not a blink.....it is off to Walmart to spend my guidance system saudering money.....Why doesn't anyone speak up about the arms industry in America? Or is it worth the price of a new pickup?

DD

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:26 am Post subject:

ddeubel wrote:

Appauling how America produces these armnaments, sells them, kills many, millions and not a blink

America kills millions? You're sounding more muslim every day.

Even if true..they have a looooooong way to go to catch up on the worlds no. 1 murderers.

Muslims killed 80 million hindus in 500 years

The worst recorded genocide in history

Better take note Big Bird. Islam exceeds christianity by millions upon millions as the worlds worst killers.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:33 am Post subject:

Reading a Big Bird post is like reading a news release from the PLO head office.

Atassi

Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Location: 평택

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:45 am Post subject:

Quote:

Junior, it seems you didn't want to respond to my last post to you. I will respond to this one.

You want this to be a competition between adherents of the world's faiths? How about speaking seriously, without looking to spew your hate.

First of all, it is unfortunate that "Muslim" leaders did those things, but they were obviously not following Islam.

"There is no compulsion in religion." There isn't a verse more clear than this in the Quran. The fact that those rulers did those things, and took slaves, and continued the Indian caste system in some respects shows that they actually did not fully learn about Islam when it came to them. People do bad things, that's no secret.

Also let me correct you. The source you are quoting claims that the Hindu population decreased by 80 million in those how ever many hundreds of years. They did not all "die" as you state. The number of adherents to Hinduism decreased.

Furthermore, there is plenty of scholarly debate about that number.

So two things are certain:

1) the "Muslims" at that time did not follow their faith and did some very bad things, and

2) You Junior still wish to prove that Islam is "evil", but instead you only make a fool of yourself with your manufactured lies

AbbeFaria

Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: Gangnam

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:53 am Post subject:

Atassi wrote:

Quote:

Hahaha! 500 years of Muslims not acting like real Muslims ought to. That's a lot of misbehavin'.

-S-

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:29 am Post subject:

Quote:

Yes, bang on. The only way to better it would be to qualify it as a "brick" wall....

No those bricks are in your head

Quote:

Don't have much time to respond this week but I will say, I too am damn angry at this.......

Well be angry at Hizzbollah for starting the war. Be angry at them for being out to destroy Israel .

Quote:

Especially given how it was publicized at the time, during the way. How Israel was just waiting for this shipment from mother America.

Appauling how America produces these armnaments, sells them, kills many, millions and not a blink.....it is off to Walmart to spend my guidance system saudering money.....Why doesn't anyone speak up about the arms industry in America? Or is it worth the price of a new pickup?

Cause the arms industry helps keep the US safe.

If you don't like it wait till you see a world where those like Hizzbollah get their way.

Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject:

[quote="Atassi"]

Quote:

it is unfortunate that "Muslim" leaders did those things, but they were obviously not following Islam.

I'd say they were being good muslims. As I cited earlier...numerous verses in the Koran exhort muslims to kill infidels wherever they may be found.

Quote:

"There is no compulsion in religion." There isn't a verse more clear than this in the Quran.

Being killed if you disagree is a pretty big compulsion.

Quote:

shows that they actually did not fully learn about Islam when it came to them.

Where exactly in the Koran does mohammed say "Live peacefully alongside people of other religions. Spread the faith only through word of mouth. Do not kill. Have mercy on the weak and poor.".

Nowhere. The Koran is simply page after page of hate.

You know something by its fruit. The fruit of Islam has always been oppression, war, intolerance, violence and slavery.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Well be angry at Hizzbollah for starting the war. Be angry at them for being out to destroy Israel .

Still convinced that Hizbollah started the war? It's well known now, even written about in the US, that this war had been long prepared by Israel with US backing. They were waiting for any excuse to launch it, and the border incursion by Hizbollah came as a welcome opportunity. The Israeli command freely admitted this at the time.

Secondly, I'm presuming you are of the school of: The blameless Israelis withdrew from Lebanon in 2000 and it was Hizbollah that caused all the trouble.

Israel never really withdrew from Lebanon. They regularly (almost daily according the UN) violated the ceasefire, doing so far more frequently than did Hizbollah. The UN constantly wrote to the Israeli government pleading with them to properly observe the ceasefire.

For 6 years they have refused to hand over the maps detailing hundreds of thousands of landmines. Civillians (including young children) continue to be killed or horribly maimed by these bombs. To you perhaps maimed children are quite acceptable. To me it is a shocking, disgraceful and unnecessary situation.

The Israelis still occupy Lebanese land. They expelled the poor Shiite population who lived there. Since 2000 they have regulary fired on (often killing) hapless Lebanese shepards who have had the misfortune to stray across into it.

The Israelis have kept many Lebanese prisoners, many of them civillians or young adolescents, and recently in Israel it came to light (although it was well known anyway) that many of these had been tortured horribly.

Hizbollah had been trying to secure the release of the last of these prisoners, which were still being held (despite the verdict of the Israeli supreme court).

Hizbollah's intent on capturing the 2 Israeli soldiers was well understood, and they immediately offered a prisoner swap. Instead Israel chose to bomb family homes, medical facilities, food factories, schools, hospitals, civillian convoys fleeing the bombing, roads and infrastructure and other civillian targets, killing many many civillians, wounding and maiming for life many many more (with a third estimated to be children). A very proportionate response.

Also, Hizbollah's border violation was the latest flare-up in long-running, though small-scale, hostilities between Israel and Hizbullah since 2000. It was not dissimilar to the regular border scuffles of disputed borders around the world. They rarely make the small print in a newspaper. I doubt Hizbollah ever imagined they'd spark off such a horrific war.

Also, you keep banging on about how Hizbollah exist only to annihilate the Jews. This is patent rubbish. They began as a resistance to the horrible occupation of their land, and they may well have said all sorts of stuff about the Israelis at that time. You would too if they were in your backyard killing and maiming your people. When they'd rid themselves of their occupiers, they turned mostly to domestic matters, empowering the previously disadvantaged poor Shiite population within Lebanon. You talk as if they were plotting to invade Israel. This is patent nonsense. The Israelis were in no danger of being run by the Hizbollah (except perhaps in some peoples most fervent imaginings).

But whatever, if you prefer the 'Israel is never to blame and the Arabs are all out to kill the Jews' line - then stick with that.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

Reading a Big Bird post is like reading a news release from the PLO head office.

That's right. To some people, any thing written that doesn't paint the Israelis as the poor helpless blameless little kittens of the Middle East, desperate to be loved by their cruel and cartoonishly evil Arab neighbours, is clearly a shining example of a PLO propaganda leaflet. I'd have expected a bit better from you Ya-ta Mature Middle-aged Man Who Ought To Have More Going On In His Head. Confused

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

So, why did Hezbollah kidnap the two soldiers?

Even if you say for a prisoner swap its still an act of war. What is not an act of war, however, is drawing up war plans.

But of course you think Israel started this war, you haven't a rational bone in your body.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:57 am Post subject:

DON'T FEED THE TROLL!!! She's not even being clever about it. Blatently trolling and throwing in nothing but inflamatory replies. This has been a public service announcement bought to you courtesy of the Myth.

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