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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Ron Stevens wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
| Ron Stevens wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
| ddeubel wrote: |
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| What you bought is known as a steam toy, so called because instead of forcing water through the grinds at between 8-9 bar (under mechanical force), it instead forces water under steam pressure (at significantly below the necessary pressure for espresso extraction) through the grinds. (I know, the box said it provides 15 bar of pressure, but it's flat-out lying. Besides, espresso extracted at 15 bar would be vile swill at best.) |
well it tastes good, makes better espresso than my old starbucks machine. Of course you can go to the nth degree ....... |
If you're enjoying your coffee, then that's great. However, from a technical standpoint, coffee does not become espresso until it is extracted at 8-9 bar at about 94C. Anything less than that is still coffee, but it is not espresso.
You don't have to go to the nth degree to get decent espresso, but it will cost you more than a couple hundred bucks. That said, I would love to go to the nth degree.... Marzocco GS3... *drools* |
you're being a liitle absurd some of these home espresso machines used with a good grinder and decent fresh roasted beans can produce a good brew better than 90% of whats avail in cafes here |
How am I being absurd? Just because something is better than garbage doesn't mean it is good. It just means it's better than garbage. What these little home espresso machines will produce is an acidic, over-extracted, bitter cup of coffee. There are home machines that produce quality espresso, but they cost $200 new in the States, and much more here.
Unless you're roasting your own coffee, having it shipped in weekly from overseas (and roasted the day it is shipped), or buying from one of the handful of roasters in Korea, you aren't getting fresh coffee.
Maybe you have a steam toy and I've offended you. Sorry about that. But espresso is espresso, and nothing else. Steam toys don't make espresso. I never said the coffee these machines made was garbage--I just said they weren't espresso. |
i was using a saeco machine with a nemox grinder. i've had the saeco for years, it's a solid well made stainless steel unit cost me about $400us and $170 for the grinder which is also an excellent machine
i wasn't offended i just thought it was inaccurate to suggest you needed to spend $1000 plus to get an acceptable coffee at home |
I don't think I suggested you needed $1000 to have acceptable coffee at home. I said it would cost more than a couple hundred bucks, which is inarguably true. A quality burr grinder will run you $130 on the bottom rung of the espresso ladder, and the cheapest machine that doesn't have a crema enhancer, but does have a brass boiler and proper group is something like a Gaggia Espresso, which is around $200, less if used (of which there are plenty). And that really is scraping the bottom.
Realistically speaking, though, yes, it's about a $1000 commitment to have decent espresso at home. A person can buy a cheap grinder for $130, but it will only last a couple years. $300 and up is the entry price for a grinder that will grind finely and consistently enough for espresso, while also having a lifetime of more than a couple years. Machine-wise, $200 is bottom of the barrel, and you really should be looking to spend minimum $400, and that should be on a machine that's made for function, not fashion. In other words, pretty machines generally hide shoddy components. A Rancilio Silvia is a good entry-level machine, and they're nearly $500. By the time you've added accessories, you're looking at close to $1000.
You've got $600 into your setup, and that's nothing to balk at. That's a lot of money for a morning coffee. That's about what I've got here in Korea, too. A La Pavoni Europiccola and a budget, 2 year life span grinder (a La Pavoni PGC clone, $200, but cloned was $130). The grinder limits my espresso, and I really need to be using something like a Mazzer to get the right quality out of my machine. That'll set me back nearly $800, but it will also last me an actual lifetime.
And that really exemplifies the difference in espresso gear. So many people want to get into espresso, but don't want to spend the money. So, they buy some budget gear, and either go too budget-consious and never get good coffee (and consequently wonder what all the fuss is about), or they get decent coffee, get an idea of what they're missing, and wind up spending lots more money. My advice to anyone getting into espresso is to find someone who makes it well. (If they can't tell you when their coffee was roasted, they aren't making espresso well. That's a good test.) Then, if they like what they drink, look into it and buy the best gear you can afford. But don't spend the money until you can afford to do it properly. Otherwise, it's a waste. Quality espresso costs money. It's an expensive habit. That's all there is to it. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Novernae, I roast my own coffee. 'Fresh' coffee peaks after 2 to 4 days, and then it's downhill from there. Have some coffee that was made from beans that are still hot and you'll understand. It's not nearly as good as coffee made from beans that have been sitting on the countrer for some time. They recommend waiting at least 45 minutes after roast so that at least some of the gases have escaped. Whether you wait or not, it doesn't matter. It still beats canned coffee. |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Novernae, I roast my own coffee. 'Fresh' coffee peaks after 2 to 4 days, and then it's downhill from there. Have some coffee that was made from beans that are still hot and you'll understand. It's not nearly as good as coffee made from beans that have been sitting on the countrer for some time. They recommend waiting at least 45 minutes after roast so that at least some of the gases have escaped. Whether you wait or not, it doesn't matter. It still beats canned coffee. |
What do you roast with? I'm using a Gene Cafe this year; last year I used a gas drum roaster (actually, 3 in various configurations). I mentioned to you in another thread that I roasted, but you didn't respond.
I'm not sure who recommends waiting 45 minutes after roasting before using the beans, but unless you're in dire straits, that's not the best idea. Especially for espresso, beans need an absolute minimum of 8 hours, and then the only beans really suited to 8 hour rest times are Harars. Espresso really needs 36 hours, minimum. If you've never tried your beans over the 4 day mark, you really should. I've had some incredible surprises at 6, 7, and once, even 10 days. Flavours are funny, eh? |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Novernae, I roast my own coffee. 'Fresh' coffee peaks after 2 to 4 days, and then it's downhill from there. Have some coffee that was made from beans that are still hot and you'll understand. It's not nearly as good as coffee made from beans that have been sitting on the countrer for some time. They recommend waiting at least 45 minutes after roast so that at least some of the gases have escaped. Whether you wait or not, it doesn't matter. It still beats canned coffee. |
What do you roast with? I'm using a Gene Cafe this year; last year I used a gas drum roaster (actually, 3 in various configurations). I mentioned to you in another thread that I roasted, but you didn't respond.
I'm not sure who recommends waiting 45 minutes after roasting before using the beans, but unless you're in dire straits, that's not the best idea. Especially for espresso, beans need an absolute minimum of 8 hours, and then the only beans really suited to 8 hour rest times are Harars. Espresso really needs 36 hours, minimum. If you've never tried your beans over the 4 day mark, you really should. I've had some incredible surprises at 6, 7, and once, even 10 days. Flavours are funny, eh? |
I've read somewhere that if you've run out of coffee and just roasted a batch, you should wait at least 45 minutes so that the beans are cool before grinding them. I find it's the bare minimum, otherwise you end up with coffee that tastes like grass. You're right, coffee beans are great after 8 hours (I did observe that some coffees are better after 36h, like you pointed out (I've got a supposedly dry process (yes, dry) Harar right now that seems to fall within that description)), but some of them take interesting qualities as they mature for 2 and 4 days...even after 6. Yes, I've had pleasant surprises after 10 days (especially with Central American and African coffees).
I use the Digirosto. It's more than enough for my needs. Makes nice even batches. Plus, being in Korea I don't experience the problems that some people have had with using it in 110V. But, it's noisy as hell.
I try to cut down on the espresso. I'd end up drinking 4 cups before lunch. It's just that good.
Right now I just have a Zassenhaus burr coffee mill. Excellent for filtered coffee, but not always fine or even enough to produce good cups of espresso, which is hard enough to do on my crappy Delonghi. I filter my water, too (we got a water filter and a UV lamp). These days, I use a French press, although it's a pain to clean. (Don't tell anyone, but I've been known to use paper filters, too). |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Novernae, I roast my own coffee. 'Fresh' coffee peaks after 2 to 4 days, and then it's downhill from there. Have some coffee that was made from beans that are still hot and you'll understand. It's not nearly as good as coffee made from beans that have been sitting on the countrer for some time. They recommend waiting at least 45 minutes after roast so that at least some of the gases have escaped. Whether you wait or not, it doesn't matter. It still beats canned coffee. |
What do you roast with? I'm using a Gene Cafe this year; last year I used a gas drum roaster (actually, 3 in various configurations). I mentioned to you in another thread that I roasted, but you didn't respond.
I'm not sure who recommends waiting 45 minutes after roasting before using the beans, but unless you're in dire straits, that's not the best idea. Especially for espresso, beans need an absolute minimum of 8 hours, and then the only beans really suited to 8 hour rest times are Harars. Espresso really needs 36 hours, minimum. If you've never tried your beans over the 4 day mark, you really should. I've had some incredible surprises at 6, 7, and once, even 10 days. Flavours are funny, eh? |
I've read somewhere that if you've run out of coffee and just roasted a batch, you should wait at least 45 minutes so that the beans are cool before grinding them. I find it's the bare minimum, otherwise you end up with coffee that tastes like grass. |
Ideally, your beans are cool well before 45 minutes--they should be cool to the touch within 5 minutes or you start diminishing flavours. But for the hot bean thing, when beans are hot, say over 100C, they break differently. Instead of grinding, they shatter like glass, and it gunks up your grinder.
| Quote: |
| You're right, coffee beans are great after 8 hours (I did observe that some coffees are better after 36h, like you pointed out (I've got a supposedly dry process (yes, dry) Harar right now that seems to fall within that description)), but some of them take interesting qualities as they mature for 2 and 4 days...even after 6. Yes, I've had pleasant surprises after 10 days (especially with Central American and African coffees). |
Aren't most Harars dry processed? Most of the producers, at least the micro producers, dry the beans at the source, and few can afford wet processing facilities. That's a good thing, though--wet processing most African beans would be a tragedy in flavour. Losing all that wildness and crema? No thanks...
| Quote: |
| I use the Digirosto. It's more than enough for my needs. Makes nice even batches. Plus, being in Korea I don't experience the problems that some people have had with using it in 110V. But, it's noisy as hell. |
I've always wondered about those things. They look so big in the pictures, yet they aren't. I take it yours has never caught fire. What are the roast profiles like? What kind of control do you have?
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| Right now I just have a Zassenhaus burr coffee mill. Excellent for filtered coffee, but not always fine or even enough to produce good cups of espresso |
There was a time when a Zass could grind for espresso, but those days seem to be passing. Or, may have already passed. Years ago, they were manufactured well enough to grind fine enough, but today the tolerances just aren't there. Word on the street was that Zassenhaus was having quality issues for the past year, and have been working to rectify the problem. What I do know is that suppliers have been all but cut off from any new stock, a condition that's been happening for about 18 months now. If you're interested, check out this page to see the burrs in a Zass close up. http://uglyroast.atspace.com/grindoff.html
I brew with my Europiccola almost exclusively, but I do like a Swiss Gold filter and a French press from time to time. I have a soft spot for moka pots, too, after living in Cuba for a while. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
Ideally, your beans are cool well before 45 minutes--they should be cool to the touch within 5 minutes or you start diminishing flavours. But for the hot bean thing, when beans are hot, say over 100C, they break differently. Instead of grinding, they shatter like glass, and it gunks up your grinder. |
I know, I've tried it. Not ideal, but still beats most canned coffees.
| Novernae wrote: |
Aren't most Harars dry processed? Most of the producers, at least the micro producers, dry the beans at the source, and few can afford wet processing facilities. That's a good thing, though--wet processing most African beans would be a tragedy in flavour. Losing all that wildness and crema? No thanks...
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Actually, I've read that Harars were wet processed. They've only recently doing dry process.
| Novernae wrote: |
I've always wondered about those things. They look so big in the pictures, yet they aren't. I take it yours has never caught fire. What are the roast profiles like? What kind of control do you have?
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Think jet engine for the amount of noise. It's about the size of a blender, but probably weighs twice as much. Roast is controled by a dial (15 seconds increments). Takes about 8 minutes 15 seconds for a full roast, although I'm going to start roasting smaller beans like Costa Rican for 7 minutes 45 seconds (I want more of the beans qualities to shine through...although at 8:15, you get a bit too much of the roast flavour for these beans). More than 8:30 and you've got a Vienna roast. The machine produces a nice and even roast, even when I blend whatever beans I have left from different batches (I once got a really nice Guatemalan, Colombian, and Tanzanian blend doing this).
| Novernae wrote: |
There was a time when a Zass could grind for espresso, but those days seem to be passing. Or, may have already passed. Years ago, they were manufactured well enough to grind fine enough, but today the tolerances just aren't there. Word on the street was that Zassenhaus was having quality issues for the past year, and have been working to rectify the problem. What I do know is that suppliers have been all but cut off from any new stock, a condition that's been happening for about 18 months now. If you're interested, check out this page to see the burrs in a Zass close up. http://uglyroast.atspace.com/grindoff.html
I brew with my Europiccola almost exclusively, but I do like a Swiss Gold filter and a French press from time to time. I have a soft spot for moka pots, too, after living in Cuba for a while. |
I bought mine about 5 years ago, just before most Koreans discovered real coffee. I guess the online store was getting rid of it's stock. It was a bargain, like 45 000 won (now that ground coffee is the rage, they are sold for two or three times that much).
I checked the pictures. My guess is the guy damaged the burrs by pushing down on the lever or toward the axle as he ground his coffee (if there's a bit too much resistance, I turn counter-clock wise until the burrs are freed up). The guy claims it grinds well enough for espresso...yeah, it probably does...but it's not nearly as fine or even as what you'd get from an electric grinder. |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
There was a time when a Zass could grind for espresso, but those days seem to be passing. Or, may have already passed. Years ago, they were manufactured well enough to grind fine enough, but today the tolerances just aren't there. Word on the street was that Zassenhaus was having quality issues for the past year, and have been working to rectify the problem. What I do know is that suppliers have been all but cut off from any new stock, a condition that's been happening for about 18 months now. If you're interested, check out this page to see the burrs in a Zass close up. http://uglyroast.atspace.com/grindoff.html |
I checked the pictures. My guess is the guy damaged the burrs by pushing down on the lever or toward the axle as he ground his coffee. The guy claims it grinds well enough for espresso...yeah, it probably does...but it's not nearly as fine or even as what you'd get from an electric grinder. |
Actually, there has been extensive discussion of Zasses manufactured lately and how they relate to what you saw on that website (mine, for the record). Many Zass users who have taken theirs apart have noted the same things that you saw in the pictures. Those are supposed to be hardened steel burrs, and even if they were abused (they were not), they should not have worn down so fast. Take a look at a 20 year old Zass some time and do some comparisons.
With careful, attentive grinding, a Zass most certainly can be used to grind for espresso, and will produce a grind finer than any sub-$130 electric burr grinder. I'm not saying they don't have problems, but I am saying, from experience, that they can be used to grind for espresso with acceptable results. As to fineness of the grind, tightening the nut far enough will produce dust. Of course at that point you will be damaging your burrs and heating the coffee, but it can be done. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Captain Kirk, you gotta get yerself one of these to make a serious good cup of coffee, am I right?
Sorry to be the Luddite killjoy skunk at what has evolved into a ≥ W2 million espresso maker garden party (okay, not rilly sorry) but does this acute affluenza extend to all home appliances and other product areas, or is it just the java? I'm curious to see what the rest of some people's kitchens & homes look like. And as I stare over at my humble Braun coffeemaker, all cheap & plasticky, I'm sensing a threat to my self-worth. But I know nothing will come of it. I enjoy the once-, twice-a-week visits to the coffee shop. I get my espresso & cappuccino on the outside. Like civilised people have done for centuries. |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
Captain Kirk, you gotta get yerself one of these to make a serious good cup of coffee, am I right? |
Is that from the GS line, or a Linea? It's got to be a Marzocco; nobody else bothers with such high quality components. Some nice bits in there, that's for sure.
| Quote: |
| Sorry to be the Luddite killjoy skunk at what has evolved into a ≥ W2 million espresso maker garden party (okay, not rilly sorry) but does this acute affluenza extend to all home appliances and other product areas, or is it just the java? I'm curious to see what the rest of some people's kitchens & homes look like. And as I stare over at my humble Braun coffeemaker, all cheap & plasticky, I'm sensing a threat to my self-worth. But I know nothing will come of it. I enjoy the once-, twice-a-week visits to the coffee shop. I get my espresso & cappuccino on the outside. Like civilised people have done for centuries. |
Depends on what you want and how far you take it. Some bread bakers go to the expense of having French-quarried stone ovens built. Cheesemakers will sometimes build a cheese cave in their basement. I won't even get into audiophiles. I'm into coffee. The sky's the limit. |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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It's a Linea. 110v, which is cool. Not that people will be getting these any time soon...it's a prototype. Mark Prince, you lucky b4stard. I'm not sure espresso machines get better than this one. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
There was a time when a Zass could grind for espresso, but those days seem to be passing. Or, may have already passed. Years ago, they were manufactured well enough to grind fine enough, but today the tolerances just aren't there. Word on the street was that Zassenhaus was having quality issues for the past year, and have been working to rectify the problem. What I do know is that suppliers have been all but cut off from any new stock, a condition that's been happening for about 18 months now. If you're interested, check out this page to see the burrs in a Zass close up. http://uglyroast.atspace.com/grindoff.html |
I checked the pictures. My guess is the guy damaged the burrs by pushing down on the lever or toward the axle as he ground his coffee. The guy claims it grinds well enough for espresso...yeah, it probably does...but it's not nearly as fine or even as what you'd get from an electric grinder. |
Actually, there has been extensive discussion of Zasses manufactured lately and how they relate to what you saw on that website (mine, for the record). Many Zass users who have taken theirs apart have noted the same things that you saw in the pictures. Those are supposed to be hardened steel burrs, and even if they were abused (they were not), they should not have worn down so fast. Take a look at a 20 year old Zass some time and do some comparisons.
With careful, attentive grinding, a Zass most certainly can be used to grind for espresso, and will produce a grind finer than any sub-$130 electric burr grinder. I'm not saying they don't have problems, but I am saying, from experience, that they can be used to grind for espresso with acceptable results. As to fineness of the grind, tightening the nut far enough will produce dust. Of course at that point you will be damaging your burrs and heating the coffee, but it can be done. |
Never tried to make dust. I don't torque the nut very tightly when I want a fine grind (like you said, damages the burrs and heats the beans). At the tightest I'll set it, it does give me a relatively fine grind (say, something you'd use with a drip cup), but, again, certainly not as fine or even as what you'd get from an espresso blend like Illy's.
By the way, where do you get your green beans? I get them from Korea n online stores (currently, www.digirosto.com (pretty good prices, beans seem fresh, service in English)). |
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the eye
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:32 am Post subject: |
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Captain,
I saw two models at COSTCO today.
This one for 79,000...
and this one for 120,000....
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captain kirk
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Ok! I'll go check out Costco. Thanks! |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Never tried to make dust. I don't torque the nut very tightly when I want a fine grind (like you said, damages the burrs and heats the beans). At the tightest I'll set it, it does give me a relatively fine grind (say, something you'd use with a drip cup), but, again, certainly not as fine or even as what you'd get from an espresso blend like Illy's. |
Strange. I don't find Illy to be very fine. I've only seen it once, but I've read lots about it. The general consensus is it's too coarse for many machines.
| Quote: |
| By the way, where do you get your green beans? I get them from Korea n online stores (currently, www.digirosto.com (pretty good prices, beans seem fresh, service in English)). |
Sweetmaria's. I have bought beans from Gabeeyang--they have a few good ones from time to time, but they have nothing on Sweetmaria's. Gabeeyang gets some of their better beans through Ishimitsu, an importer out of Japan. You'll sometimes see Ishimitsu on the COE/Q auctions, and you can trace the beans through until they hit Korea. The few times I've tracked them down have been depressing; auction close at $3.50 a pound, and Gabeeyang selling them for 16,000 won/pound (32,000/kilo). The increase in price is staggering, considering the same auction close price through Sweetmaria's would show a $2.00 markup on the beans. Plus, Ishimitsu never bids on the high lots--always middle of the road.
But the real reason I don't buy from Korean sources is because I have no idea who's cupping the coffee they buy. I don't know how they choose to buy the coffees they do. Consider Gabeeyang specifically, who deal in quite a lot of coffee--they don't even know what beans they will be getting until they arrive, which means they aren't choosing the beans they're selling--they're just another middleman who has no real interest in what I drink.
Tom at Sweetmaria's is a different story. I know what he does when he chooses a coffee, and I haven't found anyone who does it better. So I buy from him. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:20 am Post subject: |
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Actually, I've never seen Illy. Illy was just the first brand that popped in my mind. I just wanted to explain that I don't get a grind as fine as the packaged stuff.
I've thought of ordering from Sweetmarias for the very reasons you've mentioned (cupping, quality, etc.). Maybe next time. |
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