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Its ok to kill gays
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Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:44 am Post subject:

Quote:

New Zealand.

I don't know. How about this:

Anti-gay hate crimes, 1990-2001

The revelation, by a court witness, that a Waterview, Auckland man was murdered because he propositioned another man highlights that New Zealand, like many other countries, has a sad record of gay men being beaten up or murdered. While researching such hate crimes in New Zealand, Wellington researcher and gay activist Calum Bennachie compiled a list of homophobic attacks on gay men in recent years. This list may not be comprehensive but clearly indicates the disturbing levels of violence occurring throughout he country.

http://www.gaynz.com/archives/hate_crimes.asp

fiveeagles

Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:50 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

These come close enough and I like them:

"Many of those people involved with Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals--the two things seem to go together." Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," January 21, 1993

"[Homosexuals] want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers." Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," January 18, 1995

So as a Christian, and you did grow up in a Judeo-Christian culture, how do you feel about these statements? Keep in mind that Robertson had an audience of 863,000 when he said these things. Clearly gays want to throw around AIDS-tainted blood and infect other people, especially ministers.

I think it's deplorable and worthy of hate speech. Like the group in America where they have signs that say "God hates F*A*G*S". Personally, I would like to see them throw then in jail, like with this Muslim cleric. Unfortunately, we don't live in a society that can discern where a voice can turn into disruptable violence and so people like these continue to gain a platform in a sensational driven media. Fueling the hatred and anger on both sides.

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=45007&highlight=

Quote:

The most shocking part of this vision was that this horded was not riding on horses, but primarily on Christians! Most of them were well-dressed, respectable, and had the appearance of being refined and educated, but there also seems to be representatives from almost every walk of life. These people professed Christian truths in order to appease their consciences.............

Last edited by fiveeagles on Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:51 am; edited 2 times in total

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:50 am Post subject:

BJWD wrote:

Quote:

The horrible quote you dragged out of the nether regions of the internet are from a Police Authority who has zero religious authority and who nobody thinks is speaking with the authority of god.

A Unitarian website is the nether regions of the internet? Okay. And Dave's is the pipe-smoking, lawn-watering, dog-fetchin'-the-paper middle class suburbs, I suppose?

Quote:

The horrible quote you dragged out of the nether regions of the internet are from a Police Authority who has zero religious authority and who nobody thinks is speaking with the authority of god.

No, he was speaking as the founder of D.A.R.E, an organization which has been funded by the US government and invited into schools. Yeah, total fringe group.

http://tinyurl.com/y6p6h9

Quote:

this police Chief is a lone quack.

Yeah, a lone quack who was getting money from the US taxpayer to make that speech.

Quote:

Lastly, one was said 16 years ago, and the other this week.

My point wasn't that Gates' endorsement of mass murder is as newsworthy in 2006 as the Imam's endorsement is. My point is that when a public servant with a few thousand armed men at his disposal called for mass murder in 1990, it barely made a dent in the public consciousness. So why should we think that a similar speech in 2006 is any more of a cause for alarm?

Last edited by On the other hand on Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:52 am; edited 2 times in total

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:50 am Post subject:

I am certainly not condoning what the guy said or resorting to moral relativism. My point is that BJ has a demonstrably hostile attitude toward Moslems. If you read a sampling of his posts, it becomes clear that the crime is not what is important. What seems important to him is that a Moslem did 'it'. BJ is a bigot: All Moslems are guilty of what any Moslem says or does.

Octavius Hite

Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:57 am Post subject:

Oh, Christ!

daskalos

Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:36 am Post subject:

Octavius Hite wrote:

So let this raving lunatic say whatever he wants because it doesn't change anything.

Well, it doesn't change anything unless you end up as a victim of one of the fanatics he whipped into a violent frenzy. I'm not saying the imam shouldn't be allowed free speech -- I'm saying what he says should loudly decried and refuted from every corner.

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

You must know as well as anyone that gays are a 'newly cool' minority in (some segments of) the West. Name any progressive society you want to, and I think I can come up with a neighborhood where gays are at risk of their life if they openly admit their orientation, and you know it is true. We are not talking about a difference as such between the West and any other part of the world; we are only talking about a matter of degrees.

You know, I've yet to ever get any practical benefit of this trend. And actually, we were newly cool in the 80's. Anyone today jumping on the gays-are-cool bandwagon is about three trends too late.

A more recent trend is otherwise liberal-minded people defending the barbarism of a culture/religion diametrically opposed to everything good the West has managed to bring into the world. Another trend is that calling people who hold barbaric ideas "barbarians" is not nice, it flies too directly in the face of our age's Cardinal Rule -- Thou Shalt Be Nice. People who don't knuckle under to these trends, people who raise their voices to decry barbarism are considered to be worse than the barbarians themselves. People who won't agree that the sky is not blue are the new pariah.

The difference between Pat Robertson's rantings and the imam's is that in Robertson's culture, the laws and the society show his views to be part of the lunatic fringe. The laws of most Islamic countries call for the death or life imprisonment of gays, a total endorsement of what the imam is preaching. The difference in the cultures is that when Matthew Shepard was beaten to death there was a national outcry the effects of which are still felt today. Matthew wouldn't have made the police report in most Muslim nations, let alone the news. Common opinion in Muslim countries would have it that Matthew got what he deserved. That opinion exists in the West, but it is no longer common -- it's rare. Parse that however you'd like, but that's a big f-ing important difference.

fiveeagles wrote:

However, if a Christian says that homosexuality is a sin then throw him into jail or penalize him?

Oh no, not at all. Just point at him and laugh, laugh long and loud, and when you're done, spit in his direction and look at him with such disgust and contempt that he is unable to look you in the eye, because he knows, he knows he serves a false god, that his own base hatred and fear are the fuel that powers his sad life.

***********************
The worst thing that has happened to world politics in living memory is the advent of George W. Bush. Blind hatred of him and and his truly idiotic policies have led some sheepish minds into believing that anything he is against must be okay, or at least not all that bad. So, for the record, just because you understand that George W. Bush is an idiot doesn't mean you aren't one, too.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:44 am Post subject:

Ya-ta Boy wrote:

I am certainly not condoning what the guy said or resorting to moral relativism. My point is that BJ has a demonstrably hostile attitude toward Moslems. If you read a sampling of his posts, it becomes clear that the crime is not what is important. What seems important to him is that a Moslem did 'it'.

BJ is a bigot: All Moslems are guilty of what any Moslem says or does.

Big words from behind a computer screen...I'm so very surprised. 12 years as a hakwon cowboy will do that do you.

I post about a Imam saying gays ought to be killed and you try and toss it aside by using a quote from D.A.R.E. 16 years ago that has nothing to do with 1) gays, 2) Islam or 3) the larger issue of free speech? And you think that this is a real argument? Then, when I hand you your intellectual arse on a sliver platter, you just call me a name and are done with it. No wonder you are a lifer dude.

What, exactly, are you arguing for/against? Me? Are you that pathetic that you get worked up over me?

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:52 am Post subject:

Quote:

I post about a Imam saying gays ought to be killed and you try and toss it aside by using a quote from D.A.R.E. 16 years ago that has nothing to do with 1) gays, 2) Islam or 3) the larger issue of free speech? And you think that this is a real argument? Then, when I hand you your intellectual arse on a sliver platter, you just call me a name and are done with it. No wonder you are a lifer dude.

Umm, I think you're confusing me with YaTa Boy. But why you are you dragging peoples' job choices into this anyway? Such attacks are hardly the sign of someone who's confident in the validity of his own arguments.

re: DARE. The point is simply to put the Imam's remarks in some perspective. Darryl Gates called for the mass execution of tokers, but nobody got overly excited about it and society survived with no tokers being executed. I suspect we will survive similar remarks by this Imam and other idiots like him. That's all I'm saying.

Last edited by On the other hand on Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total

daskalos

Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:52 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

No, he was speaking as the founder of D.A.R.E, an organization which has been funded by the US government and invited into schools. Yeah, total fringe group.

An organization that has been utterly discredited, though it refuses to believe so, whose effect has been shown to be nil, at best, when talking about deterring drug use.

Gates, as I recall, resigned under a cloud after the fallout from the '92 riots. As I recall, he was often and vociferously taken to task about idiotic statements he made. And, when pressed about his comments on casual drug users, he explained it away as "hyperbole," in effect disavowing what he said, owning up to talking out of his ass.

In the contrast, the imam in question confirmed that what he meant was that gays should be killed because the world would be better off.

That is the salient difference between the Gates and the imam, and it's an important one.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:00 am Post subject:

Quote:

Gates, as I recall, resigned under a cloud after the fallout from the '92 riots.

Interesting that he didn't have to resign after calling for the mass execution of drug dealers. And according to the link I posted, DARE continued to get funds after Gates made that speech in 1990.

Quote:

And, when pressed about his comments on casual drug users, he explained it away as "hyperbole,"

Maybe, but I do recall reading somewhere(the NYRB I believe) that, when asked if his own drug-addicted son would qualify for the death penalty, Gates replied that his son was an addict, not a casual user, and so would not be executed under his proposed regime. You have to wonder why he would bother exempting his son from the death penalty if he had never been seriously proposing the death penalty in the first place.

(And yes, the NYRB pointed out the absurdity of saying that casual drug users should be executed while exempting addicts.)

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:02 am Post subject:

Quote:

And actually, we were newly cool in the 80's. Anyone today jumping on the gays-are-cool bandwagon is about three trends too late.

I'm 57. The 80's are 'recent' in my book. Very Happy

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:02 am Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

Umm, I think you're confusing me with YaTa Boy. But why you are you dragging peoples' job choices into this anyway? Such attacks are hardly the sign of someone whose confident in the validity of his own arguments.

Yeah, my mistake. Apologies.

I mention his job because those who live in glass homes.... And the whole calling names from behind a screen thing is just retarded when considering what he likely looks like. I remember what the 40ish "teachers" look like and it is more Al Bundy than Arnold.

And my arguments ARE valid, and quite simple. Saying gays should be killed is wrong. Hard to argue that that isn't valid, I think.

I'm disgusted by this Imam. His words have no place in a modern society (nor do the horrible quotes from Robertson either).

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:05 am Post subject:

Quote:

And my arguments ARE valid, and quite simple. Saying gays should be killed is wrong. Hard to argue that that isn't valid, I think.

Well, yeah. I don't think anyone has said otherwise on this thread.

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:07 am Post subject:

Quote:

12 years as a hakwon cowboy will do that do you.

Ummm...let's be accurate. 32 years in front of a classroom. 14 months in a hakwon.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:14 am Post subject:

The very important thing to remember with this issue is that rhetoric, in this case, mirrors or influences reality.

In England, 2% of the population (the muslims) are responsible for 25% of the crimes against gays. This doesn't excuse, in any way at all, the crimes of the 98%, but gawddamn, that is disproportionate. I think we can stop the pretending and speaking in hypothetical now.

We have to expect the same level of civility from all members of society. Muslims do not have the freedom to incite murder free from criticism.

Quote:

a quarter of the alleged incidents were provoked by Muslims, it said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061018/od_nm/britain_ad_dc

Yata, go to sleep with that on your mind. In this case, it isn't me who is the bigot.

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