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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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 Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| rocklee wrote: |
| Both Microsoft and Nintendo sued Lik-Sang for infringing on copyrighted material by selling mod chips and other development and backup devices for consoles. Nintendo successfully won their case for an undisclosed amount against Lik-Sang for selling devices that could copy Game Boy software. Lik-Sang was sued for legal expenses and preliminary damages (a mere 500,000 euros). All this was back in 2002/2003. |
As I pointed out, the instant case (with Sony) had zip to do with modchips.
Liksang got out of the modchip/backup device business. So, that is irrelevant now.
| rocklee wrote: |
| Lik-Sang did it again in 2005 for trying to sell PSPs in UK before Sony's official release date, violating trademarks and infringing copyrights. Lik-Sang is not supportive of any after sales support because they are an online company. The deal was that consumers in London would get unsupported PSPs from Asia with a different packaging and manuals, and download the software, patches and manuals from their forums at their own risk. An extremely unreliable way of getting your hard-earned toys. |
True, but so what?
Liksang was very clear about all the things you mention. I would guess that most of Liksang's customers were sophisticated enough to realize that as well.
| rocklee wrote: |
| Ok then. Is there any reason why I can't import a LHD Ferrari into Australia even though everybody else drive RHD cars? They're both cars right? |
I don't know whether or not you can. I have seen RHD Japanese cars in Russia, Korea, and the U.S. that must have been imported and licensed. AFAIK, there is no _law_ against importing Japanese-market PSPs into the E.U. IIRC, the legal decision against Liksang did not reference any such law.
| rocklee wrote: |
| Yes life would be so much easier if everything was the same. I wish Korea put english subtitles on all their movies. |
Bad analogy. The better analogy would be, should it be illegal for a consumer in the U.S. to order a non-subtitled Korean movie on DVD from a Korean e-tailer directly? Or should he have to wait for the authorized Region 1, English subtitled DVD of that movie to be released in the U.S. and purchase it then?
Or never purchase it if it is never released in his home market?
| roklee wrote: |
| Sony by the way did not drive Lik-Sang out of business nor have they sued. |
WHAT?
Sony most certainly did sue.
"Sony Computer Entertainment successfully sued Pacific Game Technology (Holding) Limited (one of whose company trading names is Lik Sang.com) for infringing our Intellectual property rights. 'Lik Sang' did not contest this case (ie they did not turn up and therefore incurred no legal costs). We have been awarded substantial costs against Lik Sang which have not been paid," Sony explained."
http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14211
When you are not even clear on the background of this situation, I can see why you were hesitant to explain "the big picture".
Whether they "drove Liksang out of business" is, of course, debatable, but being sued by Sony certainly was not conducive to healthy business operations.
| roklee wrote: |
| Lik-Sang played with fire again and again and this time they lost. They were in demand because they could import yet to be released products to European and American markets (HK gets a lot of Sony stuff before everyone elses because they're so close to Japan). |
The catch is, some of those products never would have been released in Europe and North America.
Why should motivated consumers in those markets not have the chance to purchase them (short of flying to Japan)?
| roklee wrote: |
| And you are? |
Yes.
Last edited by dogbert on Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| By the way, Missile Command Kid, PSP games are not region coded (the UMD movies are, though). Therefore, it makes even less sense for Sony to object to the sales of Japanese market PSP games outside Japan. |
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Missile Command Kid
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
| By the way, Missile Command Kid, PSP games are not region coded (the UMD movies are, though). Therefore, it makes even less sense for Sony to object to the sales of Japanese market PSP games outside Japan. |
WHAT? You're kidding me! I just assumed that Sony region-coded their PSP games like their PS2 games, but if that's the case, why in the world would they even want to restrict where their games are sold? None of Nintendo's portable consoles are region-coded either, so my Canadian GBA SP can run Japanese games that aren't released in the US (like the outstanding "bit Generations" series).
Sony, what in the world are you thinking? |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Missile Command Kid wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
| By the way, Missile Command Kid, PSP games are not region coded (the UMD movies are, though). Therefore, it makes even less sense for Sony to object to the sales of Japanese market PSP games outside Japan. |
WHAT? You're kidding me! I just assumed that Sony region-coded their PSP games like their PS2 games, but if that's the case, why in the world would they even want to restrict where their games are sold? None of Nintendo's portable consoles are region-coded either, so my Canadian GBA SP can run Japanese games that aren't released in the US (like the outstanding "bit Generations" series).
Sony, what in the world are you thinking? |
Exactly. It makes no sense.
Here's a somewhat interesting article from back in 2004:
http://psp.ign.com/articles/561/561098p1.html |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
Sony most certainly did sue.
"Sony Computer Entertainment successfully sued Pacific Game Technology (Holding) Limited (one of whose company trading names is Lik Sang.com) for infringing our Intellectual property rights. 'Lik Sang' did not contest this case (ie they did not turn up and therefore incurred no legal costs). We have been awarded substantial costs against Lik Sang which have not been paid," Sony explained."
http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=14211
When you are not even clear on the background of this situation, I can see why you were hesitant to explain "the big picture".
Whether they "drove Liksang out of business" is, of course, debatable, but being sued by Sony certainly was not conducive to healthy business operations.
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I don't really want to spend too much time internet-fighting but Lik-Sang paid nothing to Sony and drove themselves out of business. Sony issued a warning, taking the matter to court where they tried to sue. Lik-Sang did everything in their best interest to avoid paying damages by not turning up and disappearing from the scene (abandoning their thousands of users on their forum was indeed a class act).
Again, look at the bigger picture and consider all the facts before putting your thoughts on the internet. You said that you will support Nintendo, yet they are the ones who sued Lik-Sang successfully back in 2002/3 and almost closed their businesses down. Personally, I think you just have some beef with Sony.
MCK, among the biggest companies to be hit by piracy, Sony and Microsoft comes to mind. Sony relied on CDs/DVDs that were easier to mass produce legally and illegally. With mod chips, it was far easier to overcome region-locks. That was why people went to Lik-Sang to hack their Nintendo and Sony systems.
Don't think for a minute that Sony isn't getting a hit on software sales. Already their PSP has been hacked to play "homebrew" games downloaded from the internet and loaded onto memory sticks. While I see the benefits of not having to pay for games, the situation has driven Sony to upgrade the PSP firmware constantly in an attempt to foil homebrew. This gets us nowhere, resulting in needless costly development to stop piracy. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not fighting; just putting out the facts. Sony _did_ sue.
Liksang was fighting Sony's suits in Hong Kong _on the very same issue_ and objected to the English court's jurisdiction; this is why it did not appear.
I'll grant your point that Nintendo had sued Liksang before.
But you are talking apples to my oranges: I'm not defending piracy and the Sony suit was not about piracy. I object to Sony trying to prevent the sale by Liksang of Sony products marketed by Sony in one region to customers in another region. Liksang was not selling pirated or counterfeit Sony goods.
Again, I'm not talking about piracy. Why do you bring piracy into this?
BTW, I had an outstanding order with Liksang as of 10/24 and did receive it, so at least in my case, they did not abandon their customer. |
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Missile Command Kid
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| rocklee wrote: |
I don't really want to spend too much time internet-fighting but Lik-Sang paid nothing to Sony and drove themselves out of business. Sony issued a warning, taking the matter to court where they tried to sue. Lik-Sang did everything in their best interest to avoid paying damages by not turning up and disappearing from the scene (abandoning their thousands of users on their forum was indeed a class act).
Again, look at the bigger picture and consider all the facts before putting your thoughts on the internet. You said that you will support Nintendo, yet they are the ones who sued Lik-Sang successfully back in 2002/3 and almost closed their businesses down. |
And they deserved to be sued for facilitating software piracy, don't you think? Lik-Sang was doing nothing other than selling a console.
| rocklee wrote: |
| Personally, I think you just have some beef with Sony. |
After this? Of course I do! As I said earlier, I hadn't bought *any* Sony products from Lik-Sang, but I did order quite a bit of merchandise from them in the past.
| rocklee wrote: |
| MCK, among the biggest companies to be hit by piracy, Sony and Microsoft comes to mind. Sony relied on CDs/DVDs that were easier to mass produce legally and illegally. With mod chips, it was far easier to overcome region-locks. That was why people went to Lik-Sang to hack their Nintendo and Sony systems. |
You're confusing "region locks" and "mod chips." In my opinion, there's nothing ethically wrong for somebody to hack their X360 or PS2 to play games from all over the world. You're still buying games, the company is making money from a sale, and more importantly, no laws have been broken. On the other hand, getting a mod chip that allows backups to be played is definitely taking money out of the hands of the devs. The people who make games are getting less money.
| rocklee wrote: |
| Don't think for a minute that Sony isn't getting a hit on software sales. Already their PSP has been hacked to play "homebrew" games downloaded from the internet and loaded onto memory sticks. |
Yeah, but what does this have to do with users 1) purchasing a console and 2) purchasing games? Pirated ROMs have nothing to do with buying a PSP from Lik-Sang, right? I mean, whether my PSP is from Lik-Sang or Wal-Mart, the firmware is still hackable, right?
| rocklee wrote: |
| While I see the benefits of not having to pay for games, the situation has driven Sony to upgrade the PSP firmware constantly in an attempt to foil homebrew. This gets us nowhere, resulting in needless costly development to stop piracy. |
I'm still really confused on why you're talking about piracy. Sounds like the Chewbacca defense to me! |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Missile Command Kid wrote: |
And they deserved to be sued for facilitating software piracy, don't you think? Lik-Sang was doing nothing other than selling a console.
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LS promoted piracy by allowing hackable consoles to play illegally copied software. In other words, they provided a gateway for plain-Jane to play games without having to pay for them. That was round one. Round two, LS tried to sell early "hackable" PSPs before Sony could and using their trademarks to promote their status.
| Quote: |
[quote="rocklee"]Personally, I think you just have some beef with Sony. |
| Quote: |
After this? Of course I do! As I said earlier, I hadn't bought *any* Sony products from Lik-Sang, but I did order quite a bit of merchandise from them in the past.
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I was referring to Dogbert actually but I can see your point too. Sony isn't popular for being the big company that it is. I hate Apple for the same reasons.
| Quote: |
| rocklee wrote: |
| MCK, among the biggest companies to be hit by piracy, Sony and Microsoft comes to mind. Sony relied on CDs/DVDs that were easier to mass produce legally and illegally. With mod chips, it was far easier to overcome region-locks. That was why people went to Lik-Sang to hack their Nintendo and Sony systems. |
You're confusing "region locks" and "mod chips." In my opinion, there's nothing ethically wrong for somebody to hack their X360 or PS2 to play games from all over the world.
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Mod chips can also make a software/DVD regionless, making them playable on any system. If games could be played on any systems regardless of their region, there would be no stopping piracy since an independent outlet could always make duplicate copies of the same software cheaper than what the parent companies could (shady practices ranges from no packaging, no warranty, DIY support/upgrade etc). Yes we're comparing apples and oranges, the backyard experts versus billion dollar RD divisions. But this is what makes the "homebrew" method so attractive because it is so much cheaper to buy a "copy" than the real thing. That is their only real advantage where cost becomes the only deciding factor regardless of the consequences.
You talk about playing foreign games on your console. There are many Japanese companies that are not in the least interested in exporting their games internationally. This protective mindset may not only come from not only the companies themselves but also from the culture. Some cultures do not want to share everything and I'm afraid that is their right. If you want to play Hunter X Hunter the adventure game, well tough luck, its not even in English either.
| Quote: |
| rocklee wrote: |
| Don't think for a minute that Sony isn't getting a hit on software sales. Already their PSP has been hacked to play "homebrew" games downloaded from the internet and loaded onto memory sticks. |
Yeah, but what does this have to do with users 1) purchasing a console and 2) purchasing games? Pirated ROMs have nothing to do with buying a PSP from Lik-Sang, right?
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Nintendo was taking a hit on software sales; Sony didn't.
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This was what you quoted and it is incorrect.
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I mean, whether my PSP is from Lik-Sang or Wal-Mart, the firmware is still hackable, right?
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The difference is that LS will sell hack-ready PSPs (ie. pre 2.05 firmware or whatever it is ) and will even advice you on how to play homebrew games and sofware whereas Wal-mart will only just sell you the consoles and the games and ask what colour PSP you might prefer.
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| I'm still really confused on why you're talking about piracy. |
Ok then, do you think there is any possible link between LS and piracy? Any at all? |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Mod chips can also make a software/DVD regionless, making them playable on any system. |
Em...I don't know if you're confused or if you've worded this poorly. Mod-chips don't, in fact, do anything at all to disks or to software. They allow the disks or software to be played on a system with a mod-chip.
Now, I think you might be ignoring the fact that a mod-chip actually serves two functions. One is by allowing a gaming system to play copied games. Clearly, that is subject to abuse, though it is not always illegal (in the case of one wishing to backup one's legally purchased games and use the backup in place of the original.)
The second function of a mod-chip is to bypass region encoding. Personally, I don't see any ethical problems with buying a game legally from another country and playing it in a game system that I also bought legally. I can understand why domestic companies don't care for it, as they are potentially losing out on a sale, but the flipside is that by disallowing this practice, foreign companies are losing (again, potential) sales.
| Quote: |
| There are many Japanese companies that are not in the least interested in exporting their games internationally. This protective mindset may not only come from not only the companies themselves but also from the culture. Some cultures do not want to share everything and I'm afraid that is their right. |
This really makes no sense. The companies may not export games because to do so involves little or no profit, but I highly doubt the assertion that they simply don't wish to "share."
As for the rest of the Lik-Sang v. Sony debate, seems like an interesting discussion. |
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Missile Command Kid
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| rocklee wrote: |
| LS promoted piracy by allowing hackable consoles to play illegally copied software. In other words, they provided a gateway for plain-Jane to play games without having to pay for them. That was round one. Round two, LS tried to sell early "hackable" PSPs before Sony could and using their trademarks to promote their status. |
Hackable PSPs? You mean, Lik-Sang was selling older versions of the console? This isn't the same thing as selling hardware specifically designed to facilitate backup games.
| rocklee wrote: |
| Mod chips can also make a software/DVD regionless, making them playable on any system. If games could be played on any systems regardless of their region, there would be no stopping piracy since an independent outlet could always make duplicate copies of the same software cheaper than what the parent companies could (shady practices ranges from no packaging, no warranty, DIY support/upgrade etc). Yes we're comparing apples and oranges, the backyard experts versus billion dollar RD divisions. But this is what makes the "homebrew" method so attractive because it is so much cheaper to buy a "copy" than the real thing. That is their only real advantage where cost becomes the only deciding factor regardless of the consequences. |
There's a difference between a mod chip that allows backups to be played and a mod chip that removes region coding. The former facilitates piracy; the latter does not.
| rocklee wrote: |
| You talk about playing foreign games on your console. There are many Japanese companies that are not in the least interested in exporting their games internationally. This protective mindset may not only come from not only the companies themselves but also from the culture. Some cultures do not want to share everything and I'm afraid that is their right. If you want to play Hunter X Hunter the adventure game, well tough luck, its not even in English either. |
Let me get this straight: you honestly think that if a product is only available in a certain country, it's the company's "right" to not allow people outside the country to buy it? That doesn't make any sense. If I go to Japan and by a copy of "bit Generations: Orbital" for the GBA, you don't think I should be allowed to take it out of Japan? What's the difference between me buying it in Japan or a company like Lik-Sang buying it from Japan and shipping it to me?
I'm not talking about a Japanese company spending a great deal of time on translating the game into English ("localisation"); I'm talking about a game that's imported as-is to a different company. Why don't you think this should be allowed?
| rocklee wrote: |
| This was what you quoted and it is incorrect. |
No idea what you mean. Again, pirated ROMs have nothing to do with buying a PSP from Lik-Sang, right?
| rocklee wrote: |
| The difference is that LS will sell hack-ready PSPs (ie. pre 2.05 firmware or whatever it is ) and will even advice you on how to play homebrew games and sofware whereas Wal-mart will only just sell you the consoles and the games and ask what colour PSP you might prefer. |
Let me get this straight: your problem is that Lik-Sang was selling an older version of a product that can be hacked? Well, there's a major problem with that: Sony was the one responsible for shipping a product that could be hacked in the first place. If a Windows virus is released, most people tend to blame Microsoft for leaving an exploit open and the guy who wrote the virus - not a retailer because they're selling Windows XP without any service packs, and not the end user because they bought it!
There's nothing wrong with a company selling old stock. If Wal-Mart sold pre-2.05 PSPs, would they be in the wrong as much as Lik-Sang, in your opinion?
| rocklee wrote: |
| Ok then, do you think there is any possible link between LS and piracy? Any at all? |
I think there's as much of a link between Sony and piracy as there is between Lik-Sang and piracy. Sony could have simply refused to allow Lik-Sang to sell Sony products, but instead they wanted to punish the company and put them out of business. Funny view from a company whose top executives purchased PSPs *from* Lik-Sang a year and a half ago. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Rocklee, have you seen the judge's ruling in the Sony/Liksang suit? I have.
This is not a case about piracy.
It is not about homebrew either.
It is about selling Japanese market PSPs and games to customers outside Japan. I'm sure you know that Nintendo and Sony both offer collectible PSP, GBA SP, DS, etc. versions that are available for sale only in Japan. Liksang sold these online to customers outside Japan in order to give them a chance to have these. Not to mention the mass of games that are sold only in Japan. Sony, for whatever reason, objected to this, and this is why it filed suit against Liksang.
I'm saying again -- this time around, it had nothing to do with the piracy or homebrew.
Forget about piracy and homebrew for a minute.
Do you think that NA and EU customers should not be able to buy Japanese market (legitimate) PSPs online? |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| rocklee wrote: |
| You talk about playing foreign games on your console. There are many Japanese companies that are not in the least interested in exporting their games internationally. This protective mindset may not only come from not only the companies themselves but also from the culture. Some cultures do not want to share everything and I'm afraid that is their right. If you want to play Hunter X Hunter the adventure game, well tough luck, its not even in English either. |
This is a really bad argument.
1. It is certainly true that many Japanese companies are not interested in exporting their games, which is fine.
It does not follow that people outside Japan should be forbidden from purchasing them, however, say from a Japanese online retailer. I have not heard of any Japanese game company having threatened Liksang for offering their games for sale.
2. I don't think even Korean game manufacturers would have the xenophobic mindset you describe. That is truly laughable to think that there are some Japanese game companies don't want non-Japanese playing their games, because they don't want to "share their culture". Can you even give one example of such a game?
Do you think that if I go to Akihabara, no one will sell me a copy of Mobile Train Simulator Keisei, Metropolitan Asakusa, and Keikyu Lines because I'm not Japanese?? Come on...
And who cares if it's not in English? Some of us whiteys know more than one language. |
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