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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Oddly enough I don't remember Gore being a major figure in the anti-war movement when I was living in the US from 2002-2003. Perhaps he also fell victim to the big, nationalistic mute button? |
No, he was busy (re)inventing the Internet. Using this clod as a voice of reason on any subject is laughable at best. |
Gore: right about the first Gulf War (supported it). Right about the second Iraq War (opposed it). Right on the environment since the 70s. Right on removing Slobodan Milosevic. I'll go with his instincts. All you have is a seven-year old misquote of the guy. I'll probably see you online somewhere in 2015 still yucking it up about Gore and the Internet. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Iraq hasn't been that bad for the US... |
I agree with your reservations and clarifications. Mine was just a general analogy.
Also, history is not yet over. We have expended much on this war, not only monetarily. Let us hope that, when the dust settles, the consequences we will face might continue to be less bad than those that overtook Athens... |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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"Twenty-five hundred years later most agree also with Thucydides' assertions that this 'disturbance' sabotaged much of what Greece could have accomplished. Think of it: for the cost of organizing and supplying the two successive armadas that went to Sicily, in aggregate over 40,000 troops, Athens could have built at least four additional Parthenons. For the outlay of putting 100 triremes to sea for a month, 1000 tragedies could have been staged, three times the number of plays put on by Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides in their entire careers combined."
Victor Davis Hanson: A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Oddly enough I don't remember Gore being a major figure in the anti-war movement when I was living in the US from 2002-2003. Perhaps he also fell victim to the big, nationalistic mute button? |
No, he was busy (re)inventing the Internet. Using this clod as a voice of reason on any subject is laughable at best. |
Gore: right about the first Gulf War (supported it). Right about the second Iraq War (opposed it). Right on the environment since the 70s. Right on removing Slobodan Milosevic. I'll go with his instincts. All you have is a seven-year old misquote of the guy. I'll probably see you online somewhere in 2015 still yucking it up about Gore and the Internet. |
Mith has it right on Gore. He has been a consistent, clear opponent of this disastrous misadventure. He was out in front early, as this quote that I take from today's column by Paul Krugman in the NY Times shows:
"Al Gore, September 2002: 'I am deeply concerned that the course of action that we are presently embarking upon with respect to Iraq has the potential to seriously damage our ability to win the war against terrorism and to weaken our ability to lead the world in this new century.'"
Prescient words. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Iraq hasn't been that bad for the US... |
I agree with your reservations and clarifications. Mine was just a general analogy.
Also, history is not yet over. We have expended much on this war, not only monetarily. Let us hope that, when the dust settles, the consequences we will face might continue to be less bad than those that overtook Athens... |
It's a good analogy, though.
But it speaks to how well the generals have been doing on the ground in Iraq. Sicily was a disaster because of Nicias' religious stubborness. He wouldn't evacuate until the omens were good, and his position. So far the US hasn't lost a battle even if they're losing the campaign.
I have a feeling America will continue to be making its mistakes on the strategic level while the soldiers somehow continue to rise to the occasion. And I feel the greatest blunders are behind us. But I've been wrong before... |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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Perhaps, but the federal government wasn't responsible for that particular mistake.
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I'm well aware of that fact, but many of the leaders of the secession movement were members of Congress or state legislatures. You have to work with me here. I'm referring to crappy decisions made by national leaders. If you insist on absolute parallels in history, then we can delete all of history when it comes to learning from the past. |
Well, how about if we just changed it to 'one of the worst mistakes in US history'? Hecho, es simple.
(loses a little of its rhetorical force, however) |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Oddly enough I don't remember Gore being a major figure in the anti-war movement when I was living in the US from 2002-2003. Perhaps he also fell victim to the big, nationalistic mute button? |
No, he was busy (re)inventing the Internet. Using this clod as a voice of reason on any subject is laughable at best. |
Gore: right about the first Gulf War (supported it). Right about the second Iraq War (opposed it). Right on the environment since the 70s. Right on removing Slobodan Milosevic. I'll go with his instincts. All you have is a seven-year old misquote of the guy. I'll probably see you online somewhere in 2015 still yucking it up about Gore and the Internet. |
I wouldn't go with his instincts every time though.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=51252&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
Perhaps, but the federal government wasn't responsible for that particular mistake.
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I'm well aware of that fact, but many of the leaders of the secession movement were members of Congress or state legislatures. You have to work with me here. I'm referring to crappy decisions made by national leaders. If you insist on absolute parallels in history, then we can delete all of history when it comes to learning from the past. |
Well, how about if we just changed it to 'one of the worst mistakes in US history'? Hecho, es simple.
(loses a little of its rhetorical force, however) |
Worse than putting the Natives on reservations?
Worse than Japanese internment?
Worse than helping the French get out of two wars?
Worse than harboring the Shah?
cbc |
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