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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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 Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Gotta luv this one..not IDF but..colombian
Ok..IDF nice pic
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Gamecock
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: |
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I have to say there is nothing sexier than an armed, aggressive female...
I do want to clarify my position in this highly polarized matter. It is too easy and ridiculous to lay blame on one side or the other. There is clear, documented evidence that both Palestinians and Israelis have acted atrociously at times as the violence has escalated and spiraled out of control.
It is true the Arab nations are all lip-service to the Palestinians and rather than helping the people in the West Bank and Gaza they have turned a blind eye because the desperation of the situation gives them the cause and the rhetoric they need to keep their anti-Israel and anti-U.S. propaganda flowing.
It is true the Israelis were placed in a lose-lose situation from the outset of the founding of their nation and in many ways have done remarkably well in their situation.
I was in Jerusalem when Rabin was assassinated by an extremist Jew, at a critical time when the more moderate voices on each side (a massive majority of Israelis and Palestinians) were breaking through the cycle of violence and working towards real changes. Most of the people on both sides are very good people who would very much like peace and the opportunity to get on with thier lives. It is the extremists like Hamas who incite horrible acts of violence on innocent civilians, as well as Jewish extremists (many of whom hold the reigns to the army) who live in a constant state of paranoia and reciprocate horrible acts of violence on civilians (I have seen both things first-hand- the carnage after a bus bombing as well as that of IDF choppers firing into civilian neighborhoods where children were killed). If an Arab does it, they are a terrorist. If it's an Israeli wearing green, it is "collateral damage."
My view on the involvement of the United States has nothing to do with placing blame per se. I am against the clear, undivided support of my government for Israel in word, financial support, and military support which comes consistently regardless of the actions of Israel.
Israel holds ALL the power over the Palestinians. That is simply a fact. The elected officials within the Palestinian territories only have power until Israel disagrees with them and sends in the IDF. It is a mockery of democracy. I am not absolving the Palestinians of their actions, but until Israel works towards a solution to provide those people in Gaza and the West Bank with basic human rights, or invites someone neutral like the UN to really help resolve things, I don't know why my government continues to support Israel in a way which we support NO OTHER NATION.
It would be fine by me to maintain a friendship and alliance with Israel, promising to come to their aid should another nation try to attack them. But for us to build up their military to the extent we have with the questionable "pre-emptive" military actions Israel so boldly promotes is beyond my comprehension. |
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ariellowen
Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Oh please. How is it that inaction over darfur does not even show on your radar scale? |
I tend to agree. On reading the OP, for some subtle reason a big "anti-semite" siren went off in my head on just the same line of reason.
It could be arbitrary, I have a soft spot in my heart for convicts; when I first clicked on the link to this page, I thought the thread would be about the sorry number of Americans in prison. So I'm an anti-social; um... yes perhaps it isn't arbitrary.
Of course it isn't fair to say that anyone who draws attention to the plight of Palestine is therefore an anti-semite, but of all the suffering in the world to bring attention too, one has to at least ask why some particular case is brought up? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Gamecock wrote: |
I have to say there is nothing sexier than an armed, aggressive female...
I do want to clarify my position in this highly polarized matter. It is too easy and ridiculous to lay blame on one side or the other. There is clear, documented evidence that both Palestinians and Israelis have acted atrociously at times as the violence has escalated and spiraled out of control.
It is true the Arab nations are all lip-service to the Palestinians and rather than helping the people in the West Bank and Gaza they have turned a blind eye because the desperation of the situation gives them the cause and the rhetoric they need to keep their anti-Israel and anti-U.S. propaganda flowing.
It is true the Israelis were placed in a lose-lose situation from the outset of the founding of their nation and in many ways have done remarkably well in their situation.
I was in Jerusalem when Rabin was assassinated by an extremist Jew, at a critical time when the more moderate voices on each side (a massive majority of Israelis and Palestinians) were breaking through the cycle of violence and working towards real changes. Most of the people on both sides are very good people who would very much like peace and the opportunity to get on with thier lives. It is the extremists like Hamas who incite horrible acts of violence on innocent civilians, as well as Jewish extremists (many of whom hold the reigns to the army) who live in a constant state of paranoia and reciprocate horrible acts of violence on civilians (I have seen both things first-hand- the carnage after a bus bombing as well as that of IDF choppers firing into civilian neighborhoods where children were killed). If an Arab does it, they are a terrorist. If it's an Israeli wearing green, it is "collateral damage."
My view on the involvement of the United States has nothing to do with placing blame per se. I am against the clear, undivided support of my government for Israel in word, financial support, and military support which comes consistently regardless of the actions of Israel.
Israel holds ALL the power over the Palestinians. That is simply a fact. The elected officials within the Palestinian territories only have power until Israel disagrees with them and sends in the IDF. It is a mockery of democracy. I am not absolving the Palestinians of their actions, but until Israel works towards a solution to provide those people in Gaza and the West Bank with basic human rights, or invites someone neutral like the UN to really help resolve things, I don't know why my government continues to support Israel in a way which we support NO OTHER NATION.
It would be fine by me to maintain a friendship and alliance with Israel, promising to come to their aid should another nation try to attack them. But for us to build up their military to the extent we have with the questionable "pre-emptive" military actions Israel so boldly promotes is beyond my comprehension. |
this is pretty much how i feel. i think i'll cut and paste this whenever a thread on isreal comes up. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Gamecock wrote: |
I have to say there is nothing sexier than an armed, aggressive female...
I do want to clarify my position in this highly polarized matter. It is too easy and ridiculous to lay blame on one side or the other. There is clear, documented evidence that both Palestinians and Israelis have acted atrociously at times as the violence has escalated and spiraled out of control.
It is true the Arab nations are all lip-service to the Palestinians and rather than helping the people in the West Bank and Gaza they have turned a blind eye because the desperation of the situation gives them the cause and the rhetoric they need to keep their anti-Israel and anti-U.S. propaganda flowing.
It is true the Israelis were placed in a lose-lose situation from the outset of the founding of their nation and in many ways have done remarkably well in their situation.
I was in Jerusalem when Rabin was assassinated by an extremist Jew, at a critical time when the more moderate voices on each side (a massive majority of Israelis and Palestinians) were breaking through the cycle of violence and working towards real changes. Most of the people on both sides are very good people who would very much like peace and the opportunity to get on with thier lives. It is the extremists like Hamas who incite horrible acts of violence on innocent civilians, as well as Jewish extremists (many of whom hold the reigns to the army) who live in a constant state of paranoia and reciprocate horrible acts of violence on civilians (I have seen both things first-hand- the carnage after a bus bombing as well as that of IDF choppers firing into civilian neighborhoods where children were killed). If an Arab does it, they are a terrorist. If it's an Israeli wearing green, it is "collateral damage."
My view on the involvement of the United States has nothing to do with placing blame per se. I am against the clear, undivided support of my government for Israel in word, financial support, and military support which comes consistently regardless of the actions of Israel.
Israel holds ALL the power over the Palestinians. That is simply a fact. The elected officials within the Palestinian territories only have power until Israel disagrees with them and sends in the IDF. It is a mockery of democracy. I am not absolving the Palestinians of their actions, but until Israel works towards a solution to provide those people in Gaza and the West Bank with basic human rights, or invites someone neutral like the UN to really help resolve things, I don't know why my government continues to support Israel in a way which we support NO OTHER NATION.
It would be fine by me to maintain a friendship and alliance with Israel, promising to come to their aid should another nation try to attack them. But for us to build up their military to the extent we have with the questionable "pre-emptive" military actions Israel so boldly promotes is beyond my comprehension. |
this is pretty much how i feel. i think i'll cut and paste this whenever a thread on isreal comes up. |
Yes actually, I also found myself nodding with agreement on most of Gamecock's post.
This in particular:
| Quote: |
| Israel holds ALL the power over the Palestinians. |
Israel does really hold almost all of the cards. Israel does have the power to make a just peace with the Palestinians, and can do so from a position of strength. They have had many chances too, but sadly they've always taken a rejectionist stance, and have been able so in fact because of their position of strength. They constantly reject peace (while loudly lamenting the opposite). This is because it would mean accepting the green line as the final borders of their nation, and no government seems to want to seriously contemplate that. While Israel continues to hunger after fertile land and scarce water resources in the West Bank, there is no chance of a fair resolution. Israel hides behind the excuse "Security Concerns" while all the time continuing to dispossess the Palestinians of the land on which they've lived for many generations. Even during the so called Oslo peace talks they doubled the illegal settlements in the West Bank. Not an act of good faith. The ball is pretty much in Israel's court. With the US continuing to finance and sanction their illegal landgrab, will they ever choose to throw it? |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ariellowen wrote: |
| Junior wrote: |
| Oh please. How is it that inaction over darfur does not even show on your radar scale? |
I tend to agree. On reading the OP, for some subtle reason a big "anti-semite" siren went off in my head on just the same line of reason.
It could be arbitrary, I have a soft spot in my heart for convicts; when I first clicked on the link to this page, I thought the thread would be about the sorry number of Americans in prison. So I'm an anti-social; um... yes perhaps it isn't arbitrary.
Of course it isn't fair to say that anyone who draws attention to the plight of Palestine is therefore an anti-semite, but of all the suffering in the world to bring attention too, one has to at least ask why some particular case is brought up? |
And if the OP had been about Darfar...would a 'big "anti-Arab" siren' have gone off in your head?
I'm sure DD is absolutely appalled about what is going on in Darfar. Let's start a thread on it shall we?
| poster A wrote: |
| Look at the terrible stuff going on in Darfar. It's terrible isn't it? |
| poster B wrote: |
| Yes, it is rather |
.
.
.
* thread dies...*
What would you and Junior like to debate about in a Darfur thread? Whether or not we should intervene? Personally, I wish to hell that we would. But it's not a country of strategic interest to us...so we won't. Anyway, we've mucked up so badly in Iraq that we probably don't dare to get involved in any more quagmires. Start a thread. I'll contribute to it. But I can assure you it will soon die, because few people would disagree that what was happening in Darfur is absolutely horrific, and the only debate would be about how much we should help/intervene.
In one way or another the US and the UK have contributed to and colluded in the problems in the Middle East. I'm not sure how much could be said the same of Darfur. Also, from the perspective of self-interest...the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is likely to come back one of these days and bite us on the bum. The Darfur conflict probably wont affect us much at all.
Lastly, I think it's shameful that your 'big "anti-semite" siren' goes off at the drop of a hat. If you followed DD's posts for any length of time you would understand that he is motivated by compassion for the Palestinians, not by wild seething rabid hatred of the Israelis. So shame on you. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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All I can say about this whole debate is once again that it isn't about "blame". It is about innocent people dying, suffering.
| Quote: |
| Death continues because of people like me? I think death continues because of people like you. People that turn a blind eye to violence and allow violence to go on unchecked are the reason that violence continues. |
"turning away from violence" someone says????? It is not turning away from violence but rejecting violence. BIG difference. And never have I said it was right to use violent ends to achieve political objectives. Others always infer it but just to argue against one side, does not mean you are "for" the other sides atrocious behaviour. But calling for horrific retaliation, calling for more arms and missles is exactly what allows violence to continue. And it all comes from people not seeing what others suffer, not aware and who are able to see things "expediently" (like Bush today, saying that yes, 100,000s have suffered in Iraq but to pull out now would just make things worse.......good example.).
If the litmus test of a democracy is how it supports and treats its minorities, the litmus test of politics/people is how they try to help those in need. All politics basically comes down to this question -- what the powerful can do to help the powerless (and not discounting Havel's book on the topic, the Power of the Powerless...). This situation goes for Israel which unfortunately (and Junior's pictures show this clearly) has become schizophrenically militarized, a teen playing video games....deadly games.
Gamecock's post echoes what I've said many times. Israel should take the lead, it is for strength to show the way out the door and into the valley......
As for charges that I am anti-semite, well only if indeed I hate myself. Being of German Jewish stock and branded by name and history by Christian anti-semites themselves. But I am not of "anything" but what I believe. That is the country and hill and dale I travel. Not blindly taking sides but reacting to those who would need help and speaking for those without voice.....so many others dancing to the din of their armnaments......
Speaking of that. I think this question is really crucial in regards to Israel. The military hardware in her hands. Also to many places in the world. Iraq -- most of the deaths there, at the hands of U.S. manufactured weaponry. Even Kalashnikofs, now made through American companies in their new nests of Nato. In fact, today's Herald Tribune has a U.S. company's gun in the hands of a Somali Islamist. How ironic?
I don't support military incursions anywhere! I think the better course of action is still peace keeper, people who can help -- even the Peace Corps, that long neglected branch of decency. Guns beget guns. Unless they are at your door.
DD
PS. Just for good measure , here are a few statements which reached record levels on my $hit detector. All totally off base and the basis of hate.
| Quote: |
| . The stories don't matter. The ideas don't matter. Only MY ideas matter and are correct! |
and
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| The palestinian gov't won't feed the children with the money. It will be diverted to Hamas for arms. Hamas does not love their children. |
and
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the palestinian govt if they really cared for the future of their people, would have concentrated on wise governance, making peace with their neighbours, and stop spouting off about war and buying weaponry |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Here is another related article about the plight of residents of Gaza. Don't fret Ariellowen, the writer is not an anti-semite. He is Jewish, a Jewish Israeli journalist who regularly feels compelled by his conscience to write about the dreadful plight of the Palestinians.
Elbow to Elbow, Like Cattle
The Cruel Line into Gaza
By GIDEON LEVY
http://www.counterpunch.org/levy12112006.html
| Quote: |
El-Haddad, a young journalist who splits her time between Gaza and the U.S., can afford to pay $9 per night. But most of the unfortunate people around her, including cancer patients, infants, the elderly and students, the injured and disabled, cannot allow themselves such luxuries. Some of them rent a tent for 1.5 Egyptian pounds per night. The rest simply sleep out in the open, in the chill of night, or crowd together in local mosques.
These people want to return home. Israel does not even allow them this. They are human beings with families, plans and commitments, longings and dignity, but who cares.
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| Quote: |
There is almost no mention of this cruel abuse in the newspapers: After all, the occupation in Gaza has ended.
Without anyone paying attention, the Gaza Strip has become the most closed-off strip of land in the world--after North Korea. But while North Korea is globally known to be a closed and isolated country, how many people know that the same description applies to a place just an hour away from hedonist Tel Aviv?
The Erez border crossing is desolate--Palestinians are not allowed to cross there, foreigners are rarely allowed to cross and Israeli journalists have also been prohibited from crossing during the past two weeks. Only wheelchairs are occasionally pushed through the long "sleeves" of the security check, leading a deadly ill person or someone seriously injured by the IDF to or from treatment in Israel. The large terminal Israel built, a concrete and glass monster that looks like a splendid shopping mall, juts up like a particularly tasteless joke, a mockery. At the Karni crossing, the only supply channel for 1.5 million people, only 12 trucks per day have passed since January. According to the "crossings accord" signed a year ago, Israel committed to allowing 400 trucks a day to pass through. The excuse: security, as usual.
But there has not been any security incident at Karni since April. The ramifications: Not only severe poverty, but also $30 million in damage to Gaza's agriculture, which is almost the only remaining source of livelihood in the Strip. According to the UN report published last week, Israel has violated all of the articles of the agreement. There is no passage to Israel, no passage to the West Bank and even none to Egypt, the last outlet.
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Tough choice....
or
 [/quote] |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
Tough choice....
or
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[/quote]
How about this one?
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:31 am Post subject: |
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Yes - a little red X is always sexy as hell, Junior.
So - you support Israel because the birds are fitter? Well, it's as good a reason as any, I guess. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Junior,
Just to keep up your interest, maybe something might rub off..... The lady I mentioned in my previous post.
Hopefully you find her appealing or atleast her hardware....made in America by all appearances, either Las Vegas or the subsidiary in Bulgaria, Arsenal Inc.... But you can also get them in Israel and most certainly for less than the 700 buck going price, in Iraq.
DD |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
Yes - a little red X is always sexy as hell, Junior.
. |
oops...Ok here
ddeubel:
| Quote: |
| The military hardware in her hands. Also to many places in the world. Iraq -- most of the deaths there, at the hands of U.S. manufactured weaponry. Even Kalashnikofs, now made through American companies in their new nests of Nato. In fact, today's Herald Tribune has a U.S. company's gun in the hands of a Somali Islamist. How ironic? |
link?
As far as i can tell, the US is not a manufacturer of the AK47.
Here is its history in the U.S:
In the United States
Private ownership of fully-automatic AK-47 rifles is tightly regulated by the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934. The Gun Control Act of 1968 ceased importing of foreign-manufactured fully-automatic firearms for civilian sales and possession, effectively halting further importation of civilian accessible AK-47 rifles. In 1986, an amendment to the Firearm Owners Protection Act stopped all future domestic manufacture of fully-automatic weapons for civilian use.
However, machine guns manufactured domestically prior to 1986 and imported prior to 1968 may be transferred between civilians in accordance with federal and state law. Several Soviet and Chinese rifles made it into the U.S. during the mid-1960s, when returning Vietnam veterans brought them home after capture from enemy troops. Many of these were properly registered during the 1968 NFA amnesty.
Nevertheless, several states have laws on their books outlawing private possession of fully-automatic firearms even with NFA approval. Certain semi-automatic AK-47 models were banned by the now-expired Assault Weapons Ban of 1994�2004."
As you see, the US is not listed as a manufacturer of the kalashnikov. Why would the US make an inferior rifle??? They have the M16 or the 7.62...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47 |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| "turning away from violence" someone says????? It is not turning away from violence but rejecting violence. |
Good God, man. Talk about misquotes... I said
| Pligganease wrote: |
| People that turn a blind eye to violence and allow violence to go on unchecked are the reason that violence continues. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Talk about misquotes... |
You are concerned about mere "misquotes" when this poster once invented and then moralistically lectured on the "fact" that the United States govt no longer called Hezbollah "terroristic?"
You are concerned about "misquotes" when, above, he sees an AK, and incredibly (not to mention without having evaluated its serial number, bill of laden, or port of entry, etc.) jumps to the conclusion "made in America by all appearances?" An AK?
And, by the way, Junior: AKs are actually perfect guerrilla weapons. I would not use the word "inferior" at all. An AK will keep firing when it is dirty and even muddy. An M16 will not.
In any case, to restate and clarify what we already know all too well: Ddeubel is on an antiAmericanist propaganda mission here, and, chronically, whenever his emotions get the better of him, he invents facts out of whole cloth and he mischaracterizes and indeed reshapes other posters' views into convenient strawmen.
One classic Ddeubelism was when I asserted that even Moscow played a role in the chain of events that led to the Shah's countercoup/deposing of Mossadeq in 1953. Ddeubel came back with something like "I disagree that Russia had a lot to do with the coup."
This is the guy who regularly lectures us on "humanity" but who once fantasized about burying Pinochet and Kissinger alive...
| Ddeubel wrote: |
I think the only better thing for him than death would have been being buried alive....then dug up every once in a while and reburied........
Kissinger along side him, for company. |
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