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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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 Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:04 am Post subject: |
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spliff wrote:
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| Many Jews died as a result of sickness while in captivity, many others survived...can't really claim they were purposely killed. For example, if 10 of us teachers were thrown in a N-Korean prison camp and 5 died from a disease and the remainder survived and were liberated, you wouldn't say that the Nappa-K's killed them, would you? |
so if we put you in a cage with leppers and denied you food and water for a month, and you just happened to die perchance, then it was quite an accident. 
nice little anti semite/racist trap you've posted up otis. Now that they're all lined up, can we open fire? |
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Wrench
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| Otis aren't you not in Korea? I thought I You were back in the states if so why don't you post useless shit about desimating jewish people on an american board? |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Can folks PLEASE stop misinterpreting what people are saying? Otis hasn't said that, Wrench. Otis made a totally unambiguously pro-Israeli OP.
Anyway, given that the Holocaust is believed to be exaggerated, and the figure I assume believed to be less than 6 million, what is the believed figure and what is this based on? Sources anyone? You can't just say the Holocaust was exaggerated and offer *beep* all evidence. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
| the figure I assume believed to be less than 6 million, what is the believed figure and what is this based on?. |
5m or 6M, still a massive genocide on a particular race. the zenith perhaps, of a persecution that has been ongoing for millenia.
Is it any wonder jews have come to protect their land so fiercely? |
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Gamecock
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: |
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Otis,
I thought you'd be dead by now...Damn |
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Muramasa blade
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
Can folks PLEASE stop misinterpreting what people are saying? Otis hasn't said that, Wrench. Otis made a totally unambiguously pro-Israeli OP.
Anyway, given that the Holocaust is believed to be exaggerated, and the figure I assume believed to be less than 6 million, what is the believed figure and what is this based on? Sources anyone? You can't just say the Holocaust was exaggerated and offer *beep* all evidence. |
Sorry if this post is a little incoherent....a little too much red wine. In any event, I can't speak for Spliff, but numbers have nothing to do with my opinion of why the Holocaust was exaggerated.
I'm not sure what the numbers are, and I doubt even the experts know for certain. If the number is six million that's fine, if it's five or four million, that's fine too. In a way, the numbers game is ridiculous, is there a certain magic number you need to hit. Even though the number may not be certain, that's still a whole lot of people dying.
What I object to is the fact that the Holocaust is being made out to be a big event. I'm not Jewish, so why should I care about the Holocaust? I guess that would be because I'm human. That would be the same reason, I should care about the conditions of the Rwandans, Cambodians, Bosnians, etc.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe the Holocaust has been overemphasized. Jewish people were not and are not the only people that suffered. During the Holocaust, there were numerous gypsies, Serbians, Polish, etc. died. As stated previously, many people have been the subject of attrocities. Why is it that these people are not focused on as much? In the end, I fear that the idea of the Holocaust is being over used, and that can demean it's value.
There's also the possibility that the Holocaust can be used, and abused, by people who want to manipulate nationalistic sentiments. One need look no further than China, and South Korea, with respect to Japan to see how this might be the case.
Finally, I'm curious as to the benefit of constantly bringing up the Holocaust. What does it motivate the average person to do? Does it make them kinder and more tolerant towards Jewish people? I'm really curious. Yes, it can be argued that it acts as a deterrent to racism and bias. On the other hand, it could be argued that WWI and WWII should have acted as deterrents to any further war in the world.
I'm just tired of anti-semitism, semitism or any form of nationalistic idiocy. People who are nationalistic, racist or whatever all deserve to be sterilized. In the end, this a long post, which probably no one will read, but I would be genuinely interested in hearing more about this topic. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| Muramasa blade wrote: |
| The British and Americans, didn't know what kind of headache they were getting themselves into, when they set up the state of Israel. |
The Americans set up Israel? Washington has backed Israel for some time, no doubt.
But before the United States did, Soviet Russia did.
And before Soviet Russia backed Israel, the British, waning hegemons at the time, with League-of-Nations and then United-Nations backing, created Palestine and Israel via several "declarations" and "mandates," none of which settled much in the historically turbulent Middle East -- starting after the First World War, when the Ottomans collapsed and left a vacuum in their wake. This chronology is important to keep straight.
The question whether the Holocaust occurred is too politically-charged to allow for reasonable debate in any case. The Holocaust occurred, by the way. Those who raise the question or merely wish "to deemphasize" this unique and terrible historical event where a developed, modern Western nation-state systematically planned, organized, and then employed the full range of its resources and its people to murder vast numbers of Jews (and others) are also those who would deny Israel the right to exist. Those who nod their heads "yes" are those who hate not only Israel, but the United States as well.
The correlation is undeniable. The only ones I have ever seen take stands, to one degree or another, against the Holocaust, are neoNazis and their "intellectuals," Tehran, and all of you rowdy, antiEstablishmentarians on this board, you far-leftist, righteous EFL instructors who feel you are far above all earthly concerns and therefore know better than nation-states and professional historians, and anybody else on anything else for that matter. Let us keep that in perspective.
Finally, some of you do not like the six million figure? Go figure. Some of you think evolution is a lie, Neil Armstrong's landing on the Moon is a lie, and that 9/11, too, is a lie. Indeed, anything you do not like you call a lie. That you might personally pick a new number right out of thin air to better suit the-world-according-to-you is hardly surprising, then.
I remember sitting on a train once, reading a book on the Aztecs -- The Hummingbird and the Hawk. Guy next to me insisted on questioning me about the book and then talking about pre-Contact Latin American history. At first I was pretty happy to talk about pre-Contact history with someone. At first. He soon told me it was all a lie. He looked up into the air for a moment and then seemed to pick a number out of his hat: "I think the world is no more than three thousand years old. That is what the Bible leads me to believe."
Well, I said, we know that the fossil record indicates otherwise.
The fossil record has been fabricated, he told me. The dinosaurs, too. Even if there are fossils, "science's" dating methods are all wrong. He dismissed all of it with a simple wave of the hand. By the way, this person was an EFL instructor and this conversation took place in South Korea.
I think it just goes on and on with you people, then. This is a lie. That is a lie. We must reinvent the wheel anytime we discuss anything. I wish you the best of luck in this bitter, cynical, politicized, and polarized, either/or world or truths and lies you have constructed for yourselves... |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Muramasa blade wrote: |
Attempted genocide, and attrocities against humanity, have happened and will continue to happen. Most people are content to focus on the Holocaust, because it happened a long time ago, and they don't really have to do anything. After all, it's not likely, that the Nazis are going to make a comeback is it. |
We would agree genocide is not a good thing and should be avoided. As we champion the James Bond of our generation, our culture champions the genocide that it was complicit in: an advanced Christian nation that gave the world Bach and Beethoven descended into genocide in the space of a decade. It's a good reminder to our culture that no one, including Canadians and Americans, can rely on our ostensible cultural superiority to keep us all from engaging in genocide.
I have no problem with Jews and Germans reminding and remembering their holocaust. I have no problem with Armenians, North American Indians, Cambodians, et al remembering and reminding of their holocaust. Sorry, our holocaust has the benefit of bigger media. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| ...our culture champions the genocide that it was complicit in: an advanced Christian nation that gave the world Bach and Beethoven descended into genocide in the space of a decade. It's a good reminder to our culture that no one, including Canadians and Americans, can rely on our ostensible cultural superiority to keep us all from engaging in genocide. |
Nicely summarized.
It was not in the context of a chaotic, Third-World, civil war between warring ethnic factions, either. The German state, backed by the people (if Goldhagen's case persuades you), consciously perpetrated this. They calmly and systematically mobilized an advanced, industrial, Western state's full resources to do it.
That is why the Holocaust is and should continue to be such a big deal to us.
Remember this, by the way...?
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UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- The U.N. Security Council on Friday condemned remarks by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denying the Holocaust and suggesting Israel should be moved to Europe.
A statement issued by the 15-member Security Council said, "The members of the Security Council reaffirm the rights and obligations of the state of Israel as a full and long-standing member of the United Nations, and reaffirm that, under the United Nations Charter, all members have undertaken to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state."
On Thursday, a spokesman for U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Annan was "shocked" to see the remarks attributed to Ahmadinejad.
Annan urged U.N. member nations "to combat such denial, and to educate their populations about the well-established historical facts of the Holocaust, in which one-third of the Jewish people were murdered, along with countless members of other minorities."
The secretary-general had previously criticized Ahmadinejad when he said Israel should be "wiped off the map."
Just last month, the U.N. General Assembly passed a resolution rejecting "any denial of the Holocaust as a historical event, either in full or in part."
Mohammad Mirtajedini, a member of Iran's Parliament, said Saturday Ahmadinejad's remarks were not controversial. As far as exaggerated suffering on the part of Jews during the Holocaust, Mirtajedini said European social scientists have made similar suggestions.
He said he does not believe the remarks will damage negotiations on Iran's nuclear program because it is unrelated, adding the nuclear issue is a controversy created by Israel and the United States. |
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/10/iran.israel/ |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Good heavens, Gopher, what a rant. Let's just stick to the issue and not start banging on about conspiracy theorists.
There are two issues going on here. One issue is (a) "was, is, the Holocaust exaggerated? That is, is it overly-centralized? Is its significance over-emphasized?"
Any answer to that is completely subjective. No objective evidence can be offered in favour of the view that it is given too much importance or the view that it's not.
The other issue is far more important in my opinion and what I wanna know....(b) Is the 6m fig an exaggeration? Either the fig is correct, approx, or it's not correct. And if it's not correct, it's either slightly incorrect or significantly incorrect.
To be honest, if the fig is actually 50% of 6 million, it's still a grotesque period in modern history isn't it? But even so, if the figure is distorted, deliberately or negligently, then this is a problem and there's no reason why we shouldn't discuss this, even though it may have unpleasant implications for Israel and Jews, a conspiracy theory no serious student of the matter is comfortable even considering.
Issue (a) has no objective evidence available and in any case has been satisfactorily explained by Grimalkin and Mindmetoo (it's so central because it took place in Western Europe and, since 10 million Jews now live in America and a Jewish state is controversial in the modern era, the consciousness of the Holocaust remains). Issue (b) needs sources and discussion and damn good evidence to overthrow the prevailing view that 6 million Jews were exterminated by Nazi Germany. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Muramasa blade wrote: |
| 1) There's no point in crying over spilt milk. The British and Americans, didn't know what kind of headache they were getting themselves into, when they set up the state of Israel. . |
Only they didn't. Israel was established by U.N. mandate. |
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Muramasa blade
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
Good heavens, Gopher, what a rant. Let's just stick to the issue and not start banging on about conspiracy theorists.
There are two issues going on here. One issue is (a) "was, is, the Holocaust exaggerated? That is, is it overly-centralized? Is its significance over-emphasized?"
Any answer to that is completely subjective. No objective evidence can be offered in favour of the view that it is given too much importance or the view that it's not.
The other issue is far more important in my opinion and what I wanna know....(b) Is the 6m fig an exaggeration? Either the fig is correct, approx, or it's not correct. And if it's not correct, it's either slightly incorrect or significantly incorrect.
To be honest, if the fig is actually 50% of 6 million, it's still a grotesque period in modern history isn't it? But even so, if the figure is distorted, deliberately or negligently, then this is a problem and there's no reason why we shouldn't discuss this, even though it may have unpleasant implications for Israel and Jews, a conspiracy theory no serious student of the matter is comfortable even considering.
Issue (a) has no objective evidence available and in any case has been satisfactorily explained by Grimalkin and Mindmetoo (it's so central because it took place in Western Europe and, since 10 million Jews now live in America and a Jewish state is controversial in the modern era, the consciousness of the Holocaust remains). Issue (b) needs sources and discussion and damn good evidence to overthrow the prevailing view that 6 million Jews were exterminated by Nazi Germany. |
I agree with you about issue a. It would be difficult to offer objective evidence. Grimalkin and Mindmetoo have offered good explanations, albeit familiar ones. I just find what history, and the news continue to focus on, to be curious. Of course, the relvance of this issue, is dependant in part, on whether humans can learn from history.
As for issue b, I had not quite thought of it in that way. Yes, it would be interesting to discuss this, and to find conclusive evidence one way or the other. Unfortunately, I believe you'll never find concrete evidence, one way or the other. Bodies were incinerated, records were lost, families were seperated, the Germans were trying to cover up their atrocities, etc. |
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Muramasa blade
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Muramasa blade wrote: |
| 1) There's no point in crying over spilt milk. The British and Americans, didn't know what kind of headache they were getting themselves into, when they set up the state of Israel. . |
Only they didn't. Israel was established by U.N. mandate. |
The U.N. and it's predecessor, the League of Nations, was not and is not a monolithic entity. Based on that alone, the U.S. and Britain would have had a part in establishing Israel as a nation.
In addendum, the U.S. and Britain are among the more powerful members of the U.N. It is unlikely that the U.N. would have been able to act without their support, or at least their approval. The U.S. and Britain, had political and ideological, reasons for supporting the creation of Israel.
As has already been mentioned, the United States has, and continues to support Israel financially and militarily. Without the support of the U.S., Israel would have been unable to stand up to the forces allied against it.
Many countries created, at the end of WWI, failed to materialize because no one would support them. |
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jellyteecha
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Deary deary me |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I've come accross the estimation 11 - 14 million from time to time. But that includes other 'undesirables' like gypies, Poles, political dissidents and gays. |
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