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jlb
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
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 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
Or even better, change your own actions rather than just trying to throw money at the problem. |
What do you mean by this? Changing our own actions...how? |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| jlb wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
Or even better, change your own actions rather than just trying to throw money at the problem. |
What do you mean by this? Changing our own actions...how? |
How? Be aware of the effect your purchasing power has on the world and modify it to do the least harm and the most good. Get involved in politics to change harmful policies. Work to spread knowledge and information about specific causes you are concerned about. Volunteer at a soup kitchen or volunteer to help educate people. Start an organisation to create sustainable jobs and investments. Start an organisation to challenge people to help. 
There's no sacrifice to opening your pocket-book and throwing money at a problem that can't be solved without major change. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't donate money, but we just shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that will solve the problems of poverty (and money definitely shouldn't be donated to an organisation without extensive research into the practices and successes of said organisation. If you're going to donate, it might as well go to the right place).
I actually think this type of challenge is a good idea (in a lot of ways, it IS the 'action' I'm talking about, the heart is definitely in it), but I think people should be encouraged to actually DO more rather than just GIVE more. I've worked with, and studied many forms of development, and the guilt-driven sponsor programs that require no sacrifice on the part of the donors do little good (and often do harm) to those you are trying to help, and give the rich person (us) the feeling that we are doing 'our part,' so we can sleep at night in our nice comfy beds and not challenge ourselves to do more.
What is boils down to is giving people an excuse NOT to do more. It's like the recycling phenomenon that makes people think it's ok to buy mountains of plastic bottles because, "oh, I recycle," when really they would make much more of a change by just simply not buying things they really don't need anyway. (Reduce/Reuse/Recycle, somehow the first two got lost along the way).
Think about what actually causes the inequalities and work to change those (corruption, bad labour laws, non-living wages, environmental changes, and especially over-consumption in the developed world). |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
A friend of mine makes decisions by asking himself one thing, and it made me think long and hard:
"If everyone acted the way I did, would the world be a better place?" |
You really had never heard this before your friend said it to you? |
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jlb
Joined: 18 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
| jlb wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
Or even better, change your own actions rather than just trying to throw money at the problem. |
What do you mean by this? Changing our own actions...how? |
How? Be aware of the effect your purchasing power has on the world and modify it to do the least harm and the most good. Get involved in politics to change harmful policies. Work to spread knowledge and information about specific causes you are concerned about. Volunteer at a soup kitchen or volunteer to help educate people. Start an organisation to create sustainable jobs and investments. Start an organisation to challenge people to help.
There's no sacrifice to opening your pocket-book and throwing money at a problem that can't be solved without major change. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't donate money, but we just shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that will solve the problems of poverty (and money definitely shouldn't be donated to an organisation without extensive research into the practices and successes of said organisation. If you're going to donate, it might as well go to the right place).
I actually think this type of challenge is a good idea (in a lot of ways, it IS the 'action' I'm talking about, the heart is definitely in it), but I think people should be encouraged to actually DO more rather than just GIVE more. I've worked with, and studied many forms of development, and the guilt-driven sponsor programs that require no sacrifice on the part of the donors do little good (and often do harm) to those you are trying to help, and give the rich person (us) the feeling that we are doing 'our part,' so we can sleep at night in our nice comfy beds and not challenge ourselves to do more.
What is boils down to is giving people an excuse NOT to do more. It's like the recycling phenomenon that makes people think it's ok to buy mountains of plastic bottles because, "oh, I recycle," when really they would make much more of a change by just simply not buying things they really don't need anyway. (Reduce/Reuse/Recycle, somehow the first two got lost along the way).
Think about what actually causes the inequalities and work to change those (corruption, bad labour laws, non-living wages, environmental changes, and especially over-consumption in the developed world). |
I agree with everything you just said. However, for most people, giving some money is a good first step to at least get people thinking about the issues. A lot of my friends and family aren't really at the place where they can work for structural change or even realize what the issues are. By doing this challenge, I am hoping that people will actually start thinking about the rest of the world outside their comfy first world existence. Perhaps for one or two people, it may lead to more down the road. I have no illusion that donating $100 of my money each month is really going to do a lot...but by sponsoring a child or two at least I'm making a difference in a couple kids lives. It's better than nothing. |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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novernae I think you're not giving enough thought to the fact that all people are not the same. I am not a leader I am a follower. While that might not seem like a good thing to you try imagine a world where everyone was a leader and no one was a follower.
It's true that I am not very good at researching where my money goes and I do not even know where to begin such research but maybe if I were to spend all my money on researching I would just be wasting money that could be effective in providing help to poor people.
And I understand what you are saying about cheque-book charity. It doesn't require a great sacrifice on the part of people who give, but then again that is exactly my point...give what you can afford you won't be sacrificing much.
Nor am I suggesting that people have to limit themselves to this. When I had spare time to give I volunteered for work with old folks homes, homes for people who were mentally handicapped and people who were physically disabled. It's also true when for reasons that might have been completely selfish I didn't have time to spare I didn't do this kind of work. Whether I was doing this kind of work out of selfish or unselfish reasons didn't in itself make the time I contributed less valuable. altho' in some people's eyes it says a lot about whether I am a good person or not. Fortunately for me I don't believe in dividing people into 'good' people and 'bad' people so I've never particularly worried about this aspect of it. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
A friend of mine makes decisions by asking himself one thing, and it made me think long and hard:
"If everyone acted the way I did, would the world be a better place?" |
You really had never heard this before your friend said it to you? |
I'd never met a person that had put it into practise so thoroughly. People say it, but this guy actually does it. |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| "If everyone acted the way I did, would the world be a better place?" |
That would be a very arrogant attitude to have. Not to mention sanctimonious. It implies that "your" way is the solution to all the world's ills. I don't pretend to have that kind of knowledge.
I know that if everyone acted like me, the world would be full of drunk DJs who don't like the sunlight. |
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superacidjax
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
| Volunteer at a soup kitchen or volunteer to help educate people. Start an organisation to create sustainable jobs and investments. Start an organisation to challenge people to help. |
First of all, I've been homeless. All of these "organizations" don't mean a damned thing. The one way off the streets is through your own ingenuity and hard work. I was homeless in Paris, where there are hundreds of homeless organizations. Did they help me? No way. I was a foreigner, so I wasn't "eligible" for any help. My embassy didn't help either. Who did help? The kindness of strangers and my own ingenuity.
The best way to help is not to start or join some self-righteous group, but do actually do something at the tactical level. If you want to help, go buy a blanket, and give it to some guy sleeping on the subway stairs. I was nearly freezing every night. I had to steal heavy cardboard construction signs to put on the ground in the park in which I was sleeping. The ground was so cold -- it sucked the heat right out of my body. If someone would have given me a heavy blanket, that would have done more for me than someone giving $100 to some organization I'd never see.
How did I get off the streets finally? The owner of a bookshop across from Notre Dame, Shakespeare and Company (www.shakespeareandcompany.com) , saw me carrying all of my posessions around whenever I went to browse his store. He tossed me the key to his top-floor apartment and said, "Go put your stuff upstairs." I then started working for him for about a month while I got my documents together to get a teaching job here in Korea. Now, I'm set.
The point is that some organization didn't solve my problems. I did.. with a little kindness from strangers.
So if you want to change the world, why not start by trying to change one life in your neighborhood today. Go buy a blanket, some kimbap and a bottle of water and take it to the guy sleeping on the stairs right now.
That's how you do it. It isn't about money, it's about attitude. Until you've slept in a phonebooth, park, doorway or at a bus stop during pouring rain or freezing wind, you can't begin to understand charity or its effects. It's easy to sit around directing people to give money and sitting in your warm room fantasizing about a better world. All of that psuedo-communist drivel means nothing. Real change happens when people are willing to go into the trenches.. and it's always one person at a time. |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
novernae I think you're not giving enough thought to the fact that all people are not the same. I am not a leader I am a follower. While that might not seem like a good thing to you try imagine a world where everyone was a leader and no one was a follower.
It's true that I am not very good at researching where my money goes and I do not even know where to begin such research but maybe if I were to spend all my money on researching I would just be wasting money that could be effective in providing help to poor people.
And I understand what you are saying about cheque-book charity. It doesn't require a great sacrifice on the part of people who give, but then again that is exactly my point...give what you can afford you won't be sacrificing much.
Nor am I suggesting that people have to limit themselves to this. When I had spare time to give I volunteered for work with old folks homes, homes for people who were mentally handicapped and people who were physically disabled. It's also true when for reasons that might have been completely selfish I didn't have time to spare I didn't do this kind of work. Whether I was doing this kind of work out of selfish or unselfish reasons didn't in itself make the time I contributed less valuable. altho' in some people's eyes it says a lot about whether I am a good person or not. Fortunately for me I don't believe in dividing people into 'good' people and 'bad' people so I've never particularly worried about this aspect of it. |
I am giving plenty of thought to the fact that all people aren't the same. I myself am more of a follower than a leader. I am, however, concerned that my actions will be wasted, so I'm very careful who I follow.
As for where to begin your research, the Internet is an extremely effective tool, and I can't really believe that it would cost you much money to do some basic research. Also, look at the materials provided by the specific organisation you are thinking of supporting with a critical eye. (Critical thinking is your friend, and it's also free...)
I also don't have much respect for people who, when confronted with the world's problems, give only until it may in some way 'inconvenience' them. Maybe that means that I divide the world into 'good' and 'bad' people, but there are bad people in the world, and I don't feel they deserve my respect (as for my definition of 'good' and 'bad,' realise that I have determined these with a lot of critical though, and I don't see the world as black and white). |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| superacidjax wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
| Volunteer at a soup kitchen or volunteer to help educate people. Start an organisation to create sustainable jobs and investments. Start an organisation to challenge people to help. |
First of all, I've been homeless. All of these "organizations" don't mean a damned thing. The one way off the streets is through your own ingenuity and hard work. I was homeless in Paris, where there are hundreds of homeless organizations. Did they help me? No way. I was a foreigner, so I wasn't "eligible" for any help. My embassy didn't help either. Who did help? The kindness of strangers and my own ingenuity.
The best way to help is not to start or join some self-righteous group, but do actually do something at the tactical level. If you want to help, go buy a blanket, and give it to some guy sleeping on the subway stairs. I was nearly freezing every night. I had to steal heavy cardboard construction signs to put on the ground in the park in which I was sleeping. The ground was so cold -- it sucked the heat right out of my body. If someone would have given me a heavy blanket, that would have done more for me than someone giving $100 to some organization I'd never see.
How did I get off the streets finally? The owner of a bookshop across from Notre Dame, Shakespeare and Company (www.shakespeareandcompany.com) , saw me carrying all of my posessions around whenever I went to browse his store. He tossed me the key to his top-floor apartment and said, "Go put your stuff upstairs." I then started working for him for about a month while I got my documents together to get a teaching job here in Korea. Now, I'm set.
The point is that some organization didn't solve my problems. I did.. with a little kindness from strangers.
So if you want to change the world, why not start by trying to change one life in your neighborhood today. Go buy a blanket, some kimbap and a bottle of water and take it to the guy sleeping on the stairs right now.
That's how you do it. It isn't about money, it's about attitude. Until you've slept in a phonebooth, park, doorway or at a bus stop during pouring rain or freezing wind, you can't begin to understand charity or its effects. It's easy to sit around directing people to give money and sitting in your warm room fantasizing about a better world. All of that psuedo-communist drivel means nothing. Real change happens when people are willing to go into the trenches.. and it's always one person at a time. |
Can you read? Everything you just jumped on me for I already said. My whole criticism was based on the idea that people give without actually doing anything. So I didn't give the example of the mighty idea of giving a homeless person a roll of kimbab, but don't discount everything I've said because of that. I suggested a soup kitchen because it is tangible. I also know in my community the soup kitchen does a lot more good than any donation agency ever will. You got out of it because someone actually DID something. Try reading my post again, as that it exactly what I was arguing for.
Don't attack people for not 'understanding,' you have no idea what I understand. Did your bookstore man ever live on the street? If he didn't then I guess he had no idea what he was doing when he helped you. |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Novernae
| Quote: |
| I also don't have much respect for people who, when confronted with the world's problems, give only until it may in some way 'inconvenience' them. |
A somewhat simplistic world view. Again people differ. Some people will put up with more inconvenience than others
| Quote: |
| Maybe that means that I divide the world into 'good' and 'bad' people, but there are bad people in the world, and I don't feel they deserve my respect (as for my definition of 'good' and 'bad,' realise that I have determined these with a lot of critical though, and I don't see the world as black and white). |
It must be very comforting to you to know that you are in a position to sit in judgement of other. Kudos on your ability to do this with 'a lot of critical thought'.
No doubt knowing they don't deserve your respect, has caused a lot of people to mend their ways.
Don't ever change. The world must be such a better place for having you in it. |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
Novernae
| Quote: |
| I also don't have much respect for people who, when confronted with the world's problems, give only until it may in some way 'inconvenience' them. |
A somewhat simplistic world view. Again people differ. Some people will put up with more inconvenience than others
| Quote: |
| Maybe that means that I divide the world into 'good' and 'bad' people, but there are bad people in the world, and I don't feel they deserve my respect (as for my definition of 'good' and 'bad,' realise that I have determined these with a lot of critical though, and I don't see the world as black and white). |
It must be very comforting to you to know that you are in a position to sit in judgement of other. Kudos on your ability to do this with 'a lot of critical thought'.
No doubt knowing they don't deserve your respect, has caused a lot of people to mend their ways.
Don't ever change. The world must be such a better place for having you in it. |
Yeah, you're right. I guess it is simplistic of me to give more respect to people who actually care enough to do something. I guess I should reconsider that.
As for judging, I'm not sure why it is wrong of me to do that. I am entitled to my own opinions about people; Opinions that I base on their own choice of actions. I guess since you don't see anyone as 'good' or 'bad,' your life and their life is a lot better for it. I guess you are friends with everyone and have never once been angry or disappointed in a person. Kudos to you, then. (and I'm sure your sarcastic comments were in no way a judgement of my ideas...) |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
| Grimalkin wrote: |
Novernae
| Quote: |
| I also don't have much respect for people who, when confronted with the world's problems, give only until it may in some way 'inconvenience' them. |
A somewhat simplistic world view. Again people differ. Some people will put up with more inconvenience than others
| Quote: |
| Maybe that means that I divide the world into 'good' and 'bad' people, but there are bad people in the world, and I don't feel they deserve my respect (as for my definition of 'good' and 'bad,' realise that I have determined these with a lot of critical though, and I don't see the world as black and white). |
It must be very comforting to you to know that you are in a position to sit in judgement of other. Kudos on your ability to do this with 'a lot of critical thought'.
No doubt knowing they don't deserve your respect, has caused a lot of people to mend their ways.
Don't ever change. The world must be such a better place for having you in it. |
Yeah, you're right. I guess it is simplistic of me to give more respect to people who actually care enough to do something. I guess I should reconsider that.
As for judging, I'm not sure why it is wrong of me to do that. I am entitled to my own opinions about people; Opinions that I base on their own choice of actions. |
So because you can see some people's actions you automatically understand their motivations. Not all people are gifted with your powers of discernment.
| Quote: |
| I guess since you don't see anyone as 'good' or 'bad,' your life and their life is a lot better for it. I guess you are friends with everyone and have never once been angry or disappointed in a person. Kudos to you, then. (and I'm sure your sarcastic comments were in no way a judgement of my ideas...) |
No I'm not friends with everybody. Some people I like but I don't necessarily think this means they're 'good' people. Some people I dislike but I don't necessarily think that means they're 'bad' people. |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
| Grimalkin wrote: |
Novernae
| Quote: |
| I also don't have much respect for people who, when confronted with the world's problems, give only until it may in some way 'inconvenience' them. |
A somewhat simplistic world view. Again people differ. Some people will put up with more inconvenience than others
| Quote: |
| Maybe that means that I divide the world into 'good' and 'bad' people, but there are bad people in the world, and I don't feel they deserve my respect (as for my definition of 'good' and 'bad,' realise that I have determined these with a lot of critical though, and I don't see the world as black and white). |
It must be very comforting to you to know that you are in a position to sit in judgement of other. Kudos on your ability to do this with 'a lot of critical thought'.
No doubt knowing they don't deserve your respect, has caused a lot of people to mend their ways.
Don't ever change. The world must be such a better place for having you in it. |
Yeah, you're right. I guess it is simplistic of me to give more respect to people who actually care enough to do something. I guess I should reconsider that.
As for judging, I'm not sure why it is wrong of me to do that. I am entitled to my own opinions about people; Opinions that I base on their own choice of actions. |
So because you can see some people's actions you automatically understand their motivations. Not all people are gifted with your powers of discernment.
| Quote: |
| I guess since you don't see anyone as 'good' or 'bad,' your life and their life is a lot better for it. I guess you are friends with everyone and have never once been angry or disappointed in a person. Kudos to you, then. (and I'm sure your sarcastic comments were in no way a judgement of my ideas...) |
No I'm not friends with everybody. Some people I like but I don't necessarily think this means they're 'good' people. Some people I dislike but I don't necessarily think that means they're 'bad' people. |
I don't really want to continue highjacking this thread to discuss whether there are good or bad people in the world, nor to continue refuting your claims that I think I can see people's motivations. If you want to continue this, please do so through PMs. |
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