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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
| My problem is with government generally... |
Understood. You dislike "government" -- and "hierarchies," I believe was the other.
Another antiEstablishmentarian. No point reasoning with you. I know your position and I disagree with it -- just as I know you would dismiss me as a mindless, patriotic, drone.
The only issue I would ask you to rethink is why you cannot talk about Terhan or Chavez without making sure we remain focused on America and "liberal democracy's" alleged faults? Can you not discuss X, Y, or Z on its own merits and without reference to America or "liberal democracy's" alleged faults...?
(Still standing by for a straight answer on your position on Chavez.) |
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Sincinnatislink
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Location: Top secret.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
The only issue I would ask you to rethink is why you cannot talk about Terhan or Chavez without making sure we remain focused on America and "liberal democracy's" alleged faults? Can you not discuss X, Y, or Z on its own merits and without reference to America or "liberal democracy's" alleged faults...?
(Still standing by for a straight answer on your position on Chavez.) |
I have a role, albeit very limited, in influencing American government and the US economy. I have even less RE: those of more direct means of oppression.
A government is a government. Chavez is a president, and perfectly legitimate if you believe such things can be legitimate.
*edit: quote tagging fixed. From here added afterwards, before responses.
It's awful convenient of you to "agree to disagree."
It keeps you from presenting a valid response. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Sincinnatislink wrote: |
You already think that Iran and such are awful places.
I'm working at showing you that Liberal Democracy is every bit as awful.
That's all. |
 Seriously? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Well, this is a new way to fix inflation and gain the trust of the FX markets and "the people".
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CARACAS, Venezuela, March 17 � Of all the startling measures announced by President Hugo Ch�vez this year, from the nationalization of major utilities to threats of imprisonment for violators of price controls, none have baffled economists quite like his venture into monetary reform.
First, Mr. Ch�vez said the authorities would remove three zeroes from the denomination of the currency, the bol�var. Then he said the new bol�var, worth 1,000 old bol�vars, would be renamed the �bol�var fuerte,� or strong bol�var.
Finally, at the behest of Mr. Ch�vez, the central bank said this week that it would reintroduce a 12.5-cent coin, a symbol of Venezuela�s prosperity in the 1960s and 1970s before freewheeling oil booms ended in abrupt devaluations, after three decades out of circulation.
Mr. Ch�vez champions these ideas, which will take effect in January, as ways to combat inflation, which in recent weeks crept up to 20 percent, the highest in Latin America. Officials blame �hoarders� for shortages of basic goods and price increases for food on the black market. Mr. Ch�vez says the renaming and redenominating the currency will instill confidence in it.
Gast�n Parra, the president of the central bank, went on television this week to emphasize that the effect of these measures on the value of Venezuela�s currency would be neutral, neither increasing or decreasing salaries, debts nor the price of consumer goods.
Private economists, however, say the changes, combined with inflation, could heighten confusion over prices. Those economists say the inflation is a result of a surge in public spending by Mr. Ch�vez and increasingly jittery efforts by the wealthy to circumvent tightening controls on prices and foreign exchange.
�We�re witnessing policy in the form of window dressing, all carried out at the whim of one man whose strong point is not economics,� said Hugo Far�a, an economist at the Institute of Higher Management Studies, a private business school here. �Anyone who sees a 12 �-cent coin as a remedy for this country�s problems isn�t thinking too clearly.�
Inflation has been climbing rapidly since January when a sharp decline in the black-market value of the bol�var pushed up prices of imported goods. Since Mr. Ch�vez moved to nationalize major telephone and electricity companies in January, Venezuelans have rushed to take money out of the country, currency traders say. That exodus has caused the bol�var to weaken by about 20 percent to a level of 4,000 to the dollar on the black market, placing it among the world�s worst performing currencies this year.
The decisions to rename the currency and reintroduce the unusual coin, known here as the locha, a term thought to derive from an anachronistic practice of dividing monetary units into eighths, have dumbfounded many Venezuelans. More than a third of the country�s population of 26 million is under age 18, with no memory of the coin, which stopped circulating in the 1970s.
�I think that it�s cheap psychology,� said Jhonny M�rquez, a manager at a transportation company. �I don�t believe the inflation will go down.�
Still, Mr. Ch�vez, 52, waxes nostalgic about the coin. Citing �the respect Venezuela�s economy has around the world� in a transmission of his television talk show this month in which he announced the coin�s return, Mr. Ch�vez said, �We�re going to end monetary instability in Venezuela.�
Mr. Ch�vez has said that redenominating the currency would reflect the economic strength that has been regained during his administration, ending a slide of the bol�var that began in 1983.
�Bringing memories of a past when the currency was strong may create the hope that the currency�s strong again,� said Fernando Coronil, an authority on Venezuelan history at the University of Michigan. �But if this does not match the real strength of the economy, these measures could backfire.�
By focusing on financial symbolism, economists say, Mr. Ch�vez is avoiding moves needed to thwart more erosion in the value of the bol�var. Public spending soared 48 percent last year to about $53 billion after the government lavished bonuses on civil servants and spent more on social welfare programs.
With oil prices at historically high levels, Venezuela�s economy is still growing at an enviable rate of about 10 percent a year, but economists say inflation is fueled in part by haphazard policies that prioritize consumption over saving. For instance, car sales are up 49.5 percent this year, according to the Cavenez automobile industry chamber.
Mr. Ch�vez has no intention of limiting his attempts at monetary reform to Venezuela. �One day in Latin America we will have our own currency,� he said on his television show, and he proposed naming it after Antonio Jos� de Sucre, a Venezuelan aristocrat and independence fighter who was a friend of Bol�var�s. |
http://www.nytimes.com]
As Milton Friedman said, "inflation is everywhere and always a monetary phenomenon". Chavez apparently feels that he can make bad economic fundamentals in the central bank go away by making the "people" feel good. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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El bolivar fuerte es una respuesta d�bil!
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| Gast�n Parra, the president of the central bank, went on television this week to emphasize that the effect of these measures on the value of Venezuela�s currency would be neutral, neither increasing or decreasing salaries, debts nor the price of consumer goods. |
No shit. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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My problem is with government generally. You already think that Iran and such are awful places.
I'm working at showing you that Liberal Democracy is every bit as awful.
That's all.
.[/quote]
Yes because living in Canada and other Western countries is every bit as bad is living in "Iran and such." 
Seriously you'd find very few people (if indeed any) in the West who would agree with something like this. And there'd be a large number of Iranians who also disagree with you. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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People vote with their feet. To discover which is the better civilization, the more hospitable place for humans to live, look at the traffic between states/cultures/civilizations.
I'm no fan of Western governments, but I also have been endowed with a good sense of perspective. I really dislike the Canadian government, but I'm damn lucky to have been born there. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| People vote with their feet. To discover which is the better civilization, the more hospitable place for humans to live, look at the traffic between states/cultures/civilizations... |
Interesting test: as there are tens of millions upon tens of millions of Mexicans, Central Americans, Venezuelans, Colombians, Brazilians, and others, particularly from East Asia and the Arab Middle East, waiting in line and some of them not even willing to do that, to live in the United States and not vice versa.
Same goes for similar amounts of Turks, Arabs, Pakistanis, Indians, and North Africans in Britian, Germany, France, and the rest of the EU and not vice versa.
What gives, Sincinnati...? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
People vote with their feet. To discover which is the better civilization, the more hospitable place for humans to live, look at the traffic between states/cultures/civilizations.
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I would say inflation is even a better indicator of local consumer confidence. Rapid inflation implies that locals no longer feel their money is valid. Thats why they trade it out to foreign currencies, and hold onto these with their life. Exchanging into foreign currencies lowers the value of their currency.
This has happened before in other countries, and it is now happening in Venezuela. Even Marx said Communism couldn't work unless it was international, a single wage system on this Earth would corrupt the most robust and efficient Communist state by giving a price value to its commodities. Why can't modern-day Socialists read their Marx? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Why can't modern-day Socialists read their Marx? |
Why couldn't Lenin and Stalin have read their Marx, for that matter? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't see how Chavez could control inflation by introducing new coins unless you have a sound economic policy behind it. There doesn't seem to be one. He thinks nationalizing everything and hunting down black marketers would do the trick, but such moves would encourage more people to put their money in foreign banks. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Chavez demonstrates what has become a motif of the socialist/communist national experience, that is, as soon as a socialist who claims to be a "man of the people" seizes or otherwise assumes the reigns of power, he immediately begins to consolidate it, institutionalize it, and glorify it. In essence, he becomes a dictator, not on behalf of the proletariat but against all adversaries real and imagined.
Stalin did it. So, too, did Mao. And Tito. And Castro. And Ho. And Mugabe. And now Chavez. A long succession of egotistical, self-serving, self-appointed, duplicitous politicians.
But the Left cannot stomach this brutal reality; so they mince words about neo-Marxism and how today's socialist leaders (who want life terms since only they apparently have the necessary vision to lead their people into a proletarian utopia) have thrown off the burden of the past and vulgar Marxism in favor of a more sophisticated, more egalitarian brand of worker power, ad nauseum.
If you're looking for proof, look no further than the Leftists who inhabit this forum, demonizing anyone and everything except the very people who deliberately set out to manipulate the public will and distort the civic spirit.
Never trust a Marxist, the worst kind of atheist and an elitist at heart, and anyone who purports to be a "man of the people" while looking for ways to extend his rule indefinitely. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Interesting test: as there are tens of millions upon tens of millions of Mexicans, Central Americans, Venezuelans, Colombians, Brazilians, and others, particularly from East Asia and the Arab Middle East, waiting in line and some of them not even willing to do that, to live in the United States and not vice versa.
Same goes for similar amounts of Turks, Arabs, Pakistanis, Indians, and North Africans in Britian, Germany, France, and the rest of the EU and not vice versa. |
Seems like you obviously grasp at the obvious so obliquely. This is just trite and uneducated, to assume people "vote with their feet" when leaving something so strong as their home countries.
People immigrate for so many reasons, many, many..... Kuros has suggested one. Two, what they BELIEVE to be better for their kids. Three, for psychological reasons of the grass being greener, Four, for reasons of connection, historical import, Five and most importantly, for reasons of population pressure........... I could name very many more.
I don't think it appropriate or intelligent to assume that such a complex issue as migration can be an indicator or those countries that are best governed or best to live in. Otherwise China would be right up there... Russia and also Morocco....to quickly name a few.
Let's also not forget that happiness is not of place but within..... or as that song goes, "always bring the weather with you."
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| But the Left cannot stomach this brutal reality; so they mince words about neo-Marxism and how today's socialist leaders (who want life terms since only they apparently have the necessary vision to lead their people into a proletarian utopia) have thrown off the burden of the past and vulgar Marxism in favor of a more sophisticated, more egalitarian brand of worker power, ad nauseum. |
This has nothing to do with left or right -- a better term would be a claim or leaning towards authoritarianism. Happens on both sides of the very belaboured and tired paradigm of left/right. Both so called Socialist leaders and also Conservative/Right leaders, tend to rebrand and repackage. Politics at this level is all about rebranding. Conservatives tend to say they will bring calm and order, Socialists, pie in the sky and a chicken in every pot. Both are wrong and only talking of the illusionary wrapping. You are wrong for saying one does, one doesn't. They all do.....
On topic. I saw the Walters interview with Chavez last night. Walters as always was wonderful (oh yeah, label me a lefty....). Chavez, I don't know what was worst. That he actually seemed to believe what he said, or that he used Martin Luther as the mailman..........give this guy enough rope and he will hang himself, I believe that......
McGarette, you'd be more right in labeling Chavez as a man of the "right" than "the left". He is authoritarian, controlling and like all those who want to control and not really fertilize discussion, individual freedoms, speaks out the side of his mouth while at the same time destroying the institutions that would deliver what he speaks of....
To end, Chavez or any other like him (think Bush) is just a man grasping at straws. Real social change happens quietly and not through the bellicose buffoonery of these types, whether it be claims to social justice or military dogooding....
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| If you're looking for proof, look no further than the Leftists who inhabit this forum, demonizing anyone and everything except the very people who deliberately set out to manipulate the public will and distort the civic spirit. |
UGH?
Could you give a few quick examples of the people you believe the "left" should be demonizing, beyond Bush and maybe Murdoch which the "left" does a good job at.....(and they do a good job at distorting the civic spirit [but still I'd also love that term defined, means diddly really....but sounds good])
DD |
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