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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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If you two have finished your ass-talking hate fest?
You're showing more intolerance and fear than usual. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
If you two have finished your ass-talking hate fest?
You're showing more intolerance and fear than usual. |
Intolerance? Yes. I am not tolerant of kids walking around wearing bedsheets. Are you, as a good lefty with no balls, tolerant of that? |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
If you two have finished your ass-talking hate fest?
You're showing more intolerance and fear than usual. |
Oh yes, we must be tolerant of everything. Never question anything becuse it might be "culturally insensitive". |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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It's a kid at a freaking soccer game!!
From that nothing basis you're running screaming into the night, all a quiver from Sikhs with swords, child abuse, and latent paedophilia.
Maybe tolerant was the wrong word, when I should have been appealing to reason, and a sense of proportion.
Fat chance of that, hey boys? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr-9N9fEgNA&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fricharddawkins%2Enet%2Farticle%2C672%2CWilliam%2DCrawley%2Dmeets%2DRichard%2DDawkins%2CBBC
The veil on a child is unquestionably child abuse.
Discussions about religion need to be taken away from the lefty religion of tolerance and returned to honest criticism. Dawkins and Sam Harris are right. Religion is a mental disorder that is passed from parent to child. And in the grand mosaic or diversity of religions, islam (as it stands today, despite all the apparent diversity in islam) stands as the king ding dong of mental disorders,,,paranoid schizophrenia.
So, to return to the OP. The girl should have been ejected from the tournament and taken from her parents and put in a proper home.
Last edited by thepeel on Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:39 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
It's a kid at a freaking soccer game!!
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Thats where you are wrong. Its SO way bigger than that now. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
It's a kid at a freaking soccer game!!
From that nothing basis you're running screaming into the night, all a quiver from Sikhs with swords, child abuse, and latent paedophilia.
Maybe tolerant was the wrong word, when I should have been appealing to reason, and a sense of proportion.
Fat chance of that, hey boys? |
Reason? How would a man of reason look at this? Do you even know what that word means? Is it reasonable to pretend that how this kid is made to dress is ok?
We were all disgusted by "Jesus Camp", why not here? The veil is the most extreme face of islam. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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A Canadian kid at a soccer tournament is worlds away from Saudi wack jobs. That's where the sense of proportion should kick in. It's only "so WAY bigger than that," Jinju, because people like you make it that way with flippant, histrionical reactions.
BJWD, you'll get no argument with me if you want to say religion is a malignant delusion transmitted from parent to child. I agree, and have done ever since I told my parents where they could stick going to church every Sunday. Dawkins is right.
We were outraged by Jesus Camp when we saw overt brainwashing; mental and psychological damage being inflicted on kids. I feel the same revulsion, even more so since the stakes are so high, when kids are given rote lessons on martyrdom. But there's NO suggestion, in this instance, that ANY of this is, or has, happened.
This is where your hysteria takes over, and you're roaming across a wide spectrum of experience, taking in burkas and veils, all that have nothing to do with the case at hand. It could well be, for this kid and family, wearing a hijab is no more an expression of identity as a jewish kid wearing a yarmulke, or a christian kid wearing a crucifix.
It's interesting that you cite Dawkins, since he promotes education and consciousness raising as a means to combat religion, as well as an avoidance of sterotypes. Makes me wonder why you insist on doing the opposite. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
| A Canadian kid at a soccer tournament is worlds away from Saudi wack jobs. |
I disagree because the mere fact of her wearing a hijab ties in with the ideology of those Saudi whack jobs. They would force the hijab on her if she was in Saudi, her parents are doing the same to her in Canada. How far does it go? Female circumsition? Honor killings?
| Quote: |
| We were outraged by Jesus Camp when we saw overt brainwashing; mental and psychological damage being inflicted on kids. I feel the same revulsion, even more so since the stakes are so high, when kids are given rote lessons on martyrdom. But there's NO suggestion, in this instance, that ANY of this is, or has, happened. |
Why is te hijab forced on women? Because they are seen as SEXUAL objects to be protected from men... To view a CHILD as a sexual object and then to treat her accordingly is IMO child abuse.
| Quote: |
| It could well be, for this kid and family, wearing a hijab is no more an expression of identity as a jewish kid wearing a yarmulke, or a christian kid wearing a crucifix. |
Neither the crucifix or the yalmulke carry the same connotation nor do thye have the same oppressive character. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| A Canadian kid at a soccer tournament is worlds away from Saudi wack jobs. |
I disagree because the mere fact og her wearing a hijab ties in with the ieology of those Saudi whack jobs. They would force the hijab on her if she was in Saudi, her parents are doing the same to her in Canada. How far does it go? Female circumsition? Honor killings? |
Religion has a lot of diversity, as you should well know, and it's not an all encompassing ideology. Female circumscion and honour killings are extremes practiced in very different parts of the world, in very different circumstances, that have nothing to with a Canadian kid wearing a hijab.
| jinju wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| We were outraged by Jesus Camp when we saw overt brainwashing; mental and psychological damage being inflicted on kids. I feel the same revulsion, even more so since the stakes are so high, when kids are given rote lessons on martyrdom. But there's NO suggestion, in this instance, that ANY of this is, or has, happened. |
Why is te hijab forced on women? Because they are seen as SEXUAL objects to be protected from men... To view a CHILD as a sexua object and then to treat her accordingly is IMO child abuse. |
I don't really know why people wear hijabs. It only conceals the hair, so unless you have a particularly specific fetish, I don't think it's going to do much to quell sexual desire. Could it be there are other reasons for wearing a hijab? I think, like BJWD, you're taking one item of clothing and confusing it with veils and burkas. They're not the same thing.
| jinju wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| It could well be, for this kid and family, wearing a hijab is no more an expression of identity as a jewish kid wearing a yarmulke, or a christian kid wearing a crucifix. |
Neother the crucifix or he yalmulke carry the same connotation nor do thye have the same oppressive character. |
Connotations for who? You? Why the hell should anyone stop wearing whatever they want, because you're jumping to conclusions and making negative free associations? As for the "oppresive nature", see above. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
I don't really know why people wear hijabs. It only conceals the hair, so unless you have a particularly specific fetish, I don't think it's going to do much to quell sexual desire. Could it be there are other reasons for wearing a hijab? I think, like BJWD, you're taking one item of clothing and confusing it with veils and burkas. They're not the same thing. |
I'm not going to let you change the subject.
If some brainwashed muslim woman wants to wear a bed sheet (in what ever form she folds it) out around town, then I might point and stare, but I won't stop her.
If some brainwashed muslim man makes his 11 year old kid wear a bed sheet (how ever folded) then he should be stopped. One of the basic functions of the state that I can accept, if none other, is to protect kids from abusive parents.
Like I said before, it is all too common in Singapore to see Indonesian muslims in Singapore with their aged 2 or 3 daughters fully KKKovered. That is child abuse plain and simple. Time we stopped pretending. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
I don't really know why people wear hijabs. It only conceals the hair, so unless you have a particularly specific fetish, I don't think it's going to do much to quell sexual desire. Could it be there are other reasons for wearing a hijab? I think, like BJWD, you're taking one item of clothing and confusing it with veils and burkas. They're not the same thing. |
I'm not going to let you change the subject.
If some brainwashed muslim woman wants to wear a bed sheet (in what ever form she folds it) out around town, then I might point and stare, but I won't stop her.
If some brainwashed muslim man makes his 11 year old kid wear a bed sheet (how ever folded) then he should be stopped. One of the basic functions of the state that I can accept, if none other, is to protect kids from abusive parents.
Like I said before, it is all too common in Singapore to see Indonesian muslims in Singapore with their aged 2 or 3 daughters fully KKKovered. That is child abuse plain and simple. Time we stopped pretending. |
How is this changing the subject? The case in point is about a kid wearing a hajib in Canada. You're the one bringing up Singaporean kids wearing burkas, latent paedophilia, and child abuse. If you're so concerned about sticking to the point, why not try addressing the OP instead of flailing wildly, swerving off into tagents of your own making?
You're so wrapped up in your own evangelical zeal that you're incapable of rational thinking on this topic. Let's take a look at your argument, shall we?
| BJWD wrote: |
| The girl is 11 years old. Having her wear a veil is child abuse. |
Based on what, you say? A link to a YouTube interview with Richard Dawkins. It's an interesting interview and I agree with pretty much everything Dawkins has to say. Funnily enough there's nothing that Dawkins' says that supports BJWD's position.
When Dawkin mentions child abuse, he makes it clear, that it's not the teaching of religion, or religious practices that constitutes child abuse, it's sectarian education over generations, and the labelling of children as "This is a Protestant child, this is a Catholic child, this is a Muslim child."
It's child abuse because it's tying a label around a child's neck, implying the child is a certain kind of person. Creating boundaries, and divisions, us against them. Exactly what BJWD is working towards I would have thought.
| BJWD wrote: |
| Putting a veil on a kid suggests a deeply dysfunctional father who is afraid of his own sexual attraction to his kid. |
According to who exactly? That's only your take on it, and, not suprisingly, the most extreme, sensationalist and negative one at that. Perhaps the parents look upon the hajib as Islamic scholars do, as a symbol for modesty, privacy and morality. Don't Quaker women get about with hair converings using the same logic?
| BJWD wrote: |
| it is all too common in Singapore to see Indonesian muslims in Singapore with their aged 2 or 3 daughters fully KKKovered. That is child abuse plain and simple. |
OK here you might have a point. If you're arguing against sectarianism, and fundamentalism then perhaps the 2 and 3 year olds you mention here are examples of that, and that's something worth worrying about. Still, I don't see why you can't differentiate between the extremes of toddlers wearing burquas, and a Muslim kid, living in a Western, secular society, wearing a hajib.
| BJWD wrote: |
| If some brainwashed muslim man makes his 11 year old kid wear a bed sheet (how ever folded) then he should be stopped. |
You're, pretty obviously, projecting your own ideas of Muslims onto this family.
* The dad isn't even mentioned in the article, so how can you suggest he's brainwashed? What are you basing this on?
* You don't seem capable of making a distinction between a head covering scarf, perhaps worn with contemporary Western dress (a soccer uniform perhaps), and a head to toe, shroud like burqua. Why is that? Maybe it all just signifies muslim, and muslim=bad in your equation?
Do tell.
Last edited by happeningthang on Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:20 am Post subject: |
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[quote="jinju"]
| happeningthang wrote: |
| A Canadian kid at a soccer tournament is worlds away from Saudi wack jobs. |
I disagree because the mere fact of her wearing a hijab ties in with the ideology of those Saudi whack jobs. They would force the hijab on her if she was in Saudi, her parents are doing the same to her in Canada. How far does it go? Female circumsition? Honor killings?
[ That is untrue about the yarmulke. Orthodox Jews are pressured to follow Orthodoxy sometimes. Do you really know their world? Yes, probably most choose that. I mention that because you said the yarmulke or kippa never has that connotation. That is not quite true, but there is far less imposition among the Jewish population at large when it comes to religion because ultra-Orthodox thinking is not the main thinking while ultra-Orthodox Islam is the dominant form and not Sufism.
Many of the girls who wear a hijab due it out of conviction.
I have known a girl in Canada who went to college who was a college student who chose to wear it. No one forced her to wear it. So why are you saying her parents are forcing her to wear the hijab. That sounds more like Hollywood. I think FIFA will not rule in favour of Quebec regarding banning the girl from wearing the hijab. It would cause a huge rift in the soccer community at large. You can argue that a religious Sikh family might strongly influence a child to wear the turban. Now, I don't really oppose France banning the head-scarf since religious symbols are banned in France. That is consistent. It doesn't really apply here, though.
Yes, many girls are forced to wear the head scarf especially due to the predatory actions of some men and the pressure of their parents |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: |
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Happeningthing,
A well rendered and thorough retort/reply. Glad to see you have the patience, i just don't anymore. In essence to me, the issue is cultural and in particular with those who throw labels around like "child abuse" regarding religion and parenting, cultural hegemony or even more precisely, ethnocentrism. Not seeing how this is how culture works and their is no complete seperation of the two, religion and culture.
I taught many Muslim students, some who wore the hijab and some who didn't. No difference to me and some who wore who were from loving families, some who didn't from unloving familes and all the converse. There are other ways to judge besides the bright lights of "look a religious symbol!". Adornment has far wider implications than purely parental control or religious observance....much more. Besides fashion, it has all sorts of communicative context. Anyways.......
I've lost all patience (for the moment).
DD |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Happeningthing,
In essence to me, the issue is cultural |
you strike me as the kind to accept anything on "cultural" grounds. |
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