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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Me and BJ agreeing again. The classic exmple is MDMA (Ecstacy). It was legal and widely availble one summer in Texas. Thousands of people took it and no one died, but that SOB Reagan hated people having non-prescription fun so they made it illegal. Now, last month Harvard University has said that they drug is good for PTS sufferers.
Again, those who think drug prohibition works are borderline retarded. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| As far as coca leaves, Bolivians have the right to grow it. They just shouldn't be selling cocaine... |
Adventurer: nice idealism. Little relationship with ground conditions, though.
Start with Gabriela Tarazona-Sevillano's Sendero Luminoso and the Threat of Narcoterrorism. Old but still illustrates local govts' problems vis-a-vis their failed attempts to control narcotics at the grass-roots level while at the same time trying to modernize nations like Bolivia and Peru.
There is no room for idealism in this situation, then: if Bolivians may grow coca, then we will continue to see narcotraficantes and their middlemen convert this very marketable product into drugs; if Bolivians may not grow coca, that is one way to dent the drug problem but will harm Bolivia's economy at the grass-roots level and potentially beyond.
Terrible, realistic choices must be made, then. Much more than mere abstract paradigm shifts -- that is, your call to focus on consumption rather than production -- are called for, Adventurer.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| As far as I know 2/3rd of the world's cocaine use is in the United States...People in other countries are maybe more content... |
Please cite your source. How did you arrive at this conclusion? And do you implicitly suggest that "people in other countries" and their governments are therefore somehow morally superior to Americans? Or that America primarily and decisively accounts for the world's drug problems today? If not, please clarify this point, too.
Everywhere I have lived and every nonAmerican I have come into contact with shows or reports evidence that strongly suggests to me that drug abuse is widespread around the world -- in Brazil, in Canada, in Chile, in Iran, in Mexico.
And, by the way, is not a major center of drug production and consumption, and has this not been so for quite a while -- as in millenia before any Britisher set foot in Plymouth Colony -- Asia? |
The U.S. does have the highest rate of cocaine consumption in the world. Perhaps, not the 2/3rd I heard of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine
[edit] Consumption
World annual cocaine consumption currently stands at around 600 metric tons, with the United States consuming around 300 metric tons, 50% of the total, Europe about 150 metric tons, 25% of the total, and the rest of the world the remaining 150 metric tons or 25%. [5]
According to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime 2006 World Drug Report, the United States has the world's greatest rate of cocaine consumption by people aged 15 to 64, 2.8%. It is closely followed by Spain with 2.7%, and England & Wales with 2.4%. Most Western European countries have a consumption rate between 1% and 2%. [6]
Here is another interesting link on the subject:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,450078,00.html
The United States does have the highest rate of consumption of drugs (I am talking about cocaine and heroin) in the world if we are to believe these facts. The question is not simply how to stop the suppliers but how to reduce people from consuming it, and it is not by giving everyone felonies.
Simply being punitive would simply not address the fact that so many people are taking these drugs and it is better to focus on prevention rather than getting them. Simply taking drugs harms a person on a personal level and people shouldn't be tossed in jail rather than being sent to rehabilitation.
People blame liberals for the increase in drug use, and I would suspect pointing fingers at drug lords and not taking responsibility for whatever cultural messages are being sent making children think drugs are okay. That needs to be addressed. That is what I am saying. Many Latin Americans state that the drugs may come from Latin America, but they don't consume even close to the same rate as the target countries do. However, as BJWD Brazil is an exception. I don't know what it is about Brazil. In Europe drug use is rising and may catch up with that of the U.S. I think the way the Swiss deal with drug users is more moral if you want to bring what "moral" means. I mean they are trying to protect the users from AIDs and reducing the spread of the illness. That is moral, I think. Of course, that is relative.
Drugs are used, so we can have this good feeling.
Why are so many people thinking they need to turn to drugs. People seem to ignore that. What can be done in America to fortify people psychologically so taking drugs is less appealing. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So as you said, people need to focus on the consumption or demand. There has been too much of a focus on the supply. We would make more headway by focusing on the supply.
I don't believe in condemning drug users or tossing them into jail for a long time. Yet, I don't believe in selling poison in the streets and legalizing stuff that could kill our youth.
As far as the term morality, when it comes to drugs I think it is wrong to ignore the reason why people turn to it and simply just punish people. That is my view when it comes to morality and drugs. That's all. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree.
Using drugs is ok. They are fun.
Abusing drugs is not ok. Any drug policy must take this truth into consideration. Harm-reduction will treat abuse as a public health issue and use as a non-issue.
The toxicity of the drugs will decrease as firms comply with governmental regulations take hold. They will become less harmful. And the new drugs designed will be less addictive.
It is the criminalization of drugs that causes the deaths, crime and alcohol abuse. Government have given a monopoly on intoxication to alcohol, which is one of the worst drugs full stop. The most intoxicated I've even been is via alcohol.
This is the future, but we just don't want to admit it yet. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| However, as BJWD Brazil is an exception. I don't know what it is about Brazil. |
Here are some vids on the situation there.
http://www.jonhs.net/freemovies/ross_kemp_on_drugs_rio.htm
http://www.mininova.org/tor/452455
Brazil has 50,000 homicides a year. That poor nation is a war zone because of a drug-model that encourages violence and criminality. It necessitates criminality and violence. Bring coke et al into the formal market and let these people free. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| ...if we are to believe these facts. |
I am not so sure, Adventurer.
I do not doubt that Americans consume many illegal drugs. I do know that Americans collate and publish a great deal of statistical information about themselves, while many many other peoples, cultures, and governments obscure, hide, or outright lie to defend their "culture."
Drug consumption. It is a below-the-board, black-market activity. What reliable, comparative statistics might we find and where?
And in any case your information does not square with the drug abuse, including cocaine and other local variants like the Brazilians' "Lanza Perfume" or the huge amount of drugs (and related drug-violence) one sees every single day in Santiago de Chile's Bella Vista neighborhood.
Did you know that the market price for cocaine in Chile is significantly lower than in the United States? Logistics. And the last time I lived there a scandal erupted. It seems a senior airline executive had been corrupted and was using his company's (not LanChile but some other less-known airline) regular flights to and from Bolivia and Peru to smuggle vast quantities of cocaine into Chile.
Demand for cocaine is probably everywhere where people who would consume it know about it and can get it, then.
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
...Mr. Park throwing you out a helicopter window [or] cutting your hand off.
My body, my choice. |
We need to work on your transitions, Octavius. Because it looks an awful lot to me like you are arguing that if Park were going to throw you out of a helicopter or cut your hand off you would object "my body, my choice," at least insofar as you reserve the right to refuse to be thrown from a helicopter or you reserve the right to select which limb or body part you might allow Park to cut off.
I know that is not what you meant. But this is what you wrote, dude. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| You're right sorry i get all worked up and this damn hangover doesn't help. I was just providing a reason why drug use is lower in Korea, brutal undemocratic punishment is why. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Hite REport:
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| Again, those who think drug prohibition works are borderline retarded. |
Same tiresome defeatist attitude. If it doesn't work well, why stop doing it altogether. Ya know, Octavius, I would love to have you set up residence in one of those drug infested neighborhoods in D.C., for instance, for about a month. You'd change your tune real fast. The problem with Leftists like you--who are really more libertarian in many ways--is that you don't dwell in the world your naive beliefs would create.
I'd ask you to think about that when you're not hungover. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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They are drug infested and dangerous because of the criminalization of drugs. It is that simple.
If alcohol were still prohibited, you would see "alcohol infested communities" with people shooting up their competition for booze sales. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| You're right sorry i get all worked up and this damn hangover doesn't help. I was just providing a reason why drug use is lower in Korea, brutal undemocratic punishment is why. |
Last time I lived in South Korea I got the distinct impression that a great deal of things were going on underneath the surface, behind closed doors, so to speak, that no Korean would ever permit any foreigner to see or know about.
I imagine South Koreans have comparable drug problems. Especially given the Russian maffia's having apparently penetrated this market so deeply.
And by the way I have no data at all to back any of this up. Just my impression.
Finaly, BJWD. BJWD, do you not recognize that we must draw some lines somewhere. I would legalize marijuana. No different than wine or many other forms of alcohol. And nowhere near as bad as cigarettes.
But "hard," addictive drugs? Come on.
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Keeping them illegal doesn't lower the harm that they cause. Keeping them illegal increases the harm that they cause. It may seem counterintuitive, but it is true. Harm-reduction must include decriminalization. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: |
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I personally do think that statistics shouldn't be ignored just because we don't like them. I think drug consumption is a world-wide problem. That is true. I do think that the various studies saying the use abuses hard drugs on average more than the rest of the world must have some merit. But this is not important. My point is people seem to ignore why it is appealing to the youth. The youth are trying to find the latest cool thing, and they are conditioned by modern global culture to go very fast, find the latest adrenaline rush or craze like the dangerous elevator surfing.
I think I might approach BJWD politically and say I am for decriminalizing the posession of personal doses of hard drugs. It is really a crime against yourself. Why should you be put in jail for that? Now if you sell the drugs on some massive scale, that is another thing. Also, allowing personal doses would allow for a drop in price. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Finaly, BJWD. BJWD, do you not recognize that we must draw some lines somewhere. I would legalize marijuana. No different than wine or many other forms of alcohol. And nowhere near as bad as cigarettes.
But "hard," addictive drugs? Come on. |
Why not? Guns are extremely dangerous, but if we were to make them illegal in the States they'd just be smuggled in with worse results.
I will say, however, the idea of a corporation profiting from cocaine sales would not make me happy. So your reluctance is understandable. I just think taking the power away from smugglers and narco-trafficers is worth the risk. No need to go fast. We could start with marijuana and work our way down. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| I personally do think that statistics shouldn't be ignored just because we don't like them. |
I hope you are not attributing this view to me, Adventurer. |
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