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Blackwater Mercenaries Expelled From Iraq
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mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:14 am Post subject:

EFLtrainer wrote:

All you do is attack my posts. You do not deal with the subject. This is the act of the scared, the cowed, the weak of mind.

You're developing something of a persecution complex before our eyes.

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:13 am Post subject:

EFLtrainer wrote:

dumbfuck:

How is that D I C K is bleeped by the swear filter and dumbfuck not? I guess I'll have to put that in my 'things to call dd' toolkit.

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:17 am Post subject:

EFLtrainer wrote:

Adventurer wrote:

I think the level of civility in this forum is really going down the drain. It seems like some people's "mouths" are like sphincters emitting foul verbiage.

There is no civility in lying, misrepresenting, using straw men, ad hominems, etc. It's just lies and *beep*. I know most of you accept that. I don't.

EFL, I understand you felt that your views were misrepresented, but as I told another poster people need to clarify what they mean instead of expecting people to be mind readers. You wrote that if a merc kills someone in a foreign land, and is not a soldier, then he is simply a murderer. I know you don't mean that to mean that if he killed an insurgent while guarding a sight then he is a murderer rather than defending his company and the business operating in Iraq. It is easy for people to misunderstand each other on a forum. I read carefully over what you wore to make sure I got your drift.

I do think the forum has really gone down in terms of tone of civility, there is so much sectarian type language, bigotry, generalizations, trashing a whole university, Left versus Right type finger pointing of the emotional type that would make one think we're in high school, anti-Semitism etc... You would think we were fighting a war against each other. I am not just pointing to people on this thread.

So do you understand that some of these mercenaries are legitimately firing back at insurgents? Obviously, some have committed crimes, but that is like saying there is no guilty people in some city's police force.

My criticism was not pointed at one particular person. I just think the forum is looking like an overflowing toilet full of dung and people are taking their insecurities out on each other.

Last edited by Adventurer on Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

gang ah jee

Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject:

EFLtrainer wrote:

mindmetoo wrote:

A straw man is not about the poster. The would be either an ad hominem or a "poisoning the well" fallacy.

Me typing too fast and not editing. My error. You know well I have used the term correctly in all otehr instances in our discusssions, but if this gives you thrill, hey... go get your's.

Actually, I don't think you have been using it correctly. It's funny you know, because IIRC you've humiliated yourself a several times with your shaky grasp of logic, while at the same time attacking others for not 'getting it'. The 'should all students study logic' thread where you showed that you have difficulty with inductive arguments was a good example. I also laughed when you were screaming that people here have never studied rhetoric, when every second post of yours is nothing more than a potty-mouthed bitch fit. I think I can say with reasonable confidence that if you never posted here again you wouldn't be missed.

In any case, you should thank MM2 for actually reading your posts. I think he's one of the few that bothers.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject:

gang ah jee wrote:

In any case, you should thank MM2 for actually reading your posts. I think he's one of the few that bothers.

Don't forget daskalos Very Happy

gang ah jee

Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

Don't forget daskalos Very Happy

Ah yes, he says it much better than I.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject:

Quote:

My criticism was not pointed at one particular person. I just think the forum is looking like an overflowing toilet full of dung and people are taking their insecurities on each other.

I agree. Too much breastbeating and goading.... I especially don't like those who write little snipets in reply, merely for their own amusement (twg excepted, he/she really is a good satirical counterpoint).

I also take exception to all the left/right, lefty/conservative stuff and yes, the antisemitism, bolshevism, homophobic and muslim/arab racist stuff (bigotry in general) that floats like a log in this toilet. People keep flushing but it won't go away. I guess that is just the general lay of the land.

If you say something in strong language against a poster - back it up with an arguement. You don't need to link/quote the Encyclopedia Brittanica but atleast take the time to organize your arguement and not merely shout, "ASSWIPE" or something such...

DD

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject:

bucheon bum wrote:

gang ah jee wrote:

In any case, you should thank MM2 for actually reading your posts. I think he's one of the few that bothers.

Don't forget daskalos Very Happy

Quote:

What�s most galling to those of us who share some of your political views (as evidenced ad infinitum on these boards) is that your tirades and rants do nothing to persuade anyone to the premise that Bush is an idiot or that he and his (rather, Cheney�s) lackeys are the core problem in the world today.

He sort of sums up my feeling. I certainly share many of EFL's views, I have some minor quibbles, points of order, and I don't share his extreme doom and gloom POV. I think humans can always pull their butts out of the fire at the last minute. However, his "debate as I say, don't debate as I do" tirades are highly embarrassing to those who might otherwise call themselves his fellow travelers.

It's like those Canadians who take an otherwise liberal American, expect him to defend Bush's crimes, and end up making the American move to the right. EFL being simply EFL hurts his cause far more than he realizes. The left should be very glad he's here in Korea and not back in America working for them.

In sum, hyper down, chuckles. Stop pissing your pants every time someone actually has a small disagreement with you and prods you to define and defend your position. IE, I don't like the idea of private soldiers being used in Iraq. They answer to no court. At the same time, you seem to label them murders. If that's your claim, back it up with some logic. I'm sorry I asked you to define your terms and supply logic. Your response was to piss your pants for all to see.

I don't like the Bush admin carving up Iraq for exploitation by oil companies. I just don't think it's going to happen any time soon, given the carnage. Your response was again to piss your pants.

I believe in Global Warming. I just don't think it's going to affect short term energy markets. Your response was to piss your pants.

Can you see a small trend? I agree with your general thrust on three important issues. I just take a moderate view. You piss your pants.

When people who share your views and politics come out here to distance themselves from you, you should take a long hard look at yourself, instead of leveling the charge we didn't study enough informal logic at the university level. You strike all concerned as one of those guys that has 12 different jobs in two years and it's never his fault for losing his job. He always has an ahole boss or his coworkers are out to get him... At some point, you have to turn the lens upon yourself.

Regarding your sig line: For those who don't follow the schlong fencing that goes on between you and gopher, it's not actually clear if the text that follows is yours or his. Is it a message TO him or a message FROM him? I understand now the words are his. Yes, tasteless. And if you plied me with enough soju, I'd have a mental state altered enough that I could grant you've never stooped to that level. No, really. However, as far as your raging about people answering your "ideas" with ad hominems, well the scrotum line is ... what exactly? It seems to me gopher's words hang him sufficiently. Remove the scrotum and then maybe you're on a more moral footing. You will disagree, naturally. So let's put it to a vote of your peers...

Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject:

ddeubel wrote:

Quote:

My criticism was not pointed at one particular person. I just think the forum is looking like an overflowing toilet full of dung and people are taking their insecurities out on each other.

Ddeubel, some of the comments on the board have really gone far with people engaging in personal, adhominem attacks when they feel others are not getting their "logic" whether they be on the Left or Right. You are right about the homophobia. I believe Octavius Hite was essentially told he was a fruit cake, his bravery was questioned just because he happens to be a homosexual, and he has taken the abuse in good stride, then you have had the bigoted posts, not much of the anti-Semitic ones lately, though, and some a little overhanded slams against both Americans and Canadians from different people. I suppose people don't want to simply debate the issues.

It is simple.

1)People should use clean language when addressing one another.

2)People should stick to the [u][b]facts, produce facts and figures whenever possible, and try as best as possible to [/u][/b]avoid generalizations.

3)Try to focus on the thread, the topic.

4)Don't impugn someone because of their sexual orientation, ethnicity,
country of origin whether it is America, Canada, or the U.K. even doing so in jest should be done with caution.

Finally, if you are confident about the facts you are presenting, don't feel you must engage in some personal crusade, jihad against Liberals, Conservatives, Muslims, or Jews, and the Left versus Right mudslinging is unproductive.

Summer Wine

Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject:

I tend to think of them as security guards and contractors, not as mercenaries. It could also be argued that they are just a part of the increasing globalization of trades. They just happen to work in Iraq as Security guards than in the US or their home countries. Many of them worked as security personel for oil companies before they moved to Iraq. They are still doing the same type of work they were doing in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. Its just that its more violent in Iraq and subsequently their reactions are more violent. Plus, if they are working for the Irqi government then they may be protected or charged under Iraqi laws. Its terminology, I understand but it must be understood that the world is changing and the terminology is changing too. Most view themselves as security personal not mercenaries, while that was an old word it may not be really relevant to todays discussion for many of them. They aren't there as a hired military force per se, but rather as an employee of a business protecting their security interests.

mindmetoo

Joined: 02 Feb 2004

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:11 pm Post subject:

Adventurer wrote:

1)People should use clean language when addressing one another.

2)People should stick to the [u][b]facts, produce facts and figures whenever possible, and try as best as possible to [/u][/b]avoid generalizations.

3)Try to focus on the thread, the topic.

4)Don't impugn someone because of their sexual orientation, ethnicity,
country of origin whether it is America, Canada, or the U.K. even doing so in jest should be done with caution.

I don't mind the wet towel slapping. If you're going all jinju and only emptying your anus, then I have a problem. On the old E2 quasi-wiki, there was a maxim: earn your bulls*clap*hit. If you can provide facts and arguments, I don't mind the wet towel slapping. I would challenge anyone to find an instance of me leveling the ad hominem charge at another debater (aside in the tu quoque sense). Lord knows I love biatch slapping rteacher around on his knowledge of science.

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject:

mindmetoo wrote:

EFLtrainer wrote:

All you do is attack my posts. You do not deal with the subject. This is the act of the scared, the cowed, the weak of mind.

You're developing something of a persecution complex before our eyes.

Complex? I could give a damn what you do, frankly. But count the number of posts you've made recently in relation to me that really have nothing to do with the topics being discussed.

I'm not persecuted. (How could I be? Frankly, an idiotic comment to make.) You just have a crush you can't manage.

Scary.

Last edited by EFLtrainer on Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject:

Adventurer wrote:

EFLtrainer wrote:

Adventurer wrote:

I think the level of civility in this forum is really going down the drain. It seems like some people's "mouths" are like sphincters emitting foul verbiage.

There is no civility in lying, misrepresenting, using straw men, ad hominems, etc. It's just lies and *beep*. I know most of you accept that. I don't.

Sadly, Adventurer, the "misunderstandings" are largely willful. You make the point above that I obviously did not mean all mercenaries. (Though, frankly, it needs some further consideration. Why should someone killing for money be treated any differently than a hit man? Hmmm...) It's easy to tell when people are genuine and when bullshitting. As you have pointed out, there is a lot of bullshit here.

Personally, I have made a decision to fight fire with fire. That came out of the pre-election bull coming from our stable of whackjobs.

Sue me, eh?

EFLtrainer

Joined: 04 May 2005

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject:

Summer Wine wrote:

I tend to think of them as security guards and contractors, not as mercenaries. It could also be argued that they are just a part of the increasing globalization of trades.

They just happen to work in Iraq as Security guards than in the US or their home countries. Many of them worked as security personel for oil companies before they moved to Iraq. They are still doing the same type of work they were doing in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. Its just that its more violent in Iraq and subsequently their reactions are more violent.

Plus, if they are working for the Irqi government then they may be protected or charged under Iraqi laws. Its terminology, I understand but it must be understood that the world is changing and the terminology is changing too.

Most view themselves as security personal not mercenaries, while that was an old word it may not be really relevant to todays discussion for many of them. They aren't there as a hired military force per se, but rather as an employee of a business protecting their security interests.

And one may legitimately ask: how legitimate are those businesses' activities in Iraq?

igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject:

EFLtrainer wrote:

Summer Wine wrote:

And one may legitimately ask: how legitimate are those businesses' activities in Iraq?

Increasing what? Global fascist police state, Babylon rising again.

How much more criminal does it need to get? Twisted Evil

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