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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
tomato all your sources are almost 20 years old and up.
I'm not disputing their veracity, but there must be something more current.
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| I'm going to go with the theory expressed above that it was due to climate change (either geo-evolutionary, or due ot shifting habitats) that caused the wearing of clothes |
I don't think that "global warming" would directly have an affect on the evolution of our clothes.
It WOULD affect prey habitat (and therefore prey) which would affect migratory behaviours.
I think the GW theory here isn't really a great explanation because the change would be far too gradual. The introduction of clothes would have to be a fairly punctuated event, I think. |
Well we do know that climate change is common. Between the 16th and 19th centuries there were several mini-ice ages which had a profound effect on European life. |
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Kyrei
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
tomato all your sources are almost 20 years old and up.
I'm not disputing their veracity, but there must be something more current.
| Kyrei wrote: |
| I'm going to go with the theory expressed above that it was due to climate change (either geo-evolutionary, or due ot shifting habitats) that caused the wearing of clothes |
I don't think that "global warming" would directly have an affect on the evolution of our clothes.
It WOULD affect prey habitat (and therefore prey) which would affect migratory behaviours.
I think the GW theory here isn't really a great explanation because the change would be far too gradual. The introduction of clothes would have to be a fairly punctuated event, I think. |
What I was getting at is that GW on an evolutionary scale, in the tens of thousands, if not millions of years, would come into play certainly. Anything done for the first time would be a "punctuated event" so that argument doesn't stand up.
What I REALLY want to know is, who was the first person [i.e. evolutionary aberrant] to think that drinking cow milk was a good idea? |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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swetepete
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Location: a limp little burg
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Kyrei wrote: |
What I REALLY want to know is, who was the first person [i.e. evolutionary aberrant] to think that drinking cow milk was a good idea? |
Some distant ancestor of Stockwell Day who was breastfed into their teens, probably. |
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Kyrei
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| swetepete wrote: |
| Kyrei wrote: |
What I REALLY want to know is, who was the first person [i.e. evolutionary aberrant] to think that drinking cow milk was a good idea? |
Some distant ancestor of Stockwell Day who was breastfed into their teens, probably. |
Umm.. thanks. That is an image I could have gone my whole day without conjuring up in my head. |
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blackjack
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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I doubt climate is the driving force behind clothes as the wearing of clothes has been adopted by almost every culture regardless of climate. however the amount of clothes worn is obviously affected by the climate.
I would say that the clothes orginated through cultural reasons. for example the chief of a tribe typically wears more clothing than the common folk while they wear more clothing than slaves. So to show off your wealth you wear more and finer clothes.
I have no sources to back up what i have said, however it sounds reasonable does it not?
On the flipside you could also look at clothes (esp. in cooler climates) as no more than a blanket that you wear during the day and several species (not just man) use "blankets" (these blankets can take the form of branches, straw, even dirt). So the introduction of clothes would not have been difficult.
As a final note, you have to be very careful in the use of the word evolution. wearing clothes is not an evolution. accounding to my text book evolution [L evolutio unrolling] Change in the genetic makeup of a population with time. (Gould,. J, William,. K. 1996. Biological Science volume one 6th ed.) The adoption of clothes is more a process of natural selection (in colder climates) in warmer climates it would simply be a cultural thing |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| blackjack wrote: |
| I doubt climate is the driving force behind clothes |
Well even in our own society we have very specific clothes for each season. If it suddenly got cold and we no longer had summer I think clothing would change drastically. |
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blackjack
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: anyang
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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what i meant is the driving force behind why people first started to wear clothes.
just wondering, why are there plenty of spelling and grammar nazis? but when people use scientific words wrong nobody seems to jump on them (sorry that was unrelated to you RACETRAITOR, it was just a general comment) |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| blackjack wrote: |
what i meant is the driving force behind why people first started to wear clothes.
just wondering, why are there plenty of spelling and grammar nazis? but when people use scientific words wrong nobody seems to jump on them (sorry that was unrelated to you RACETRAITOR, it was just a general comment) |
Probably because there aren't many science teachers on here. |
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swetepete
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Location: a limp little burg
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| blackjack wrote: |
just wondering, why are there plenty of spelling and grammar nazis? |
Yeah, who was the first spelling and grammar nazi? Is it a cultural evolution with its root in the first written languages, or were there cave-painting nazis as well? Consider...
the time: 40 000 years ago.
the place: a smoky vermin infested cave in southern France.
Ogg: Hey, Ayla, why did you draw that horse running to the left? You're supposed to draw it running to the right. Everybody always draws them running to the right. Have you no shame?
Ayla: Screw you, Ogg, you stupid proscriptivist basterd. I'm expressing my rejection of the norm and the status quo.
Or does it go back even earlier?
The time: 125 000 years ago.
The place: an African Veldt.
Blechh: Hey, Lucy, why are you eating that lizard gizzard before eating the intestines? You're supposed to save it for dessert. Everybody always eats the red ones last. Have you no shame?
Lucy: Screw you, Blechh, you stupid proscriptivist basterd. I'm expressing my rejection of the norm and the status quo. |
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Kyrei
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Ha ha, nicely done Swetepete! |
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Masta_Don
Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: Hyehwa-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| JMO wrote: |
What be the name of this book? It seems interesting.
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Strangely enough, Evolution. It's by Stephen Baxter.
Some of the ideas posted could be contributing factors (migration, social status) but what I'm curious about is, when people start wearing clothes, do they start by covering their genitals? It would seem that in times when language was rudimentary, people would still be relying on cues like male ornamentation to mate. In covering those bits they would be cutting out that cue which seems counter-productive, except as a cheater strategy.
Do indigenous people whose societies are still untouched, such as in inner Africa, do they wear clothes covering their gentials? |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Do indigenous people whose societies are still untouched, such as in inner Africa, do they wear clothes covering their gentials? |
I've never had a sun burnt coack but I'd bet it's unpleasant.
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What I was getting at is that GW on an evolutionary scale, in the tens of thousands, if not millions of years, would come into play certainly. Anything done for the first time would be a "punctuated event" so that argument doesn't stand up.
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A "first time" does not make a "punctuated event" though I have to admit I used the word "event" a bit too loosely. I mean to use the phrase "punctuated event" to mean that it happenned once and then it spread through the whole species or a group "in tact". This would be necessary for a group of proto humans who moved from Africa to Northern Europe as the difference in temperature between those to places would necessitate it (over the course of a few hundred years). The move would necessitate clothes and continued habitation in N.E. would demand them.
Conversely, GW on the million year scale see differences of a few degrees over many life times. A couple of degree between "really really hot" and "really hot" wouldn't necessitate any sudden need for coverings especially over hundreds of generations let alone continued use of them.
| Quote: |
| What I REALLY want to know is, who was the first person [i.e. evolutionary aberrant] to think that drinking cow milk was a good idea |
Well if they see other animals doing that, perhaps they thought it would be good for them too.
What I want to know is:
How did someone get the idea to COOK meat? |
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swetepete
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Location: a limp little burg
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Masta_Don wrote: |
but what I'm curious about is, when people start wearing clothes, do they start by covering their genitals? It would seem that in times when language was rudimentary, people would still be relying on cues like male ornamentation to mate. In covering those bits they would be cutting out that cue which seems counter-productive, except as a cheater strategy.
Do indigenous people whose societies are still untouched, such as in inner Africa, do they wear clothes covering their gentials? |
In modern cultures, draping one's package typically serves as camouflage; however, a genital garment sometimes exaggerates or highlights the wearer's equipment. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_toe
Or, for another example, see the once-popular 'nut-huggers,' worn here by a famous 'rocker:' 
Many 'primitive' tribes do a similar thing with gourds. Perhaps the original swathing of one's delicates was pragmatic (to minimize unwanted penetration, or to protect from bugs and thorns), or perhaps it was to draw attention and make exotic what might otherwise be seen as rather prosaic. |
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swetepete
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Location: a limp little burg
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
What I want to know is:
How did someone get the idea to COOK meat? |
Yeah. And who invented smoking?
I'm guessing 'by accident' for both.
Zogg, a hungry paleolithic hunter gatherer type, witnesses an antelope being flash fried by a random lightning bolt, figures it's a gift from the gods, and eats it. He considers it delicious and religiously significant.
For the smoking thing--probably folks were burning stuff to keep warm, and eventually hit upon some herbs that had a rather pleasant aroma. One of them was tobacco, and after a while they found that none of the other brands made quite such a satisfying fire. Indeed, life just wasn't the same without it. |
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