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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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 Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Holey moley don't let the turks in or they'll never leave. Just look at cyprus. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't there an old saying that in politics, TIMING is everything?
Anyways, CNN quietly mentioned on their news scroll Ambassador Blair was in the Middle East to meet with Israeli PM Olmert yesterday. So who exactly is this Ambassador Blair fellow?
And ... on another note 
Vatican Paper Set To Clear Knights Templar
2007 10 09
By Malcolm Moore | telegraph.co.uk
The mysteries of the Order of the Knights Templar could soon be laid bare after the Vatican announced the release of a crucial document which has not been seen for almost 700 years.
A new book, Processus contra Templarios, will be published by the Vatican's Secret Archive on Oct 25, and promises to restore the reputation of the Templars, whose leaders were burned as heretics when the order was dissolved in 1314
MORE ...
http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=1982 |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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It's been my belief from the start that Iraq should be a Turkey/Iran problem and not a US problem.
I say let them in and let the US leave. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| I say let the kurds have their own state in the north. |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
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Well, I was talking to a friend of mine about my posts, and not one far left nut job has responded yet.........here is what he said.
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| Far left iberals don't deal well with facts. What is important is "Bush lied! There were no WMDs It's an immoral war". Anything that jepordizes those basic beliefs isn't dealt with. They are not going to argue since they can't refute the facts. Tommorrow or the next day they will be saying "Bush lied! There were no WMDs It's an immoral war". Your comments won't even cause a ripple...... |
Good point, my man....good point.
dmbfan |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: |
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News just in:
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Turkey blasts Armenian genocide bill By C. ONUR ANT, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 6 minutes ago
Turkey swiftly condemned a House panel's approval of a bill describing the World War I-era mass killings of Armenians as genocide, and newspapers blasted the measure on their front pages Thursday.
The House Foreign Affairs Committee passed the bill Wednesday by a 27-21 vote despite intense lobbying by Turkish officials. The committee's vote was a triumph for well-organized Armenian-American interest groups who have lobbied Congress for decades to pass a resolution. President Bush warned that it could harm U.S.-Turkish relations, already stretched by accusations that Washington is unwilling to help Ankara crack down on Kurdish rebels based in Iraq.
"Unfortunately, some politicians in the United States have once again sacrificed important matters to petty domestic politics despite all calls to common sense," President Abdullah Gul said late Wednesday.
Armenian President Robert Kocharian welcomed the vote, saying: "We hope this process will lead to a full recognition by the United States of America ... of the genocide."
However, speaking to reporters Thursday after meeting EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana, Kocharian also appealed to Turkey to join talks on restoring bilateral relations.
Gul said in a recent letter there would be "serious troubles" if Congress adopted the measure. Many analysts have pointed out that a public backlash in the key NATO ally could lead to restrictions on crucial supply routes to Iraq and Afghanistan, and the closure of the U.S. Air Force base at Incirlik.
"Its passage would do great harm to our relations with a key ally in NATO and in the global war on terror," Bush said of the bill.
Turkey also is considering launching a military offensive into Iraq against the Kurdish rebels, which could destabilize one of the few relatively peaceful areas in the country.
The Turkish government condemned the panel's vote in a statement early Thursday.
"It is not possible to accept such an accusation of a crime which was never committed by the Turkish nation," the statement said. "It is blatantly obvious that the House Committee on Foreign Affairs does not have a task or function to re-write history by distorting a matter which specifically concerns the common history of Turks and Armenians."
Turkish newspapers also denounced the decision.
"27 foolish Americans," the daily Vatan said on its front-page headline, in reference to legislators who voted in favor.
Hurriyet called the resolution: "Bill of hatred."
The U.S. Embassy urged Americans in Turkey to be alert for violent repercussions.
Ambassador Ross Wilson said he regretted the committee's decision and said he hoped it would not be passed by the House.
"I sincerely hope the resolution will not be passed and will continue my efforts to convince members of Congress not to approve it," he said.
Historians estimate up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I, an event widely viewed by genocide scholars as the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey, however, denies the deaths constituted genocide, saying that the toll has been inflated and that those killed were victims of civil war and unrest.
State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said passage of the resolution by the House would gravely harm U.S.-Turkish relations and U.S. interests in Europe and the Middle East.
"The United States recognizes the immense suffering of the Armenian people due to mass killings and forced deportations at the end of the Ottoman Empire," McCormack said in a statement. "We support a full and fair accounting of the atrocities that befell as many as 1.5 million Armenians during World War I" � which he said the measure doesn't do.
U.S. diplomats have been quietly preparing Turkish officials for weeks for the likelihood that the resolution would pass, and asking for a muted response.
Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns said the Turks "have not been threatening anything specific" in response to the vote, and that he hopes the "disappointment can be limited to statements."
After France voted last year to make it a crime to deny the killings were genocide, the Turkish government ended its military ties with that country.
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I smell a fire burning that's about to get out of control:
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Turkish govt to seek go-ahead for Iraq incursion next week 17 minutes ago
The Turkish government will formally ask parliament next week to approve an incursion into northern Iraq to crack down on Kurdish rebels taking refuge there, a ruling party official said Thursday.
A government motion seeking the go-ahead is most likely to be submitted to parliament after a cabinet meeting on Monday, Sadullah Ergin, a senior lawmaker from the Justice and Development Party, told Anatolia news agency.
The draft text is ready, he said.
The United States has repeatedly urged Turkey not to take unilateral action in conflict-torn Iraq.
Ankara meanwhile says it has been left with no other option as neither Washington nor Baghdad are helping end the safe haven the separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) enjoys in northern Iraq.
A key US congressional committee's endorsement on Wednesday of a measure branding the Ottoman massacres of Armenians during World War I as genocide put further strain on ties between the two long-standing NATO allies.
Ankara is under increasing public pressure to take tougher measures against mounting violence by the PKK, listed as a terrorist organisation by Turkey and much of the international community.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan had said earlier the motion could be sent to parliament as early as Thursday.
By law, parliament must authorise any deployment of Turkish troops abroad.
The government is planning to seek a one-year authorisation for an operation in northern Iraq, where about 3,500 PKK militants are based, Erdogan said late Wednesday.
He hinted, however, that no immediate military action was planned.
"It does not mean that everything will happen once we have the authorisation," he told CNN Turk television. "We want to have the authorisation in hand so as to make a swift decision when it becomes necessary."
Ankara says the PKK enjoys free movement in northern Iraq and obtains weapons and explosives there for attacks across the border in Turkey.
It has accused the Iraqi Kurds, who run the region, of tolerating and even supporting the rebels.
Fifteen Turkish soldiers were killed in rebel attacks at the weekend, triggering public uproar and calls for tougher action.
On Wednesday, a hand grenade was hurled at policemen inside a shop in Diyarbakir, the largest city of the southeast, killing an officer and injuring five other people.
Two suspects were detained Thursday, officials said.
In neighbouring Mardin, a soldier was wounded when a landmine exploded during a security operation against the PKK, Anatolia said.
Remote-controlled landmine attacks have become a hallmark of PKK violence.
Turkey and Iraq signed an accord last month to combat the PKK but failed to agree on a clause allowing Turkish troops to engage in "hot pursuit" against rebels fleeing into Iraqi territory, as they did regularly in the 1990s.
Turkish observers doubt whether the embattled Baghdad government, which has virtually no authority in northern Iraq, can cajole the Iraqi Kurds into action against the PKK.
Erdogan Wednesday also expressed frustration with what Turkey considers the US failure to help curb the PKK, which Washington also considers a terrorist group.
A series of talks between US and Turkish officials, appointed to coordinate joint measures against the PKK, "did not produce the expected results," Erdogan told CNN Turk.
"They (the US) say they are against the PKK. If you are against, then you should do what is necessary," he said.
Turkish criticism of the US has increased recently after it emerged that US weapons given to Iraq had ended up in PKK hands.
The PKK has waged a bloody campaign for Kurdish self-rule in southeast Turkey since 1984 in a conflict that has claimed more than 37,000 lives.
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Get ready for Iraq War Part II where Turkey takes center stage. |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: |
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This is the new way that Democrats are trying to end the Iraq war so they don't inherit it (and have to deal with it) if an Democrat is elected.
That's ENTIRELY what this Turkey genocide thing is all about. Absolutely 100 percent.
Turkey is where 70 percent of US supplies flow through to Iraq.
You figure it out. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:59 am Post subject: |
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As always, they were: " ... only following orders ... "
Picture from 1915
shows Turkish soldiers standing next to hanged Armenians.
US lawmakers defied strident warnings by President George W. Bush by voting Wednesday to label the Ottoman Empire's World War I 'massacre' of Armenians as "genocide" sparking condemnation from Turkey
QUESTION: Would Mr. Bush have prefered HOLOCAUST?
Are 1 MILLION murders enough? |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:12 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, Democrats! Lets piss off one our allies, that is in somewhat of an awkward position.......and has supported us..........good job, a-holes!
Oh, this was passed on to me today,
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Koran ( 9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle.. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah;
And there was peace.
(Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?! |
Interesting......
dmbfan |
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bassexpander
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Location: Someplace you'd rather be.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: |
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This is nothing more than the Democrats stopping at no expense to cause as much damage as possible to the Iraq war situation. The Iraq war was won years ago. The country was defeated, and its rulers removed. Now it's the occupation that's in question. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that American casualties in the area have dwindled considerably.
What? Sunnis and Shiites starting to work together? Fewer American body-bags???
Unacceptable!
That just doesn't look good for Democrats in the coming elections. Quick! Stir up trouble! Turkey is on edge... let's throw salt in their eyes and get them to invade. In the meantime, we look like the holy ones for pointing out a genocide that happened 100 years ago, but nobody needed to think about today.
I think the Democrats want to end the war by the only way they see possible -- piss off Turkey, and get them to cut off our bases there. Even worse, they may want to push Turkey to invade, and cause a total implosion of the situation.
Seven years later, they're still pissed-off about the hanging chads in Florida.
This may even be as much as them trying to head-off a fight with Iran by stirring-up trouble nearby.
This is obviously VERY poor, and PLANNED timing for this genocide thing. In fact, they don't even have their history straight. Hundreds of thousands of Turks died, too. Suddenly, after nearly 100 years, we have to bring it up NOW, and try to stir things up? Totally irresponsible. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
| Seven years later, they're still pissed-off about the hanging chads in Florida. |
2000 / 2004
Strange some people just don't care about blatantly stolen elections 
One supposes there are bigger things mind you.
e.g. 40 years later & the MAJORITY of AmeriKa's public simply don't buy the offical line story on JFK's assassination.
| bassexpander wrote: |
This may even be as much as them trying to head-off a fight with Iran by stirring-up trouble nearby.
This is obviously VERY poor, and PLANNED timing for this genocide thing. Suddenly, after nearly 100 years, we have to bring it up NOW? |
The timing is rather interesting isn't it? Clearly not an accident or mistake.
As pundits have been commenting, it indeed likely could not have come at a worse time for G.W. & great mid-east crusade.
Hmmmmm ... wonder what major criminal distraction they're working on orchestrating now?  |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
This is nothing more than the Democrats stopping at no expense to cause as much damage as possible to the Iraq war situation. The Iraq war was won years ago. The country was defeated, and its rulers removed. Now it's the occupation that's in question. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that American casualties in the area have dwindled considerably.
...
I think the Democrats want to end the war by the only way they see possible -- piss off Turkey, and get them to cut off our bases there. Even worse, they may want to push Turkey to invade, and cause a total implosion of the situation.
This is obviously VERY poor, and PLANNED timing for this genocide thing. In fact, they don't even have their history straight. Hundreds of thousands of Turks died, too. Suddenly, after nearly 100 years, we have to bring it up NOW, and try to stir things up? Totally irresponsible. |
While I don't think the bill has done any good (note that Clinton got a similar bill removed in 2000 on grounds that it would damage relations with Turkey), the partisan line isn't nearly as clear as you suggest:
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Voting in support of the measure were Representatives Gary Ackerman (D-NY), Howard Berman (D-CA), Gus Bilirakis (R-FL), Steve Chabot (R-OH), Jim Costa (D-CA), Joseph Crowley (D-NY), William Delahunt (D-MA), Eliot Engel (D-NY), Eni F. H. Faleomavaega (D-SM*), Elton Gallegly (R-CA), Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), Gene Green (D-TX), Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX), Ron Klein (D-FL), Tom Lantos (D-CA), Donald Manzullo (R-IL), Michael McCaul (R-TX), Donald Payne (D-NJ), Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), Edward Royce (R-CA), Linda Sanchez (D-CA), Brad Sherman (D-CA), Albio Sires (D-NJ), Christopher Smith (R-NJ), Diane Watson (D-CA), Lynn Woolsey (D-CA), and David Wu (D-OR),
19 democrats, 8 republicans
Voting against the measure Gresham Barrett (R-SC), Roy Blunt (R-MO), John Boozman (R-AR), Dan Burton (R-IN), Russ Carnahan (D-MO), Jeff Flake (R-AZ), Jeff Fortenberry (R-NE), Luis Fortuno (R-PR), Ruben Hinojosa (D-TX), Bob Inglis (R-SC), Connie Mack (R-FL), Gregory Meeks (D-NY), Brad Miller (D-NC), Mike Pence (R-IN), Ted Poe (R-TX), Illeana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL), David Scott (D-GA), Adam Smith (D-WA), Thomas Tancredo (R-CO), John Tanner (D-TN), and Robert Wexler (D-FL). Representatives Ron Paul (R-TX) and Joe Wilson (R-SC) did not vote.
8 democrats, 13 republicans (15 if you include abstentions) |
That means that 70% of the democrats voted for the bill, and 38% of the republicans. There's definitely a difference, but it's hardly a matter of one party ganging up on the other. Or in other words, if all the republican members had decided to vote against H. Res. 106, it would have been defeated 19 to 29. |
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Vicissitude
Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Location: Chef School
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
| Yeah, Democrats! Lets piss off one our allies, that is in somewhat of an awkward position.......and has supported us..........good job, a-holes! |
Maybe you are reading a lot of strange conspiracy theories and propaganda from the far-right.
I'm not convinced that Turkey has been a good allie and supported the USA. As far as I'm concerned, they've been bought and paid for just like the majority of the so-called "allies" of the USA.
This conflict that Turkey started first has roots that go back to their first instances of genocide on KURDS residing in Turkey. This has been going on and started long before Bush was even born, well before his father took his first steps. I think Turkey would like nothing more right now then to go into northern Iraq and massacre as many Kurds as they could while on hot pursuit of "terrorists." This is their history repeating itself.
See how nice Turkey is to the Kurds:
http://kurdistan.org/Multimedia/turkey.html
Read more:
http://www.kurdistan.org/
| Quote: |
The Kurds in Turkey
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Kurds are a large and distinct ethnic minority in the Middle East, numbering some 25-30 million people. The area that they have inhabited--referred to on maps for centuries as "Kurdistan"--spans modern day Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey. Half of the Kurds reside in Turkey, where they comprise over 20 percent of the Turkish population.
Modern Turkey's founder, Mustafa Kemal (better known as Atat�rk--"father of the Turks"), enacted a constitution 70 years ago which denied the existence of distinct cultural sub-groups in Turkey. As a result, any expression by the Kurds (as well as other minorities in Turkey) of unique ethnic identity has been harshly repressed. For example, until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language--although widespread--was illegal. To this day, any talk that hints of Kurdish nationalism is deemed separatism, and grounds for imprisonment.
The Turkish government has consistently thwarted attempts by the Kurds to organize politically. Kurdish political parties are shut down one after another, and party members are harassed and imprisoned for "crimes of opinion." Most famously, in 1994 Leyla Zana--who, three years prior, had been the first Kurdish woman elected to the Turkish parliament--was sentenced to 15 years for "separatist speech." Her party was banned. More recently, in June the leaders of the pro-Kurdish People's Democracy Party (HADEP) were sentenced to several-year prison terms for allegedly having ties with the outlawed PKK guerillas. The state prosecutors' evidence consisted largely of press releases found in the HADEP offices from a news agency close to the PKK.
Adding to the grievances of Turkey's Kurds is the economic underdevelopment of the southeast. The Ankara government has systematically withheld resources from the Kurdish region. As a result, there are two distinct Turkeys: the northern and western regions are highly developed and cosmopolitan, part of the "first world," while the south and east are truly of the "third world."
The disparity and repression led to the formation of an armed separatist movement, the PKK, in 1984. While the majority of Turkey's Kurds do not openly support separatism from the Turkish state, many do support the PKK, as the only force fighting for broader Kurdish cultural, economic and political rights.
The state immediately responded to this threat with increased force, deploying some 300,000 troops in the southeast at an annual cost of $8 billion. In addition, the Turkish armed forces instituted a system of "village guards," paying and arming Kurds to keep the PKK guerillas out of their villages. Villages that refuse to participate in the guard system face demolition by the Turkish military, while those that go along suffer under harsh reprisals by the PKK.
The war escalated dramatically in the early 1990s. Between 1984-91, an estimated 2,500 people had been killed. Over the next four years, that figure shot up to 20,000. Some 3,000 villages have been destroyed by the military in an effort to rout out PKK sympathizers, creating more than 2 million refugees. |
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/turkey_background_kurds.htm
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Turkey plans long stay in northern Iraq
The government will send a motion to Parliament next week requesting authorization for a cross-border operation into northern Iraq to deal with a terrorist threat based there, with a possible incursion expected to involve up to 15,000 troops, government and security sources said.
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http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=124476 |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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From Yahoo:
Turkey recalls US ambassador for talks By C. ONUR ANT, Associated Press Writer
Thu Oct 11, 1:59 PM ET
ANKARA, Turkey - Turkey ordered its ambassador in Washington to return to Turkey for consultations over a U.S. House panel's approval of a bill describing the World War I-era mass killings of Armenians as genocide, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said Thursday.
Full article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071011/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_us_genocide
I'm curious how the Korean government is reacting to this situation. The Korean contingent is in Kurdistan, near the Turkish border. They can't be happy about having another army, the one from otherwise friendly Turkey, shooting things up in their neighborhood. Clearly the Koreans are not keeping things peaceful in that part of the country.
I also wonder how the Iranians are reading the situation. I'm sure they are happy about someone else giving Uncle Sam grief, but at the same time, Iran has its own very important interests in Kurdistan.
Should the US withdraw, as the Democrats want, leaving a very weak Iraq, will Turkey, Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia stop meddling? Will they see an opportunity for a land/oil field grab? |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| dmbfan wrote: |
Oh, this was passed on to me today,
| Quote: |
Koran ( 9:11 ) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle.. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah;
And there was peace.
(Note the verse number!) Hmmmmmmm?! |
Interesting......
dmbfan |
Do you read the Nostradamus stuff that comes in spam e-mail seriously?
Sura 9, verse 11:
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| If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), then they are your brethren in religion. We thus explain the revelations for people who know. |
From the authorized translation, available in full here:
http://www.submission.org/suras/sura9.htm
*******
For some serious reading on the question of the Armenian genocide, from people who are working to improve Turkish-Armenian relations, go here:
http://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkeyArmeniaREPORTOFTHETARC.htm
I know one of the Armenians involved in the commission personally. He has come under attack from local nationalists (just as Turkish nationalists attack the Turkish members of the commission) and has shunted to a desk job in the foreign ministry in Armenia by the current nationalist government because of this work. Really quite sad, as I think this represents the best way forward on this issue.
The commission concluded that the conditions of genocide as set out in the genocide convention were met (so the term is used properly), that some, but not all, participants in the events were aware of genocidal intent (this is the condition under dispute when we read about arguments about the genocide), but that legal action under the genocide convention cannot be taken because the convention cannot be applied retroactively.
This last point says nothing about what actions Turkey should take as a matter of justice, rather than legality. But I'm also certain that no progress will be made in the current environment of nationalist saber rattling in both countries. |
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