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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: Re: The Genital Mutilation Thread |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
In simple language, for its intended audience:
Genital Mutilation is terrible. Even when it happens to women who are not white. In fact, it is just as terrible when it happens to women who are not white, as it is when it happens to women who are. I do not agree to white or brown people performing it on either white or brown women. I do not agree that it is a good thing, whether you are christian, muslim or animist.
It's really not on, in my opinion. I would like to see it stamped out forever.
How about you dear posters? |
Big Bird,
While I agree with your opinion generally...its worth pointing out that - as far as I know - in countries where it is practiced, it is instituted BY women, who perform it on girls. Including their own family members. I know that in at least one culture in Kenya, most of the men know nothing about the practice until after they get married, and their wives tell them about it. At least one poster has mentioned a case where a woman from Oman who had undergone female circumcision didn't think it was a big deal.
I don't agree with the practice, and am very happy that it's illegal in western countries, but possibly the issue is deep and very problematic. For example, how are we, as westerners, to approach women who have undergone this practice? Many of these women feel scarred for life...but many of them also consider it a normal practice of their own culture and don't consider themselves victims. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: Re: The Genital Mutilation Thread |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
In simple language, for its intended audience:
Genital Mutilation is terrible. Even when it happens to women who are not white. In fact, it is just as terrible when it happens to women who are not white, as it is when it happens to women who are. I do not agree to white or brown people performing it on either white or brown women. I do not agree that it is a good thing, whether you are christian, muslim or animist.
It's really not on, in my opinion. I would like to see it stamped out forever.
How about you dear posters? |
Big Bird,
While I agree with your opinion generally...its worth pointing out that - as far as I know - in countries where it is practiced, it is instituted BY women, who perform it on girls. Including their own family members. I know that in at least one culture in Kenya, most of the men know nothing about the practice until after they get married, and their wives tell them about it. |
Are you some kind of apologist for men? Why haven't you started any threads about the crimes of men? Are you only interested in the crimes of women? Do you not hold men to the same moral standard as women? Perhaps because you think men are just savages anyway, eh? Is that it?
| MOS wrote: |
| At least one poster has mentioned a case where a woman from Oman who had undergone female circumcision didn't think it was a big deal. |
Yep, that poster would be me. 
| MOS wrote: |
| I don't agree with the practice, and am very happy that it's illegal in western countries, but possibly the issue is deep and very problematic. For example, how are we, as westerners, to approach women who have undergone this practice? Many of these women feel scarred for life...but many of them also consider it a normal practice of their own culture and don't consider themselves victims. |
Well, by not routinely condemning this practice in every second thread in which I have ever participated, I - as a priviledged white Western woman who is regularly labelled 'leftie' - have (apparently) broken some new unwritten and previously unheard of law. I am simply trying to make amends.
Unlike you, I may not pose or consider such problems. Please address these questions to someone less white, Western or leftie. |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Big Bird,
Okay. 
In any case, Happy Canada Day. ** a smooch from one leftie to another **  |
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mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: |
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That is a good question- how do you tell someone like that Omanese (?) woman that clitoridectomies are wrong? Are they wrong if the women choose to have them?
Yea I know it's not a choice for most, if not all, women who have it done to them. But imagine a girl who grows up in a place where it is a choice (as much as anything we can do can be called a choice) and she gets to be 21 and decides she wants to get it done for some reason. Should a country let her?
If so, obviously there has to be some regulation. Do we make it an age limit? I guess it would have to be. Make it 21.
I know some of you are going to find it horrible that I would imagine allowing it to remain legal. But do you really think you can convince countries that have this practice to outlaw it all together? Couldn't an age limit be more effective in reducing the practice? At least some of these women would actually be spared the procedure and decide not to get it because they've experienced the benefits of having a clit. All the Western preaching in the world wouldn't do as much good as a few women in a Muslim village talking about the wonders of orgasms. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| mack4289 wrote: |
| That is a good question- how do you tell someone like that Omanese (?) woman that clitoridectomies are wrong? Are they wrong if the women choose to have them? |
As mentioned in the article cited above, most of the "women" are not women, but girls, often as young as 12.
If I have to say anything to her, I'd say : "What these people want to do, it will not make you happy. It will take away your happiness. Strong sexuality is a big part of a woman's power, and these people want to take away every bit of your power. If you can stop this, you should."
But then, I'm just one human talking to another ... if I could do something, I would. Tell me what to do. |
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mack4289
Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| mack4289 wrote: |
| That is a good question- how do you tell someone like that Omanese (?) woman that clitoridectomies are wrong? Are they wrong if the women choose to have them? |
As mentioned in the article cited above, most of the "women" are not women, but girls, often as young as 12.
If I have to say anything to her, I'd say : "What these people want to do, it will not make you happy. It will take away your happiness. Strong sexuality is a big part of a woman's power, and these people want to take away every bit of your power. If you can stop this, you should."
But then, I'm just one human talking to another ... if I could do something, I would. Tell me what to do. |
But that Omanese woman apparently was happy. I think we should start sending explicit videos explaining and demonstrating clitoral orgasms to young Muslim women. That would go over well. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty sure Masters and Johnson demonstrated with scientific instrumentation that female orgasms are more intense that what us guys are allowed to have. Those of us non-sceintists who have been fortunate enough to be in the general vicinity of one will agree that it's an awesome thing to get next to.
Maybe it's men we should be educating about this ... just an idea.
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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The good girl says a good man is hard to find. The bad girl says a hard man is good to find.
Having been married for a lot of years I can say that Masters and Johnson were right. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
The good girl says a good man is hard to find. The bad girl says a hard man is good to find.
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Ha! Amusing. |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The bad girl says a hard man is good to find. |
In my experience, this is the best girl to find ... somebody might need to rethink their definition of "bad."
I hope it's not me.
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| You feel the you have been accused of supporting terror because you don't regularly condemn it. However a quick glance at your posting does reveal that you do indeed support islamic extremists. This is appropriate, as you are the most unbalanced and extreme poster on here. But at least you're honest, you don't even pretend to look at or talk about the whole picture, you're proudly pro Islam and anti US. I would take a neo con more seriously than you on any political issue, and that for me is really saying something. I loathe jingoistic neo cons, but I think people like you are far more dangerous and repulsive.True liberals need to separate ourselves decisively from radical extremists like you, as you make it so easy for the right to run their smear campaigns. You are a neo con's wet dream and a real liberal's worst nightmare. |
You, satori, are talking out your arse. First, I would like to know what 'pro Islam' means? If it merely means that all have the freedom to practice their religion (so long as they do not hurt or dominate others) then yes, that's me. If it means I see muslims as human beings, with both flaws and good points, yes that's me. If it means I'm not hysterical about the end of civilisation as we know it, because there is a muslim hiding under every bed, then yes it's me. However, I doubt that is what you mean at all. Secondly, I do not support Islamist extremists because they are Islamist extremists. I support the people of Lebanon and Palestine to resist the violence of their occupiers and attackers. If you ever bothered to read closely, you'd know that I am dismayed at the rise of radical political Islam. It bodes ill for all, including its practitioners. But because I am able to look at their side, and understand their position, there are certain posters (that sadly seem to include you) that buy into some kind of dichotomy whereby, because I do not see them as the devil incarnate, I somehow see them as angelic. It seems to me it is these people who are extreme and unbalanced.
Thirdly, can you define for me what anti-US means? If it means I disagree with pre-emptive military strikes and whatnot, then yes, I'm anti-US. But that's not it means to me, nor to you. There is so much about the US that I like. But why am I bothering to repeat myself here... I'm not the only one on this forum constantly having to fight against the 'with us or against us' philosophy.
Fourthly, I think its silly and simplistic to have little clubs like 'liberal' and conservative. I have my opinions on this and that and people want to label me 'leftie' or 'liberal.' It's too simplistic. Franky, I don't want you defining for me what my 'club' is supposed to stand for. I don't particularly care to be in your club.
As for your hysterical labelling of me as 'dangerous' and what have you, I think you've gone utterly potty. You're language is particularly extreme and overly emotional. Perhaps you need a good look in the mirror.
I like the fact that this forum has a spectrum of opinion, and don't go about telling people that they have no right to speak because I don't agree with them. I enjoy taking a particular angle and debating it. It's called freedom of speech. You ought to try it sometime, it's been fashionable in the West for quite some time.
Lastly, this is not about me feeling I have been 'accused of supporting terror.' You've conjured that out of your arse. It's about me 'apparantly' not condemning the unpleasant practices of brown people, and been a cultural relativist and other such nonsense. You perhaps missed the context in which this thread was born.
Time and time again, you've shown you really don't understand my arguments or positions. You read my writing full of your own prejudices and read into it things that are not there. I discovered this in my very first political discussion with you. Because I didn't agree with you that everyone had benefitted from the US being a superpower (i.e. certain third world countries with whom the US had interfered in their domestic affairs) you accused me of being a supporter of communism. I realised then I'd never have a sensible conversation with you. Please let's not get into any more dialogue with each other. It's pointless. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| bumpity bump |
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OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| I find it interesting how many people here are quick to jump to the defense of male circumcision. I wonder what the response would be if it was proposed (for whatever reason) that we cut of the clitoral hood of baby girls? |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| You feel the you have been accused of supporting terror because you don't regularly condemn it. However a quick glance at your posting does reveal that you do indeed support islamic extremists. This is appropriate, as you are the most unbalanced and extreme poster on here. But at least you're honest, you don't even pretend to look at or talk about the whole picture, you're proudly pro Islam and anti US. I would take a neo con more seriously than you on any political issue, and that for me is really saying something. I loathe jingoistic neo cons, but I think people like you are far more dangerous and repulsive.True liberals need to separate ourselves decisively from radical extremists like you, as you make it so easy for the right to run their smear campaigns. You are a neo con's wet dream and a real liberal's worst nightmare. |
This is exactly the type of post better placed on the Official Bashing Thread. The thread had been a civil conversation until this point. On this thread you can post something like, "See the OBT." |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| OneWayTraffic wrote: |
| I find it interesting how many people here are quick to jump to the defense of male circumcision. I wonder what the response would be if it was proposed (for whatever reason) that we cut of the clitoral hood of baby girls? |
Genital mutilation is offensive in males as well as females.
I do see the irony of Westerners preaching against female circumcision in Africa while being silent on the issue of routine infant circumcision in America where, while the rate is declining, a majority of male newbors continue to be submitted to genital mutilation. In the vast majority of cases it is done with no medical indication, without anaesthesia, has unnecessary risks, violates the male's right to integrity of his body, and causes lifelong harm even when the procedure goes "well" by permanently decreasing the amount of sexual sensitivity. |
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