Korean Job Discussion Forums :: View topic - The London Bombs

Speak Korean Now!

Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!

Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"

FAQ

Memberlist

Usergroups

Profile

The London Bombs - John Pilger
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next

Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

cerulean808

Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:55 am Post subject:

Roo

Quote:

Pilger is also a disinformation artist and a left wing fascist

You back that up with a rant from some grubby rightwing blogger? Good one, Roo.

Compared to the numerous prestigious media institutions and professional peers who have repeatedly recognised John Pilger's enormous contribution to journalism over decades.

You're a joke Roo, you make me laugh. Thanks.

excitinghead

Quote:

But back in '94/95, Pilger changed my view of the real world forever. It wasn't so much how he said it, is was the fact that he brought things to my attention at all. If it wasn't for him, I still wouldn't know, for instance, that the Thatcher Government had the SAS training the fuking Khmer Rouge.

Yeah it was in 1994 I first saw one of Pilger's documentaries. It was about East Timor and what the Indonesian occupier was doing there and of course the complicity of 'us' in the butchery. That doco did a huge amount for raising public conciousness in my country New Zealand and Australia, where our governments preferred the issue to remain outside public awareness.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:36 am Post subject:

Quote:

You back that up with a rant from some grubby rightwing blogger? Good one, Roo.

No I backed it up with Pilgers' words. And what makes him a "grubby rightwing blogger? Cause he has a different opinon than yours?

He has got a lot more class than Pilger who supports the insurgents.

According to [Jonathan] Freedland, the present Israeli regime is merely "a clumsy prizefighter driven to fury by a fly buzzing around its ears". His description of the entire Palestinian resistance as buzzing flies would be shocking if it did not accurately reflect Israeli racism, itself a virulent form of anti-semitism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,1059901,00.html

Quote:

Compared to the numerous prestigious media institutions and professional peers who have repeatedly recognised John Pilger's enormous contribution to journalism over decades.

and he is still a left wing fascist.

Quote:

You're a joke Roo, you make me laugh. Thanks.

Well at least I don't think that US support of the Shah justifies attacks against the US in other nations 30 years later by Iran. You are less than a joke , You are a moonbat.

jkelly80

Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:54 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

According to [Jonathan] Freedland, the present Israeli regime is merely "a clumsy prizefighter driven to fury by a fly buzzing around its ears". His description of the entire Palestinian resistance as buzzing flies would be shocking if it did not accurately reflect Israeli racism, itself a virulent form of anti-semitism.

Sorry, but Anti-semitism is the correct term. Israeli proponents play semantic games too (conflating Anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism comes to mind). It's factually correct, so the onus would be on Israeli supporters to come up with their own clever turn of phrase. It's how the game is played.

On the other hand

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:09 am Post subject:

Quote:

Seriously, in the past 13 years, I have never ever heard this fact mentioned by or seen it on mainstream media. It wasn't until I was working on my MA in Asia-Pacific studies that I came across it again, in very obscure academic journals.

I remember that being sort of general knowledge among people who were clued into politics back in the day. I know I read about it in New Statesman, possibly in articles by Pilger. I also saw somewhere, quite some time ago, that the ever candid Brzezinski was cheerfully admitting that the Carter admin had encouraged China's support for the Khmer Rouge.

Not defending anyone's being in bed with the KR, but I will say that it's probably the case that no one, neither in China nor in Washington DC, really thought that they had a hope in hell of returning to power post-1978.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:41 am Post subject:

jkelly80 wrote:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

The term was not created by Jews to gain sympathy rather it was created by someone who was anti Jewish as something to be proud of. Like the term anti communist . It is a stupid term but the term means anti Jewish.

Read more if you want to.

http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2003/10/john_pilger_def.html

Quote:

Antisemitism (alternatively spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is discrimination, hostility or prejudice directed at Jews. While the term's etymology may imply that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, it is in practice used exclusively to refer to hostility towards Jews as a religious, racial, or ethnic group.[1][

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

Quote:

Wilhelm Marr (1819�1904) was a German agitator and theorist, who coined the term "antisemitism" as a euphemism for the German Judenhass, or "Jew-hate".

Marr was an unemployed journalist, who claimed that he had lost his job due to Jewish interference. A political conservative, he was influenced by the conservative pan-German movement, as expounded by Johann Gottfried von Herder, who developed the idea of the Volk, and the Burschenschaft movement of the early nineteenth century, which developed out of frustration among German students with the failure of the Congress of Vienna to create a unified state out of all the territories inhabited by the Volk. The latter rejected the participation of Jewish and other non-German minorities as members, "unless they prove that they are anxious to develop within themselves a Christian-German spirit" (a decision of the "Burschenschaft Congress of 1818"). While they were opposed to the participation of Jews in their movement, like Heinrich von Treitschke later, they did allow for the possibility of the Jewish (and other) minorities participating in the German state if they were to abandon all signs of ethnic and religious distinctiveness and assimilate completely into German Volk.

Cover page of Der Weg zum Siege des Germanentums �ber das JudentumMarr took these philosophies one step further by rejecting the premise of assimilation as a means for Jews to become Germans. In his pamphlet Der Weg zum Siege des Germanentums �ber das Judentum (The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism, 1879) he introduced the idea that Germans and Jews were locked in a longstanding conflict, the origins of which he attributed to race � and that the Jews were winning. He argued that Jewish emancipation resulting from German liberalism had allowed the Jews to control German finance and industry. Furthermore, since this conflict was based on the different qualities of the Jewish and German races, it could not be resolved even by the total assimilation of the Jewish population. According to him, the struggle between Jews and Germans would only be resolved by the victory of one and the ultimate death of the other. A Jewish victory, he concluded, would result in finis Germaniae (the end of the German people). To prevent this from happening, in 1879 Marr founded the League of Antisemites (Antisemiten-Liga), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews and advocating their forced removal from the country.

Although he had introduced the pseudo-scientific racial component into the debate over Jews in Germany, it is unlikely that he was influenced by the earlier theories of Arthur de Gobineau (author of An Essay on the Inequality of Human Races, 1853), who was only translated into German in 1898, a quarter of a century after Marr's pamphlet appeared. Furthermore, Marr himself was very vague about what constituted race and, in turn, the racial differences between Jews and Germans, though this became a feature of Nazi racial science. It remained for later racial thinkers to postulate specific differences: these included Eugen D�hring, who suggested that it was blood, and Houston Stewart Chamberlain, an influential race theorist and husband of Eva Wagner, Richard Wagner's daughter, who suggested phrenology as a means of distinguishing races.

On the other hand, it does seem likely that Marr was influenced by Ernst Haeckel, a professor who popularized the notion of Social Darwinism among Germany's educated classes.

Despite his influence, Marr's ideas were not immediately adopted by German nationalists. The Pan-German League, founded in 1891, originally allowed for the membership of Jews, provided they were fully assimilated into German culture. It was only in 1912, eight years after Marr's death, that the League declared racism as an underlying principle. Nevertheless, Marr was a major link in the evolving chain of German racism that erupted into genocide during the Nazi era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr

and what Pliger said was an intentional slander that reveals what he is truely about.

yawarakaijin

Joined: 08 Aug 2006

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:33 am Post subject:

Agree with his politics/ethics/morals or not you have to admit that a good drubbing in Iraq WILL make Americans think about starting a war someplace else. That may be a benefit or a hinderance depending on political agenda. If the only thing these dead and wounded American soldiers accomplish in Iraq is to force the American people to think harder and deeper about when to send their sons and daughters off to war then they are truly heroes. Maybe not in the way the current administration intended, but heroes nonetheless.

caniff

Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:05 am Post subject:

yawarakaijin wrote:

Agree with his politics/ethics/morals or not you have to admit that a good drubbing in Iraq WILL make Americans think about starting a war someplace else.

I think you might be confusing the ability to topple another country's gov't using military force with the ability to pick up the pieces and make an orderly future for said country.

"A good drubbing"? Saddam and the Baathists received one, alright. It was Rumsfeld and the rest of the neocon space cadets who thought everything would be all rosy (literally, as in "They will welcome us with flowers") once major hostilities had ended.

But as far as this being an unsustainable military occupation? No, that could probably go on interminably. It's just that the American people now (generally) understand the lies behind the invasion, and wisely most no longer support the effort.

yushin

Joined: 14 Oct 2006

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:33 am Post subject:

politics aside...John Pilger is an Aussie and therefore pretty much rendered illiterate and therefore meaningless... can't really understand how he still gets in print...

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:49 am Post subject:

yawarakaijin wrote:

Agree with his politics/ethics/morals or not you have to admit that a good drubbing in Iraq WILL make Americans think about starting a war someplace else.
That may be a benefit or a hinderance depending on political agenda.

If the only thing these dead and wounded American soldiers accomplish in Iraq is to force the American people to think harder and deeper about when to send their sons and daughters off to war then they are truly heroes. Maybe not in the way the current administration intended, but heroes nonetheless.

The US didn't start the war the Bathists , the Khomeni followers and Jihad international never gave up theirs.

yawarakaijin

Joined: 08 Aug 2006

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:52 am Post subject:

caniff wrote:

yawarakaijin wrote:

Agree with his politics/ethics/morals or not you have to admit that a good drubbing in Iraq WILL make Americans think about starting a war someplace else.

Good points. But what would have been the point of fighting Hitler if America wasn't willing to put in the postwar effort of rebuilding a country they could get along with?

I think most people know that a military conflict with Iran or China would be pointless if America wasn't able to make sure a more stable and peaceful regime would follow. Unless however, you simply killed every single one of them and that on its own creates a whole other issue doesn't it?

arjuna

Joined: 31 Mar 2007

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:02 am Post subject:

yawarakaijin wrote:

If the only thing these dead and wounded American soldiers accomplish in Iraq is to force the American people to think harder and deeper about when to send their sons and daughters off to war...

Iraq Comes Home: Soldiers Share the Devastating Tales of War
By Emily DePrang, Texas Observer
(Posted on AlterNet)

[Excerpt:]

Michael Goss:

I gave the Army seven years. It was supposed to be my career. I did two tours in Iraq, in 2003 and 2005. But during the last one, I started to get depressed. I lost faith in my chain of command. I became known as a rogue NCO. That's how I got my other-than-honorable discharge.

One night they said to me, "Sgt. Goss, gather your best guys." I say, "Where we going?" They say, "Don't worry about it, just come on." So we get in the car and go. We drive three blocks away, and there's six dead soldiers on the ground. They say, "You're casualty collecting tonight." I'm not prepared for that. I wasn't taught how to do that. But you're there. So you pick them up, and you put them in a body bag, pieces by pieces, and you go back to your unit, and you stand inside your room. And they're like, "You're going on a patrol, come on." You're like, "Hang on a minute. Let me think about what I just did here." I just put six American guys in damn body bags. Nobody's prepared for that. Nobody's prepared for that thing to blow up on the side of the road. You're talking, and you're driving, and then something blows up, and the next thing you know, two of your guys are missing their faces. They just want you to get up the next day and go, go, let's do it again, you're a soldier. Yeah, I got the soldier part, OK?

It gets to the point where they numb you. They numb you to death. They numb you to anything. You come back, and it starts coming back to you slowly. Now you gotta figure out a way to deal with it. In Iraq you had a way to deal with it, because they kept pushing you back out there. Keep pushing you back out into the streets. Go, go, go. Hey, I just shot four people today. Yeah, and in about four hours you're going to go back out, and you'll probably shoot six more. So let's go. Just deal with it. We'll fix it when we get back. That's basically what they're telling you. We'll fix it all when we get back. We'll get your head right and everything when we get back to the States. I'm sorry, it's not like that. It's not supposed to be like that. All the soldiers have post-traumatic stress disorder, and they're like, "Hey, you're good. You went to counseling four times, you can go back to Iraq. It's OK." No. It doesn't work that way.

I have PTSD. I know when I got it -- the night I killed an 8-year-old girl. Her family was trying to cross a checkpoint. We'd just shot three guys who'd tried to run a checkpoint. And during that mess, they were just trying to get through to get away from it all. And we ended up shooting all them, too. It was a family of six. The only one that survived was a 13-month-old and her mother. And the worst part about it all was that where I shot my bullets, when I went to see what I'd shot at, there was an 8-year-old girl there. I tried my best to bring her back to life, but there was no use. But that's what triggered my depression.

When I got out of the Army, I had 10 days to get off base. There was no reintegration counseling. As soon as I got back, nobody gave a *beep* about anything except that piece of paper that said I got everything out of my room. I got out of the Army, and everything went to shit from there.

My wife ended up finding another guy. I'm getting divorced, and I'm fighting for custody. She wants child support, the house, the car, the boys.

I get three nights off a week. And I drink and take pills to help me sleep at night. I do what I can to help myself. I talk to friends. Soldiers who were there. Once in a while one of my old soldiers will call me, drunk off his ass, crying about the stuff he saw in Iraq. And all I can do is tell him, "You and me both are going to have to find a way to work this out." That's the only thing I can tell him.

I do martial arts, that's what I do. I go in a cage and I fight. It helps take my mind off of things. I get hurt, but I can't feel it. I don't feel it until after it's all over with.

So let's put this in perspective now. I got two Iraq tours, multiple kills, I picked up plenty of dead bodies, American bodies, enemy bodies. I killed an 8-year-old girl, which still haunts me to this day. I come back home. My wife finds somebody else. I'm sleeping on my brother's couch while she has the apartment, the kids, the car, everything that we worked on together. I work as a bail bondsman making $432 a week, which all goes to my brother. I have to fight just to see my boys because she's at the point where she thinks I don't deserve to see my kids because I haven't had help for my PTSD. She's scared I might do something stupid. And the VA won't help me out because of my other-than-honorable discharge. What else do you want to know?

Every month the VA sends me a letter saying I'm still under review. I'm like, I couldn't care less about the money. I don't care about disability percentage. I want you to tell me to go to this fucking doctor here and go get help. That's what I want them to tell me. If they think I don't deserve money because I got kicked out with other-than-honorable discharge, fine. But don't tell me I'm cured all of a sudden, because I'm not. I still have my nightmares, anxiety attacks, panic attacks, I still see the glitter from the IED blowing up when I'm going down the street. I still see the barrette in her hair when I carried her out of the car to the ambulance when she was bleeding all over me. I still see all that. And there's nothing that I can do about that now.

arjuna

Joined: 31 Mar 2007

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:10 am Post subject:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Pilger is also a disinformation artist and a left wing fascist

John Swinton on the independence of the press:

Quote:

There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it.

There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.

The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press?

We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.

(Source: Labor's Untold Story, by Richard O. Boyer and Herbert M. Morais, published by United Electrical, Radio & Machine Workers of America, NY, 1955/1979.)

Exception: John Pilger

thepeel

Joined: 08 Aug 2004

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:11 am Post subject:

Disgusting. And all for a lie.

yawarakaijin

Joined: 08 Aug 2006

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:40 am Post subject:

arjuna wrote:

yawarakaijin wrote:

If the only thing these dead and wounded American soldiers accomplish in Iraq is to force the American people to think harder and deeper about when to send their sons and daughters off to war...

Iraq Comes Home: Soldiers Share the Devastating Tales of War
By Emily DePrang, Texas Observer
(Posted on AlterNet)

[Excerpt:]

Michael Goss:

I gave the Army seven years. It was supposed to be my career. I did two tours in Iraq, in 2003 and 2005. But during the last one, I started to get depressed. I lost faith in my chain of command. I became known as a rogue NCO. That's how I got my other-than-honorable discharge.

One night they said to me, "Sgt. Goss, gather your best guys." I say, "Where we going?" They say, "Don't worry about it, just come on." So we get in the car and go. We drive three blocks away, and there's six dead soldiers on the ground. They say, "You're casualty collecting tonight." I'm not prepared for that. I wasn't taught how to do that. But you're there. So you pick them up, and you put them in a body bag, pieces by pieces, and you go back to your unit, and you stand inside your room. And they're like, "You're going on a patrol, come on." You're like, "Hang on a minute. Let me think about what I just did here." I just put six American guys in damn body bags. Nobody's prepared for that. Nobody's prepared for that thing to blow up on the side of the road. You're talking, and you're driving, and then something blows up, and the next thing you know, two of your guys are missing their faces. They just want you to get up the next day and go, go, let's do it again, you're a soldier. Yeah, I got the soldier part, OK?

It gets to the point where they numb you. They numb you to death. They numb you to anything. You come back, and it starts coming back to you slowly. Now you gotta figure out a way to deal with it. In Iraq you had a way to deal with it, because they kept pushing you back out there. Keep pushing you back out into the streets. Go, go, go. Hey, I just shot four people today. Yeah, and in about four hours you're going to go back out, and you'll probably shoot six more. So let's go. Just deal with it. We'll fix it when we get back. That's basically what they're telling you. We'll fix it all when we get back. We'll get your head right and everything when we get back to the States. I'm sorry, it's not like that. It's not supposed to be like that. All the soldiers have post-traumatic stress disorder, and they're like, "Hey, you're good. You went to counseling four times, you can go back to Iraq. It's OK." No. It doesn't work that way.

I have PTSD. I know when I got it -- the night I killed an 8-year-old girl. Her family was trying to cross a checkpoint. We'd just shot three guys who'd tried to run a checkpoint. And during that mess, they were just trying to get through to get away from it all. And we ended up shooting all them, too. It was a family of six. The only one that survived was a 13-month-old and her mother. And the worst part about it all was that where I shot my bullets, when I went to see what I'd shot at, there was an 8-year-old girl there. I tried my best to bring her back to life, but there was no use. But that's what triggered my depression.

When I got out of the Army, I had 10 days to get off base. There was no reintegration counseling. As soon as I got back, nobody gave a *beep* about anything except that piece of paper that said I got everything out of my room. I got out of the Army, and everything went to *beep* from there.

My wife ended up finding another guy. I'm getting divorced, and I'm fighting for custody. She wants child support, the house, the car, the boys.

I get three nights off a week. And I drink and take pills to help me sleep at night. I do what I can to help myself. I talk to friends. Soldiers who were there. Once in a while one of my old soldiers will call me, drunk off his ass, crying about the stuff he saw in Iraq. And all I can do is tell him, "You and me both are going to have to find a way to work this out." That's the only thing I can tell him.

I do martial arts, that's what I do. I go in a cage and I fight. It helps take my mind off of things. I get hurt, but I can't feel it. I don't feel it until after it's all over with.

So let's put this in perspective now. I got two Iraq tours, multiple kills, I picked up plenty of dead bodies, American bodies, enemy bodies. I killed an 8-year-old girl, which still haunts me to this day. I come back home. My wife finds somebody else. I'm sleeping on my brother's couch while she has the apartment, the kids, the car, everything that we worked on together. I work as a bail bondsman making $432 a week, which all goes to my brother. I have to fight just to see my boys because she's at the point where she thinks I don't deserve to see my kids because I haven't had help for my PTSD. She's scared I might do something stupid. And the VA won't help me out because of my other-than-honorable discharge. What else do you want to know?

Every month the VA sends me a letter saying I'm still under review. I'm like, I couldn't care less about the money. I don't care about disability percentage. I want you to tell me to go to this *beep* doctor here and go get help. That's what I want them to tell me. If they think I don't deserve money because I got kicked out with other-than-honorable discharge, fine. But don't tell me I'm cured all of a sudden, because I'm not. I still have my nightmares, anxiety attacks, panic attacks, I still see the glitter from the IED blowing up when I'm going down the street. I still see the barrette in her hair when I carried her out of the car to the ambulance when she was bleeding all over me. I still see all that. And there's nothing that I can do about that now.

Great article. It is a bloody shame the mainstream press in the U.S doesn't tell more (any?) stories like this to the masses. But that would treasonous wouldn't it? Rolling Eyes

Win or lose, Americans owe a great debt of gratitude to those who are laying down their lives over there. I've never had a problem with going after those responsible for 9/11. I've never been against punishing those who deserve it. However, this current administration is a utterly shocking and disturbing variant of what America is supposed to represent. If there is any justice in this world, Bush and his handlers will end up suffering from at least a percentage of the guilt and pain they have wrought.

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee

Joined: 25 May 2003

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:41 am Post subject:

arjuna wrote:

Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote:

Pilger is also a disinformation artist and a left wing fascist

John Swinton on the independence of the press:

Quote:

Exception: John Pilger

Why is Pilger an exception? He is a guy with an agenda. Is he going to report news that contradicts his agenda?

He is a disinformation artist and a left wing fascist. His words show it.

For some reason those in the anti war movement think while it is okay to question the government - they themselves are beyond being questioned.

Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:56 am; edited 1 time in total

Display posts from previous:

	Korean Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Current Events Forum	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 Next
Page 2 of 3

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

TEFL International Supports Dave's ESL Cafe