|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: |
 |
|
At least he's a good writer (and proof reads ...  )
I'm more inclined to conspiracy theories mysef, and I was impressed by the powerful imagery, dramatic tone, etc., but even I could see that it distorted some things to fit its atheistic - and I suspect Marxist - world view...
Only a real spiritual revolution can save the world from corruption. Political revolution always ends up getting corrupted.
Corrupt religion is bad, but (I think) real religion is good - for this life and the next. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
The problem with spirituality is that all too often when it reaches the masses, powerful individuals attempt to surmount their control over it.
And spirituality in a way becomes sort of like a political affiliation.
What humen beings need to realize is the God, or whatever you want to call it, is inside every single one of us. By removing this deep relationship with the infinite and projecting it on to false idols (i.e. religious figures) we in turn loose our spiritual sovereignty.
However, spirituality is a basic human desire and we all at one point in our lives ask the important question, "what the hell is all this?"
Society should support, but not dictate how individuals explore their spiritual self, and create laws to prevent the anamilistic sides of us from taking over. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
1.
| Quote: |
| And your use if this term is deliberate. ..Your use of the term "movie" is designed to minimalize its argument by associating with works of fiction. |
Umm, I�d say you are overanalyzing. I use the words �movie� and �film� interchangeably with no reference to fiction. I think you�ve seen a connection that isn�t there. What a surprise.
2.
| Quote: |
| It's called the internet. Nowhere else in our history on this planet have we had the ability to spread information like this to the masses. |
Ummm, again. Ever hear of a book or a library? The basic position presented in Part I has been around for just about ever. The claims in Part III have been around for decades. Lots of people know about these claims�including a good many people who post here at Dave�s. There is nothing particularly new in any of this. (I happen to agree with the essential argument presented in Part I, that Christianity is a mishmash of Ancient Near Eastern religions, but I think the film, as you would have it, overdoes it. Most scholars I�m aware of regard the myth of Osiris to have been more influential on Christianity than that of Horus. There were lots of dead and resurrected gods running around, but I don�t recall the cross playing a big role. I do remember some dogs and boars� tusks and sickles.) I�m going to leave it at that, because I�m not all that interested in ancient religions.
My main point is that these are not new conspiracy allegations. Go to any good library and look up books on the relationship between Christianity and any of the Near Eastern religions. It�s all there. It�s not as cut and dried as the film made it seem, but the essential information is there�written by scholars who spent their whole lives researching this stuff.
3. You completely missed the point about Rockefeller. Be that as it may.
4. I�m not interested in debating a conspiracy theory with you or anyone else. There are several fellow conspiracy fans here at Dave�s and lord knows, the internet is full of them. The amusing thing to me is that I�ve never met a conspiracy nut who didn�t believe in a whole raft of conspiracies. It�s never just one conspiracy�unless they are just a beginner. Sooner or later they tie all of the conspiracies together, so in a way it is all just one big conspiracy. It�s kind of cute.
5. I do want to congratulate you on two things. You supplied information I didn�t know on the Southern Cross. I�ll file that away for use in case a Jeopardy question comes up. The other thing you did better than I could ever do is display the mind-set of a conspiracy fan. That closing was well done. It could be used in a text book. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Ya-ta Boy"]1.
| Quote: |
| Ummm, again. Ever hear of a book or a library? The basic position presented in Part I has been around for just about ever. |
Yet it isn't common knowledge amongst the masses.
Why is that?
If there is hard evidence that the Jureo-Christian faiths were rooted in pagan symbolism, why is it only a few educated individuals know of this.
I can guarntee you that if a poll was taken in the Western world to describe some of the tenants of the Judeo-Christian a large majority would be able to describe the basic figures/myths, and morals associated with it.
But if you asked the same people about the pagan roots behind all this, the vast majority would have no idea what you're talking about.
| Quote: |
| The claims in Part III have been around for decades. Lots of people know about these claims�including a good many people who post here at Dave�s. |
I really doubt that.
What % of the American public do you think realizes that a large portion of their Federal Income Tax goes to pay off the interest of an institution which has no Federal authority?
Why is a nations currency produced by a small select group of private individuals? And why is it in the interests of these individuals to have the government spend enormous amounts of money on wars which they profit enormously on?
Something's not right here.
| Quote: |
| 3. You completely missed the point about Rockefeller. Be that as it may. |
So what's your point. Did Rockafeller make more or less money after 1913?
| Quote: |
| I�m not interested in debating a conspiracy theory with you or anyone else. |
You just mentioned that Part 1 and 3 of the documentary are accepted and known fact.
And now you call them conspiracies? What is it?
| Quote: |
| There are several fellow conspiracy fans here at Dave�s and lord knows, the internet is full of them. The amusing thing to me is that I�ve never met a conspiracy nut who didn�t believe in a whole raft of conspiracies. It�s never just one conspiracy�unless they are just a beginner. Sooner or later they tie all of the conspiracies together, so in a way it is all just one big conspiracy. It�s kind of cute. |
And this applies to my original argument how?
| Quote: |
| The other thing you did better than I could ever do is display the mind-set of a conspiracy fan. That closing was well done. It could be used in a text book. |
The first people who made public the tuskeegee experiments were called conspiricists.
The first media outlets who brought up the Contra connection were labled left wing conspiracy wackos.
Members of the counterculture who first started to make public the idea that the CIA was using drugs on its own citizens )often without their knowledge) were also called conspiricists.
All of these examples have been proven to be indeed government coverups, which sometimes reached the highest level.
Governments have lied in the past. So forgive me for not fully trusting them now.
How is this the mindset of a conspiracy fan when these allegations were later proven to be true and even admitted by the US government? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
1. Yet it isn't common knowledge amongst the masses.
Why is that?
|
Because only we select few, the ones with the wisdom, intellect (often discredited by others), insight and judgment are in on the secret. It�s our job to enlighten the ignorant masses. The fact that the ignorant masses think we are a bunch of flakes who would be locked up but the loony bins are already full isn�t pertinent. Our egos can withstand it, so don�t worry about us.
Does your Messiah complex show up in other areas as well?
Yes, I'm being sarcastic. Maybe I shouldn't, but that is what you are showing and it feels good to point that out.
| Quote: |
| 2. why is it only a few educated individuals know of this. |
I can only presume it is because they were sleeping or hormonally challenged in Humanities 101 in college. That�s where I heard it first. (And that was 40 years ago.) What I really mean is that this is not as 'secret' as you seem to think it is.
| Quote: |
| 3. I really doubt that. |
Doubt all you want. It�s true. Start a thread and ask them. A very large number of posters here are educated and know about this specious claim. I'm serious. Ask them. One caution: If you only ask IGotThisGuitar and regicide, you'll only get the conspiracy point of view. But ask anyone else whose opinion you trust.
| Quote: |
| 4. which has no Federal authority? |
Obviously, it has Federal authority. (This goes back to the Messiah complex of the conspiracy theorists. �Only we know the secret truth and we will make you free--and the rest of you are just a bunch of stupid sheep'.
Do you honestly believe that every member of the Federal government and all the members of the state governments over the last almost 100 years have been in on a secret plan to defraud the public? Really?
| Quote: |
| 5. Why is a nations currency produced by a small select group of private individuals? |
Just how many different people do you want printing out currency? We tried that it was madness. Read a little history of the 1800�s and you�ll see what a mess it was when every bank printed its own currency. It was a major contributing factor to the Panic/Depressions of 1817, 1837, 1857 and the others. (I don�t swear by those exact dates.)
| Quote: |
6. You just mentioned that Part 1 and 3 of the documentary are accepted and known fact.
And now you call them conspiracies? What is it?
|
That�s not at all what I said. I never ever said these were facts.
I said the conspiracy theories have been known for years and years. There are fragments of ancient authors complaining that Christianity was just stealing ideas from different religions. There isn�t more because the Church didn�t have any stake in preserving those manuscripts. Obviously. Starting about 1800, there are scholarly works in comparative religion that note the similarity between ancient religions and Christianity. No one can absolutely prove that the Church Fathers sat around and plagiarized other religions. It�s fairly obvious they did, but no one can �prove� it.
The ideas in Part III of the movie (oops, film) have been around for years and years. I first heard them in the �70�s. I heard them from members of the John Birch Society. If you know anything about right wing flake organizations, you�ll recognize the name. They�ve kind of faded in recent years, but were for a time, a fairly well-known group of paranoids.
| Quote: |
| 7. And this applies to my original argument how? |
You�re not going to appreciate this, but conspiracy theorists think in definite patterns. It is a mental habit. It relates to finding some order in a fairly chaotic and insecure world. By imposing order on the chaos by connecting dots that are not related, they seem to derive a sense of power that counter-acts their sense of powerlessness.
8. How is this the mindset of a conspiracy fan when these allegations were later proven to be true and even admitted by the US government?
| Quote: |
Ummm�did anyone ever give you a surprise birthday party? If so, they conspired to do it. Does that mean that all your friends� relationships are conspiracies? I doubt it. Of course there have been conspiracies and cover-ups in history. That does not mean that all of history is a conspiracy and cover-up.
I suppose the bad news in all of this is that yes, you do have to pay taxes. Those two or three people who you saw in the movie who haven�t been paying up will eventually have to. The government is rather preoccupied with squandering our blood and treasure in Iraq right now and doesn�t have the time or manpower to chase down every tax chiseler.
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Does your Messiah complex show up in other areas as well? |
Messiah complex eh? I just find it frustrating that literally billions of people on the planet follow faiths without knowing their roots.
We have seen throughout human history how certain politcal figures have utilized the notion that their particular religion is superior. They have in turn used this idea to creat divisions and also unify the masses within their control to carry out their own political gains.
I'm a secularist Ya-ta. I believe in reason and truth and the scientific method. Therefore when I make statements like the masses are uninformed, it not based out of some messianic notion that they need to be enlightened to a new belief based on faith.
The quest for secularism is not messianic because it's based on a seperation from ideas rooted in faith.
| Quote: |
| I can only presume it is because they were sleeping or hormonally challenged in Humanities 101 in college. That�s where I heard it first. (And that was 40 years ago.) What I really mean is that this is not as 'secret' as you seem to think it is. |
Again, the majority of Westerners could likely name the basic tenents and figures of the Judeo-Christian faith. However, only the tiny minority could eludicate the roots of this faith.
Seriously, how many people could provide you with a detailed or even slightly comprehensionable description on how the Winter Solstice relates to the death and resurection myth? Or how deep astrology is in the roots of major religions? Or how three stars in the Belt of Orion are in fact the Three Wise Men?
| Quote: |
| Doubt all you want. It�s true. Start a thread and ask them. A very large number of posters here are educated and know about this specious claim. |
You're the one who first made this claim. So it's up to you to create the necessary thread to prove you point. Otherwise your argument is baseless.
| Quote: |
| Obviously, it has Federal authority. (This goes back to the Messiah complex of the conspiracy theorists. �Only we know the secret truth and we will make you free--and the rest of you are just a bunch of stupid sheep'. |
I know that the President appoints the Chairman of the Federal reserve. Along with the Board of Governers.
But what I mean by lack of Federal authority was the priting and dispersial of currency.
Why would a Federal government allow a private coorperation to print and issue its currency? And why would a Federal government allow this private institution to collect interest on this currency?
Who is making all the money off the massive debt of the US government?
Do they have an interest in maintiaing the status quo?
| Quote: |
| Just how many different people do you want printing out currency? |
Just one. The federal government.
| Quote: |
| That�s not at all what I said. I never ever said these were facts. |
So they're conspiracies?
| Quote: |
| No one can absolutely prove that the Church Fathers sat around and plagiarized other religions. It�s fairly obvious they did, but no one can �prove� it. |
huh?
So because nobody was actually there to document it, it must be a conspiracy correct? But what if an overwealming number of facts have been unearthed. Is it still a conspiracy?
You seem to be arguing that its a conspiracy and then it's not one. I'm confused.
| Quote: |
| You�re not going to appreciate this, but conspiracy theorists think in definite patterns. It is a mental habit. It relates to finding some order in a fairly chaotic and insecure world. By imposing order on the chaos by connecting dots that are not related, they seem to derive a sense of power that counter-acts their sense of powerlessness. |
You can lable me whatever you like.
I just feel that all the mainstream history presented to us while growing should not be taken as literal truth.
They teach you in your basic University classes to understand that history is always written by a certain perspective and thus you should examine as much sources as possible before making a decision about something.
Plus knowledge is in a sense power, and certain dissemenators of history have an invested interest in promoting their view of the subject.
But if you oppose this view it doesn't make you a wacky conspiracy nut. It makes you someone intent on examining as much sources as possilbe.
| Quote: |
| Ummm�did anyone ever give you a surprise birthday party? If so, they conspired to do it. Does that mean that all your friends� relationships are conspiracies? I doubt it. Of course there have been conspiracies and cover-ups in history. That does not mean that all of history is a conspiracy and cover-up. |
Excuse me, how does a now openly accepted coverup like the Tuskeegee experiemnts, or the funding of Contras, or countless other examples compare to a birthday party.
I'm quite shocked that you'd try to compare the two.
These are clear cut cases where the government lied to the public. This is accepted in academic circles and even admitted by those involved.
So don't be so quick to dismiss someone as a conspiricist. Sometimes they may be off base. However, there is a history of lies and half truths associated with government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its
creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
{R.A.H.}
It's an indulgence to sit in a room and discuss your beliefs
as if they were a juicy piece of gossip.
{R.A.H.}
No statement should be believed because it is made by an authority.
{R.A.H.}
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.
{R.A.H.} |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaeguKid
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Seriously Yata, Endo could not have said it better...you are an idiot. After reading your rip on my thread, I was just not going to bother with you. To say that my teachers and parents were lying to me. What kind of comment is that? You were not worth the reply, but it was nice to see Endo was up for it.
DK |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chaz47
Joined: 11 Sep 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
bump
I also think many should watch this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ernie
Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Location: asdfghjk
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
i love how people are labelled "conspiracy theorists" whenever they question the mainstream worldview, i.e. the tripe fed to us by the media oligarchy...
i'd like to popularize a new label: "coincidence nuts"
this describes people who go along with "accepted" explanations without question, re: JFK "magic bullet", contras, tuskeegee, 9/11, WMDs in iraq, etc, etc, etc, even though these ideas are more far-fetched than the ideas of the "conspiracy theorists"! i love how these people assume that the government and big business are benevolent entities who would NEVER consider advancing their own position... now THAT'S a fairy tale! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
I should have stuck to my first impulse and ignored anyone who takes their films/movies seriously in this context.
The most amusing part of this thread is the reaction to my comment about parents and teachers. Everyone who has mentioned it has revealed a serious inability to read plain English. Try reading it again without your defensiveness.
There is a difference between healthy intellectual skepticism and paranoid skepticism. One says to listen to an idea and then judge it against all the other knowledge you have accumulated. The other position is neurotic skepticism. Neurotic. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DaeguKid
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I should have stuck to my first impulse and ignored anyone who takes their films/movies seriously in this context.
The most amusing part of this thread is the reaction to my comment about parents and teachers. Everyone who has mentioned it has revealed a serious inability to read plain English. Try reading it again without your defensiveness.
There is a difference between healthy intellectual skepticism and paranoid skepticism. One says to listen to an idea and then judge it against all the other knowledge you have accumulated. The other position is neurotic skepticism. Neurotic. |
You originally said that if what our parents had been taught and in turn taught to us is wrong, then they were liars. BAH! How are you supposed to know your lying if you just assume it is true and that is what you been told. There were many things that were news to me in that film. Like US citizens not having to file taxes if they choose not to. I had no idea! And something tells me the average Dave Poster didn't or doesn't either. And that is only on small piece of that film!
You know what gets me about FOX media type folk, is that they love the taste of the crap that are fed. They never question what is up, but just think "hey, the guy on TV told me so...." and if someone comes up with a different thought or idea it is "neurotic skepticism". WTF?!
Someone in another topic said that G.W. and his "liberation" of Iraq and 911 have nothing in common. That 911 was a sepearte incident and that the planes hitting the towers that day had nothing to do with the agenda of GW and Iraq....All I can say to that is when is enough? When does one say, "hey that just doesn't seem right!"
To call something a conspiracy theory is just wrong...how about calling it another thought or idea.
DK |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Like US citizens not having to file taxes if they choose not to. I had no idea! |
It's a moot point here in Korea, but I hope you still believe that when you go back. Please record the day when the IRS comes to your door. I'd love to hear their reaction when you say you know you don't have to pay taxes because you saw it in a movie.  Too bad Al Capone didn't think of that defense.
| Quote: |
| There were many things that were news to me in that film. |
Could it possibly be that some of the claims sounded like news because they weren't true? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Czarjorge
Joined: 01 May 2007
Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I haven't watched the movie. I'll save it for when I get to SK and don't have cable anymore. But one point in the discussion struck me and I thought I would interject...
Christianity is kind of a carbon copy of Zoroastrianism, which really was the first monotheistic patriarchal religion. Only God was the sun. Sounds a bit like Egyptian... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Material science is limited to relativities. God, the absolute source of everything material and spiritual, is unlimited - with inconceivable power and intelligence.
As far as understanding absolute truth, The Supreme Being naturally reciprocates with minute living entities (who constitute his marginal energy) according to how they approach - reserving the right not to reveal it to materialistic persons with no faith in his pure representatives (and who deride the idea of supreme authority...)
So, for most of you on this thread - better luck next life...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
