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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
I've no problem with infinite regress. The Earth goes on forever. Try walking to the edge of the Earth and you'll see what I mean - you'll just walk around circling the globe constantly. Try going to the end of the universe. There isn't one. Stephen Hawking said the universe is boundless but finite and I imagine it is so in the same way the Earth is boundless but finite.
Anyway, we encounter infinite regresses all the time in nature and philosophy. When you're at the hairdressors and there's a mirror behind you and a mirror in front of you and you see a reflection of a reflection of yourself, it continues forever at speed of light. It just keeps on going and going and going until you leave your seat, pay up and leave.
See also:
1. X exists
2. "X exists" is true
3. "X exists is true" is true
4. "X exists is true is true" is true
5. "X exists is true is true is true" is true
See? Infinite regress. We know they exist so let's prepare for the possibility that the origin of the universe is as neverending as the 3 or 4 examples of infinity I describe above! |
Brilliant. I say without sarcasm. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
"ED209"s link indicates that disbelief is associated with disgust - perhaps explaining why so many atheists are so disgusting.  |
Or we find you disgusting. But yes a link between what we strongly disagree with and a feeling of disgust could be true for anyone. The rest of your post made me feel icky, so draw from that what you will. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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At least some faith is needed in the science of self-realization.
In order to fully understand our position, we need to know our relationship with the Absolute Truth.
If the Absolute Truth is (or were) material or void then faith in material science would perhaps suffice.
However, if the Absolute Truth is in fact a transcendental Supreme Person, then faith in a pure representative of God - such as Jesus or Muhammad or Srila Prabhupada -is required ...
Based on my appreciation of the scope and depth of the original Vedic religion, I'm convinced that spiritual science is ultimately more beneficial for our real self interest than materialistic science.
Last edited by Rteacher on Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
If you believe in a higher power, you're a theist, not an agnostic.
What I mean by "we are nothing more than our bodies" is that all emotion, all experience, all meaning, and anything felt as "spiritual" is ultimately a result of our material existence - mostly the workings of neurological processes.
Peace |
Im not a theist as I believe we dont have evidence... but I chose to believe in a higher power out of faith, but as no one really know what faith is..
Emotions, brain pulses, or what ever.. I stay with the evidence at hand and go with agnostic..
But with faith and personal belief I go with higher power.. just as you go with athiesm..
But I am not going to argue a GOD with evidence. I will just argue points where atheist have no clue either which leaves it open for possibilities of god and like the beginning of time we have debated god vs. no god as we still don�t have an answer and never will.. so we can all expect millions of books with theories over the next 500 years with all new humans living on earth asking the same questions..
your theory states we are nothing more than manifestations of brain circuitry... bascially just breathing zombies..
of course you are allowed to believe this.. and I believe you do believe this becuase well your brain has manifested itself to do so..
but of course this can not be proven. its just a theory and well there are countless theories on this..
but hey, I guess my brain has manifested itself to believe different right?
| Quote: |
| A belief in all-pervading spiritual agencies,�, �seems to be universal.� Darwin |
Why has it been from the beginning of time man has thought of god..
From all corners of the globe all tribes or people etc.. Have all been spiritual and believing in gods..
The question should be..
Why does the brain think of an existence of god?
Some might say, fear of death.. Or peace and harmony...
But there seems to be a blue print or we are hardwired for of god in our brains..
I doubt man was born and thought there is no god! You only need to look at history to see man has always believed in god on his own!
Before the religous Inquisition, im talking thousands of years ago, or hundreds of years ago in small tribes men have worshipped gods.. Of all different kinds and came up with is own their own....
If I left a baby on an island to grow on it�s on.. Would that baby grow up and think of a god?? Probably yes, because of lack of understating?
maybe.. but we cant be sure of that can we..
Well we don�t know all there is to know about the universe and the human mind, body and soul.. But people say there is no god anyway....
soul, conciousness, spirit, emotions ,free will all cant be explained perfectly
how do you do a test on soul anyway? or the others for that matter... |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that is the most coherent post you've ever made. Kudos. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| ED209 wrote: |
Better tell all those neurologists they're wasting their time. Despite their long practice of manipulating and recreating emotions. |
Recreating EMOTIONS??? Hahahahahaha
So how did this experiment take place?? They made a human with no emotions and then scientifically created emotions and inserted them into the subject and asked them.. Ok do you feel LOVE?
Ok do you feel angry when I show you a picture of me shagging your girlfriend??
Are you happy??
Give me a break!!!
I guess next you are going to tell me scientist have recreated consciousness in a lab and are now working on soul!!
Let me know when it�s on discovery channel that will make interesting television..
IM still wondering how they actually recreated emotions.. hahahahaha
I guess they are not coming forward to the science world with this hypothesis just yet er?? |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
If you believe in a higher power, you're a theist, not an agnostic.
What I mean by "we are nothing more than our bodies" is that all emotion, all experience, all meaning, and anything felt as "spiritual" is ultimately a result of our material existence - mostly the workings of neurological processes.
Peace |
Im not a theist as I believe we dont have evidence... but I chose to believe in a higher power out of faith, but as no one really know what faith is..
Emotions, brain pulses, or what ever.. I stay with the evidence at hand and go with agnostic..
But with faith and personal belief I go with higher power.. just as you go with athiesm..
But I am not going to argue a GOD with evidence. I will just argue points where atheist have no clue either which leaves it open for possibilities of god and like the beginning of time we have debated god vs. no god as we still don�t have an answer and never will.. so we can all expect millions of books with theories over the next 500 years with all new humans living on earth asking the same questions..
your theory states we are nothing more than manifestations of brain circuitry... bascially just breathing zombies..
of course you are allowed to believe this.. and I believe you do believe this becuase well your brain has manifested itself to do so..
but of course this can not be proven. its just a theory and well there are countless theories on this..
but hey, I guess my brain has manifested itself to believe different right?
| Quote: |
| A belief in all-pervading spiritual agencies,�, �seems to be universal.� Darwin |
Why has it been from the beginning of time man has thought of god..
From all corners of the globe all tribes or people etc.. Have all been spiritual and believing in gods..
The question should be..
Why does the brain think of an existence of god?
Some might say, fear of death.. Or peace and harmony...
But there seems to be a blue print or we are hardwired for of god in our brains..
I doubt man was born and thought there is no god! You only need to look at history to see man has always believed in god on his own!
Before the religous Inquisition, im talking thousands of years ago, or hundreds of years ago in small tribes men have worshipped gods.. Of all different kinds and came up with is own their own....
If I left a baby on an island to grow on it�s on.. Would that baby grow up and think of a god?? Probably yes, because of lack of understating?
maybe.. but we cant be sure of that can we..
Well we don�t know all there is to know about the universe and the human mind, body and soul.. But people say there is no god anyway....
soul, conciousness, spirit, emotions ,free will all cant be explained perfectly
how do you do a test on soul anyway? or the others for that matter... |
The evidence at hand points to atheism. I think you have too loose a definition of evidence. You use emotions, intuitions, experiences as evidence for a god. But these things are not evidence. The evidence (provable by the standards of any established science) overwhelmingly points to a meaningless, purposeless universe.
You also fail to realize the huge differences between possibilities and probabilities. Of course, nearly anything is possible, but when we speak of probabilities, many possible things are not even worth considering. The evidence can say nothing of the possibility of a god, but it can say heaps about the probability of god, that probability being that he/she/it does not exist.
You say you have faith in the existence of a god, but that you cannot prove such a god exists. This is not the agnostic position. The agnostic withholds belief. You are not withholding belief. You are insisting on believing in god in the acknowledged absence of evidence.
Peace |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: re: |
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Itaewonguy,
You also seem to be confused about the meaningfulness in the lives of many atheists. It is not necessary to believe in anything other than the material universe while maintaining a joyful, meaningful existence. I am sure you are aware of existentialism - that meaningfulness can be created in the midst of an overarching meaninglessness. I love, I feel, I experience, I enjoy - all without the need of a creator or soul. The religion/spirituality crutch is simply useless, and even more pathetic in times of emotional upheaval.
Peace |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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We know a great deal about the origins of the universe and a great deal about our own nature, unlike in ancient Israel. Get your DNA sequenced by National Geographic. It's important to find out how racism and biblical creationism have been utterly abolished by this great scientific breakthrough (how you can find out your kinship with all your fellow living creatures originating in Africa but also your kinship with all other forms of life - not just animal, but plant!) and you get an idea of how you are part of nature. That's wonderful enough, thanks. Don't need the Galileo-killers and their skygod to cheapen it all.  |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:50 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
[
The evidence at hand points to atheism. I think you have too loose a definition of evidence. You use emotions, intuitions, experiences as evidence for a god. But these things are not evidence. The evidence (provable by the standards of any established science) overwhelmingly points to a meaningless, purposeless universe. |
No no no.. Don�t get confused of when I debate other topics about emotions doesn't mean I relate them all to god..
I told you I believe in a power because no evidence can prove otherwise! You chose the other side because no evidence can show you.. And that�s life.. No one knows!! and will never know maybe..
atheist science proves to you its meaningless.. That�s why this debate goes on.. Because one side is not winning it.. Its not 99% of the people agree with you and 1% are on my side! Actually if I think about.. Atheism is a minority..
Anyway let�s not worry about that..
| Quote: |
| You also fail to realize the huge differences between possibilities and probabilities. The evidence can say nothing of the possibility of a god, but it can say heaps about the probability of god, that probability being that he/she/it does not exist. |
Not really.. Because when are talking about god or unexplained it can go either way depending on the debate, who is debating etc...
| Quote: |
| You say you have faith in the existence of a god, but that you cannot prove such a god exists. This is not the agnostic position. The agnostic withholds belief. You are not withholding belief. You are insisting on believing in god in the acknowledged absence of evidence. |
Ok maybe I am an agnostic /spiritualist/deist then to clarify it in a box..
Agnostic on my scientific stance and deist on my faith and belief stance.
As I don�t have evidence of why I choose to believe I feel some power is in play. I have no evidence to prove why I like green I just have to believe myself don�t I?
Just as you spiritually _(let�s call it that) believe their is no god.. Or can�t explain why you like horses.. And believe emotions have no will, no merit
And life is meaningless.. That�s what you believe so you must stick with that
| Quote: |
| You also seem to be confused about the meaningfulness in the lives of many atheists. It is not necessary to believe in anything other than the material universe while maintaining a joyful, meaningful existence. I am sure you are aware of existentialism - that meaningfulness can be created in the midst of an overarching meaninglessness. I love, I feel, I experience, I enjoy - all without the need of a creator or soul. The religion/spirituality crutch is simply useless, and even more pathetic in times of emotional upheaval. |
Sure I would find time to break dance in a German concentration camp too, nothing gets me down..
But the point is..
If you don�t believe in your emotions and you try to scientifically categorize every neuron, pulse, thought, emotion and feeling into nothingness then what do you have? A whole lot of nothing..
So I said to Ed or mind me or someone.. I said..
If an atheist does in fact say he believes in emotions then he is living a fantasy also.. Because deep down him knows they mean nothing,,
so he knows deep down love has no meaning..
So if it�s ok for an atheist to live in denial why isn�t it ok for a theist to do the same? There is no evidence on many neurological things to prove emotions, thoughts, consciousness etc.. But we live in denial everyday
but its seems most closed minded people don�t want to know about what others think because that�s not how they think so its wrong..
Now we get into racism, xenophobia and a ton of others.. Forget that..
thousands of years, millions of books, millions of testimonies, 2008 and billions of people believing and we still dont have winner..
one thing is for sure.. mans desire to believe is far greater than any need for evidence.,,. end of the day! go with your GUT! |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| We know a great deal about the origins of the universe and a great deal about our own nature, unlike in ancient Israel. Get your DNA sequenced by National Geographic. It's important to find out how racism and biblical creationism have been utterly abolished by this great scientific breakthrough (how you can find out your kinship with all your fellow living creatures originating in Africa but also your kinship with all other forms of life - not just animal, but plant!) and you get an idea of how you are part of nature. That's wonderful enough, thanks. Don't need the Galileo-killers and their skygod to cheapen it all. |
I have done that on my maternal side..
http://www.oxfordancestors.com/
sent my blood away last year.. im on their data base..
my dna goes back to armenia...
you should read The Seven Daughters of Eve interesting stuff... |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
[
The evidence at hand points to atheism. I think you have too loose a definition of evidence. You use emotions, intuitions, experiences as evidence for a god. But these things are not evidence. The evidence (provable by the standards of any established science) overwhelmingly points to a meaningless, purposeless universe. |
No no no.. Don�t get confused of when I debate other topics about emotions doesn't mean I relate them all to god..
I told you I believe in a power because no evidence can prove otherwise! You chose the other side because no evidence can show you.. And that�s life.. No one knows!! and will never know maybe..
atheist science proves to you its meaningless.. That�s why this debate goes on.. Because one side is not winning it.. Its not 99% of the people agree with you and 1% are on my side! Actually if I think about.. Atheism is a minority..
Anyway let�s not worry about that..
| Quote: |
| You also fail to realize the huge differences between possibilities and probabilities. The evidence can say nothing of the possibility of a god, but it can say heaps about the probability of god, that probability being that he/she/it does not exist. |
Not really.. Because when are talking about god or unexplained it can go either way depending on the debate, who is debating etc...
| Quote: |
| You say you have faith in the existence of a god, but that you cannot prove such a god exists. This is not the agnostic position. The agnostic withholds belief. You are not withholding belief. You are insisting on believing in god in the acknowledged absence of evidence. |
Ok maybe I am an agnostic /spiritualist/deist then to clarify it in a box..
Agnostic on my scientific stance and deist on my faith and belief stance.
As I don�t have evidence of why I choose to believe I feel some power is in play. I have no evidence to prove why I like green I just have to believe myself don�t I?
Just as you spiritually _(let�s call it that) believe their is no god.. Or can�t explain why you like horses.. And believe emotions have no will, no merit
And life is meaningless.. That�s what you believe so you must stick with that
| Quote: |
| You also seem to be confused about the meaningfulness in the lives of many atheists. It is not necessary to believe in anything other than the material universe while maintaining a joyful, meaningful existence. I am sure you are aware of existentialism - that meaningfulness can be created in the midst of an overarching meaninglessness. I love, I feel, I experience, I enjoy - all without the need of a creator or soul. The religion/spirituality crutch is simply useless, and even more pathetic in times of emotional upheaval. |
Sure I would find time to break dance in a German concentration camp too, nothing gets me down..
But the point is..
If you don�t believe in your emotions and you try to scientifically categorize every neuron, pulse, thought, emotion and feeling into nothingness then what do you have? A whole lot of nothing..
So I said to Ed or mind me or someone.. I said..
If an atheist does in fact say he believes in emotions then he is living a fantasy also.. Because deep down him knows they mean nothing,,
so he knows deep down love has no meaning..
So if it�s ok for an atheist to live in denial why isn�t it ok for a theist to do the same? There is no evidence on many neurological things to prove emotions, thoughts, consciousness etc.. But we live in denial everyday
but its seems most closed minded people don�t want to know about what others think because that�s not how they think so its wrong..
Now we get into racism, xenophobia and a ton of others.. Forget that..
thousands of years, millions of books, millions of testimonies, 2008 and billions of people believing and we still dont have winner..
one thing is for sure.. mans desire to believe is far greater than any need for evidence.,,. end of the day! go with your GUT! |
One thing I want to say before disagreeing: your way of expressing yourself is becoming much more intelligible and easy to interact with. I am not trying to patronize you. I just appreciate the change in tone and thoughtfulness.
Now on to emotions......
Where do you believe yours come from if not from neurological processes? Does your love, anger, envy, etc come from somewhere outside of your own brain? And more importantly (please focus on this question), do you really think it is more reasonable that your emotions are derived from an oversoul or some such thing, or from your brain?
If the theist's and atheist's emotions, desires, intuitions all come from the same source (i.e. the brain), how can you call the atheist's emotions, desires, intuitions basically meaningless while calling the theist's inherently meaningful?
In other words, love is love is love. The theist's love is no different in category or source than the atheist's, correct?
Peace |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Ignoring the logic of my posts indicates tacit acceptance... 
You're basically all a bunch of phonies (although I'll cut "itaewonguy" some slack 'cause his dna goes back to Armenia ... )
"seoulunitarian" was more interesting when he posted about communicating with extraterrestials ...  |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Where do you believe yours come from if not from neurological processes? Does your love, anger, envy, etc come from somewhere outside of your own brain? And more importantly (please focus on this question), do you really think it is more reasonable that your emotions are derived from an oversoul or some such thing, or from your brain?
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my emotions are all part of my body just like yours..
nothing about my brain, processes are different to yours..
I believing in the possiblity of a god doesn't mean my emotions or soul are in touch with angels or being controled by them..
we are all the same and all our bodies work the same..
| Quote: |
If the theist's and atheist's emotions, desires, intuitions all come from the same source (i.e. the brain), how can you call the atheist's emotions, desires, intuitions basically meaningless while calling the theist's inherently meaningful?
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this is a huge question.
Ok well I don�t think the atheist�s emotions are meaningless btw you said that not me..
But I believe if you think that way then theists� emotions are also meaningless ..
So I believe the opposite to be true..
I think our emotions, desires, intuitions etc.. All have a will.. All have a will to grow, function, and live! It�s all part of natures plan isn�t it.. Every thing grows! Even the universe!
So if you believe that we have no will, have no meaning, have no course
Then the very first spark which ignited all of this had no meaning. And I find that hard to believe because everything needs a meaning,or will..
Then I find natural selection hard to swallow..
If we told ourselves that we are meaningless and we have no purpose I find it hard that evolution would have gotten us this far.
From the beginning of time man has looked up at the stars and looked for answers! To ask someone bigger than he is.. We meditate to search for answers all things have a meaning all things have a purpose. Our mind is growing and our desire to live forever maybe makes us grow we have a will to live.
You asking a question has a purpose and a meaning
Your DNA has a purpose and the amino acid has a purpose to combine with the protein.
So why doesn�t our emotions? It seems our purpose to live is to grow right?
That means we have will. All our chemicals in our body work together to grow.. Every thing has its part and grows to survive and live on, we live on by passing on DNA or genes etc.. So what about the brain? Why should only organs and genes etc only have a will and purpose? We love we hate, we desire because those emotions are calling out to be used! They all want to grow! The world is capable of loving each other!
The world is also capable of killing each other.. Emotions want to grow! They have a will and are powerful..
Now of course I don�t have the answers to there being a god!.. But there are countless probabilities of what our god is. One off the top of my head let me seeee.
OK im off topic now....
Perhaps our god is just a governor of this universe! And he answers to another god! And he to another. As all living things on earth answer to something and work off another to survive. The ultimate question is who made the first??? Well its impossible to even conceive of him because he is so great and almighty as is this universe we live in we just cant mathematical comprehend his existence but im sure if we had the know how it would make sense.. Now of course that�s an example im just saying. I look at scientists and read their books and they are all confused when confronted with the impossible.. cosmology is to intense for me right now to grasp maybe 20 years or so from now Ill give it a try.. but how do you comprehend with endless!?
And I ask myself the universe is endless right? ... ENDLESS...
Now in an endless universe with black holes, quasars, and event horizons
Then who knows what is out there And what goes on in the very core of our brain!
It seems our mind is endless too and expanding right?
Now skeptics could say nothing is in a black hole! And others would say well..
The past is in there.. The universe is such a complex thing where everything and anything is possible. Endless?? Think about that for a second�endless
our minds are endless and everything can be endless...
All is possible!
except of a powerful thing controlling it. Why is that??
Because we cant see it?? we are all afraid of the unknown
Damn I have gone way off track.. I must be bored hahahaa
Hahaahaha sorry
But yeah to finish off.. I don�t know about brain processes or their meanings how can we know for sure and their is no way to do an experiment to know for sure.. how do you do a test on will?
Because it�s all just a wild guess isn�t. Our only ability is to try and understand and comprehend what we can reach inside our minds and everything we can see about what is real to us and not..
| Quote: |
| In other words, love is love is love. The theist's love is no different in category or source than the atheist's, correct? |
thats right.. we are all have the same emotions and use them the same
its just our ideas of how they work which conflict.. |
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