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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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 Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
Mix1
1. You are backing away from it. You said never, then changed it to some. That's not the same thing. Not even close. I have no idea if ppl are spanking less now... but I didn't make the claim, did I?
| Mix1 wrote: |
| The youngest kids have NEVER been spanked or harshly punished and have no fear of adults or consequences. |
2. See, here's we've got what's part of the problem here. You've got some people who are saying there is room for a structured CP in the system, and then you've got others who enjoy tossing out arguments for smacking kids (or even their parents). Should we all go around smacking people who say things we don't like?
3. No, I'm confortable with a school system that does not beat my child. How many times do I have to type that in this thread?
4. So you have NO experience parenting, yet seek to give advice on the subject. Got it. 
5. We agree that the students should not run the schools. I don't think anyone on here is proposing that.
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I'm over the numbers game, but...
1. I am not backing away from the general idea that kids are spanked less than before and have to deal with harsh punishment less as well. I already said I amended the word NEVER in the last post: nice detective work, but it's a bit slow. If you feel the need to earn more brownie points by continually parsing semantics and re-quoting me, go right ahead.
2. That one's all over the map, but I'll say this: the possibility of getting "smacked" is a major deterrent. It's one reason many generally don't mouth off in the first place. Now, if you take that possibility completely off the table, many people (kids included) are naturally going to be a lot more disrespectful. SHOULD people go around smacking each other if they don't like what is said? Ideally, no. Hopefully, you could instill an inherent respect in them based on consideration for others, but that wouldn't work for everyone.
As for the punching the parents thing, that was mostly in jest and not very realistic, but it seems you didn't get that. The main point was that the parents sometimes come up short and share some blame here too.
3. ---
4. Back to this. Maybe you feel empowered because you had a kid, but it didn't automatically make you smarter than non-parents or give you more rights than others. Again, plenty of crappy parents out there.
If some guy spoils his kid rotten and lets her scream at people passing by, or another locks his kid in a cage and feeds her three twinkies a day, do you think they could claim they're experts on anything just because they are "parents"? "Shaddup, you know nothing. I'm a parent!" No. Now probably you wouldn't do that, but the point is that a parent can easily be wrong.
I don't think I offered any specific "advice" so that seems a straw man to me, but even if I did (and maybe you'll find something to twist around), just being a parent does not automatically garner respect, seeing as how anyone with a reproductive system can do it.
Being a GOOD parent, that's a different matter. And by good, I mean someone who can, at minimum, control their own kids and instill some discipline and respect into them so that they aren't a burden or harm to others, etc.
As for specifics, I don't care how they do it, whether that's a lecture on feelings, or a quick spanking with a warning, I don't really care, but either way I'm entitled to an opinion, especially since the bad decisions of parents affect society at large.
If parents suddenly start repeatedly churning out disrespectful brats who don't adhere to rules or respect authority, then they need to be taken to task on that to some degree, because teachers can't do everything, especially in today's regulatory environment.
5. --- |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:43 am Post subject: |
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You call it semantics, I call it holding you accountable for your claims. You've claimed that Korean kids NEVER get hit nowadays. You've also said that parents are mostly negligent - these are YOUR words! And your advice on it all? CP - it puts a "solid line in the sand".
Dodge and weave all ya like - the quote and words are there.
| Mix1 wrote: |
The youngest kids have NEVER been spanked or harshly punished and have no fear of adults or consequences. I've heard plenty of Korean teachers complaining about the kids now and how they have zero discipline and zero respect or fear of adults and they just mouth off all the time, and how that never used to happen, and if it did, they'd have been smacked or told off by the adults.
C.P. may not be perfect, but it puts a solid line in the sand about the rules, and as to who is in charge, and it's CERTAINLY better than letting the inmates run the asylum, which is what is happening now.
Yes, we COULD take it out of schools and try to let the parents handle the discipline, but they are mostly negligent too. Most parents here seem to not make the kids do ANYTHING against their wills, including basic household chores, and they are also failing to teach basic manners of conduct. It is similar "back home" with some slight differences.
So we can't really count on the parents, and the teachers now can't do anything either, so it's a double whammy. You have a whole generation of untouchable, princes and princesses running around who have little idea what respect or discipline is, and today's 'modern' parents unleashed them. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| I was raised in the north of England, 30 plus years ago, by an ex pit worker whos job was 'debt collection'. I have had my fair share of beatings from my parents, to the point where i didnt think anything of violence and was almost incarcerated more than once for almost killing people (once for smashing someones head off a wall and another time for for punching someone in the throat, repeatedly). |
You're describing violence, not discipline as embodied by corporal punishment.
The two are not the same and as I experienced them, not even similar.
When I recieved the cane at school, or was either spanked or hit by my parents as a child/ teenager, there was no malice in it. They meant me no harm. Quite the opposite, I had forced them into the last resort in their effort to correct me- for my own good. In the case of my parents, dicipline was dealt out of love. They didn't want me to take drugs or whatever other dumb things I tried as a teenager. I pushed them to their limits and forced them to knock sense into me. Ididn't respect them less, I respected them more.
Parts of northern England hardly represents a caring community with moral values. Its a grim existence- particularly on the council estates- and the culture is extremely negative. Violence is celebrated, boys are raised to be "hard" and that is their only preoccupation. Apart from spending all their wages on alcahol and trying to shag their neighbours wife. Their lives are empty, they have nothing but watching football or coronation street and signing on the dole. Its pitiful.
The sort of random street violence that grows in that deprived environment is entirely different from the discipline I described earlier. It is simply bored and mindless people out to bully, victimise or commit crime.
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| I came from a generation of teachers, peers and parents that used physical force as a way of articulating just about everything. |
That is strange because I also spent a few years at school in the north of england and my teachers were rarely physically violent. If they were they would have gotten sued or jailed.
If your parents hit you for trivial reasons, when drunk or simply used you as a punch bag, then that is abuse. That comes under the category of violence, it is not discipline. It doesn't have your wellbeing as its aim. See what I'm saying? |
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le-paul
Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Location: dans la chambre
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:11 am Post subject: |
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cp was made illegal in 1987 and later for private schools. Im 40.
you seem like a man of the world with your almost 'autistic like' photographic, social observations, I'm sure you can figure out why i got cp and you didnt?
yes, was for your own good, haha, i can almost hear you saying that to your gf as you spank her for talking back to you 
"Its -spank-for-spank-your-spank-own-good! Its for your own GOOD! SPANK"
(incidentally, im using your term 'spank' for hitting, i find the term a little risqué personally). |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| le-paul wrote: |
| I'm sure you can figure out why i got cp and you didnt? |
Was it because of your mental deficiency?
Julius, your first post of this personal insult was removed. Yet, you post it again. That is two direct violations of the TOS. Continued posting of this nature will result in actions taken against your posting privileges on Dave's ESL Cafe.
Koharski |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| le-paul wrote: |
| I'm sure you can figure out why i got cp and you didnt? |
Was it because of your mental deficiency?
Julius, your first post of this personal insult was removed. Yet, you post it again. That is two direct violations of the TOS. Continued posting of this nature will result in actions taken against your posting privileges on Dave's ESL Cafe.
Koharski |
Somebody needs a time-out.  |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
You call it semantics, I call it holding you accountable for your claims. You've claimed that Korean kids NEVER get hit nowadays. You've also said that parents are mostly negligent - these are YOUR words! And your advice on it all? CP - it puts a "solid line in the sand".
Dodge and weave all ya like - the quote and words are there.
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 Wow...
You're really struggling if you have to re-quote the same old quote TWICE, even after I told you TWICE that I agree the word "never" was too absolute and amended the statement. I owned up to the statement (obviously impossible to prove they are never spanked anymore), but still explained I stand by the same general sentiment that they are spanked less. But here you are still parsing the same semantics and chasing yesterday's news...
Then, you try to condense everything I said into a random chosen quote about C.P. putting a "solid line in the sand" ... which of course it does. Seems like you're just hammering at random nails and parsing language at this point at this point. Got it. Let's agree to disagree on this then. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Nah, look at what you said after I challenged your assertion
| Quote: |
| 1. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Actually, there are probably some that still get spanked, but it's not as common as before. The newest generation is being coddled like never before in this country, and that doesn't take a survey to figure out. How do I think I know? Past employment in adult teaching and teacher training for one thing, in which they virtually all say similar things about discipline methods. If they are doing much spanking, they are either not admitting to it, or lying about it. |
That's not backing away from it. That's putting the onus on me to try to disprove your assertion.
You were wrong in your claim, as you've been wrong in many things in this thread.
If you're not big enough to admit that, then so be it.
I also take issue with quotes like this
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| If I say something rude to someone's face or call them a name, I expect that I may get smacked as well, so why not a kid? Are they on some untouchable level of existence? No, they are people too, who have to learn to mind their manners |
You honestly hold a child to the same standard as an adult? Are they able to defend themselves like an adult?
Let's take your hypothetical. You say something rude, someone smacks ya. You then have two options - hit them back, or go to the police. Or, I guess a third - do nothing.
What option does a kid have? Are they able to make the same informed, conscious choices an adult can make?
The fact is, you've NEVER raised a child. You're NOT a parent. Yet you figure you know more about it than someone who is. Someday, when you do have a kid, you may think back to this phrase and remember it - until you have a kid, you really don't know. You can try to imagine what it's like, but you don't know until you actually do it. |
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EZE
Joined: 05 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| until you have a kid, you really don't know. |
If all people with children know, then why are their positions often so radically different on the issue?
For example, my parents raised three children from infancy to adulthood. My mother taught high school for four decades and my father taught high school math in the '60s and '70s. Their opinions about corporal punishment are very different from yours even though you're also a parent with teaching experience.
If having a kid makes a person know, then Angel Adams of Tampa should be considered one of the foremost experts since she has 15 kids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feVbZX8lVvo |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:20 am Post subject: |
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You're missing the point. The point is NOt having different positions on this matter. I've already stated that there is a divide amongst parents. The point is that when you don't have a kid, your judgements and reasoning are different.
As a parent, my #1 priority in life is protecting my kid. Teaching, mentoring, sculpting... all of that is there, but if I cannot ensure the kid's safety, it doesn't matter.
As a single person... perhaps a young teacher teaching overseas for the first time, your first priority is not my kid's safety. Not once has it been mentioned here. But NUMEROUS times posters here have talked about order, discipline, and control.
It's a VERY different mindset.
The parents I know that do support CP, do so with love in their hearts. I've not heard one iota of love from any of these posters - talking about smacking kids. smacking their parents. Calling them inmates.
So yeah, parents differ on this issue, but they're coming at it from the same direction. The disgusting examples of abuse we've seen mentioned on here are NOT coming from any sort of love. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| You honestly hold a child to the same standard as an adult? Are they able to defend themselves like an adult? |
Punishment is necesarily something a person is unable to "defend themselves" from. You don't send a criminal to jail on the understanding that they have the ability to escape.
You seem to be mis-characterizing cp onto the same level as street fighting or mugging. Are the two protagonists in a bar fight looking out for eachothers long-term well-being? Trying to help eachother into improving eachothers academic performance? You seem to have a complete misunderstanding of what discipline is motivated by.
.........Additionally I think some of your concerns stems from the fact that (AFAIK) you have one daughter.
Of course fathers are extra protective of daughters, and parents are over- protective if they are focussed exclusively only one child.
Also you should know that CP should never be the same for girls as it is for boys, due to basic anatomical concerns. They shouldn't get caned, at most just a ruler to the hand or arm. Its a short sharp shock designed to stop kids from acting up. I don't think anyone is advocating "beating" girls with sticks or fists.
| Quote: |
The fact is, you've NEVER raised a child. You're NOT a parent.
.....until you have a kid, you really don't know. |
As a parent of one child you are obviously too emotionally invested to view things objectively or dispassionately.
If anything it is qualified professionals with many years experience of caring for tens or hundreds of children every day that are likely to know more about childcare than you, wether they are parents or not. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:50 am Post subject: |
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hahaha
So because I only have ONE child, and it's a girl, I'm not able to decide the matter??
That's fooked, man.
Here, let me break it down to you as simple as possible - you have no right to hit me, or my child. I'm able to defend myself as a grown man, my child is not. My job is to defend my child.
The current law of this land supports my stance on this. If you feel some perverse need to hit the buttocks of children, I suggest you seek help.
The problem here is NOT that I'm emotionally invested in this topic, it's that most of the posters here are not. You'd be more invested if it was you or yours being beaten. |
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Died By Bear
Joined: 13 Jul 2010
Location: On the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Is anyone willing to claim that CP is NEVER and I mean NEVER effective?
Going to throw this out there again. As I said, its a lot like torture. Barbaric, often ineffective and unreliable, and can engender massive resentment. But torture, like CP, sometime does "work". But CP should be rarely used and done safely. |
I'm curious what kind outcome complete and total segregation (in Korean schools) of the more aggressive ones from the rest of the students 8-16 would be? Do you think we'd see sub-groups form within the new groups where new bad guys would emerge as bullies, or would everything go nicely? |
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like an industry has been created out of the desire to stop bullying.
http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013/07/113_138683.html
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Paid adult bullies that hit school bullies “School violence, alienation, bullying...a meager response only yields more severe violence. Stop worrying by yourself and call us! We will help you.”
Kim, 52, a middle school teacher in Songpa district, was shocked upon seeing a flyer plastered onto a telephone pole in front of a school on June 24.
On a sheet of A4 paper was an article about severe school violence and a caption that read, "Call us. We solved school violence." At the bottom of the flyer was a phone number. Kim called the number and revealed his occupation as a teacher to the person on the other line, asking him, "How is it that you can possibly end school violence?" "The school has nothing to do with this matter," the stranger responded before hanging up. "I was worried that strangers would threaten and physically hurt students, so I passed on the flyer to the police," Kim said.
Seoul Metropolitan Police Agency said that they are investigating the origin of the flyers and tracking down people responsible for posting them. The police, though cautious about pressing charges against anyone yet, are considering the possibility of errand-running companies or private detective agencies having been paid to hurt teenagers.
Not only are there no reports of assaults yet, but also a flyer claiming to "contribute toward ending school violence" is insufficient to punish anyone. "If errand-running companies and private detective agencies are involved, then they must have gathered information about students' whereabouts illegally. We are planning to expand investigation on their potential breach of laws on use and protection of individuals' personal information," police affiliates said.
The special service these intimidating chaps provide is a well-kept secret that parents living in Gangnam are well acquainted with. Nine out of ten errand-running companies in metropolitan areas “get the most requests to resolve school violence after those to investigate reports of adultery,” according to the Chosun Ilbo. "We will send over a gangster or body guard right away," they said.
Pay varies from 150,000 won to 25 million won. Some "problem solvers" offer a second round of service.
Company H in Gangnam, where a former police investigative chief works, demands 25 million won prior to and after service. “There’s no need to cause unnecessary uproar by kidnapping or killing the bully. It’s not our first time doing something like this,” company S in Gangnam said. “If there’s any problem, we’re willing to offer a second round of service.”
Some "problem solving" agencies are even willing to create an uproar at school. "It takes a big ruckus to resolve school violence. If you abruptly cause a stir in the middle of class, there is nothing anyone can do about it,” a company in Yongsan district of Seoul said. "We barged into the cafeteria one day and told the teachers that their incompetence is the reason for our sudden presence. The school could not even call on us."
In a blog post, a mother of a middle school student wrote, "I'm withdrawing money that I saved by not buying any clothes and not eating to pay an errand-running company." "What is there a mother would possibly not do for a son, who attempted suicide after experiencing school violence? I hate using violence to end violence, but I learned that kids must be reprimanded with the same sticks that they use to hit their peers.”
Park, 51, parent to a seventh grade son, said, "Calling the police doesn't help, since the perpetrator is underage and therefore, free from any official punishment. Paying the "problem solvers" to avenge the harm done to my kid would make him a perpetrator, so I ultimately could not put my thoughts into action."
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dairyairy
Joined: 17 May 2012
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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The special service these intimidating chaps provide is a well-kept secret that parents living in Gangnam are well acquainted with. Nine out of ten errand-running companies in metropolitan areas “get the most requests to resolve school violence after those to investigate reports of adultery,” according to the Chosun Ilbo. "We will send over a gangster or body guard right away," they said.
Pay varies from 150,000 won to 25 million won. Some "problem solvers" offer a second round of service.
Company H in Gangnam, where a former police investigative chief works, demands 25 million won prior to and after service. “There’s no need to cause unnecessary uproar by kidnapping or killing the bully. It’s not our first time doing something like this,” company S in Gangnam said. “If there’s any problem, we’re willing to offer a second round of service.”
Some "problem solving" agencies are even willing to create an uproar at school. "It takes a big ruckus to resolve school violence. If you abruptly cause a stir in the middle of class, there is nothing anyone can do about it,” a company in Yongsan district of Seoul said. "We barged into the cafeteria one day and told the teachers that their incompetence is the reason for our sudden presence. The school could not even call on us."
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This is probably happening right in front of some of you and you don't have a clue. Picture some 23 year old blonde teaching in her first semester singing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" when the class gets a visit from the "Enforcer."
BTW, if they "create an uproar" between classes, no one will know the difference. |
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