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blondebecky
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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 Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| bjonothan wrote: |
You people have yourselves to blame for your present situation. If I was to hear you *beep* saying this stuff in public I would probably have you on the ground spitting out teeth for generalising about whites and calling us racist in this way.
I support people who help themselves and despise lowlife tossers like some of you blacks that blame us for everything.
Atleast for you blacks that are from North America, if you don't like living there because of the bad white people, you could always go back to your former *beep* homeland and see how life turns out. |
I can't address some of the issues raised about slavery/segregation in the US etc, as I've never lived there or studied American history.
However, Bjonathan, as a fellow Australian who has worked with Aboriginal people (unlike you, I'm willing to guess), I can comment about some of the points you have raised.
Firstly, why are you addressing people as "you blacks"?? If you were to say the word "black", let alone address a set of people as "you blacks" in anywhere in Sydney beyond the crappy Western suburbs, you would be ignored and despised as a complete and utter bigot.
I am an (Anglo-Saxon/Celtic) Australian, however I've had first-hand experience working with Aboriginal people through my old job with a government department, where I worked as a legal advisor.
Despite your protests, Aboriginals are even disadvantaged in metropolitan areas - the vast majority of employers (no matter what PC garbage they post on their websites) will not even consider employing an Aboriginal person. That's why affirmative action programmes still exist in Australia.
At any rate, as you would be aware, Aboriginals only won the right to vote and live as full members of our society some 40 years ago. A large proportion of middle aged Aboriginals were also forcibly taken from their mothers and placed with white families to work as unpaid servants. The legacy of this "stolen generation" has been the loss of Aboriginal cultural identity, the loss of a cohesive family unit.
Even more disturbingly I notice that you failed to mention anything about the plight of rural Aboriginals - the majority of them have:
(a) no access to health care
(b) no access to an education beyond the primary school level
and they are the only people in Asutralia who still suffer from such diseases as polio, leprosy etc. The Australian Government (which is headed by John Howard - soon to be voted out, hurray!) could care less about the plight of these underpriviliged people. They devote 20 times as much money to programs subsidising private school fees for the rich than on programs to improve the quality of life of Australia's original inhabitants. Did you know that Australia has been censured in relation to this issue not only by human rights groups such as Amnesty International, but also by the UN itself?? |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Blondebecky,
This might be a bit off topic, but what are your thoughts on elders like Noel Pearson whose views are that years of welfarism have failed the Murri, Koori and Nunga peoples and it's time for a dose of shock therapy and self help? Personally, having lived in aboriginal areas and being associated with leaders of their communities in a former job, I think he is on the right track. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Why shouldn't people be able to call them black? Is it any worse than calling someone white? |
Yeah, it's funny though that I never actually had the need to call anyone 'white' or 'foreigner' before coming here. Before this it was just, 'He's that guy with the long hair' or something. To distinguish people was never an issue of the color of skins. It was always done in a manner of who they were or at most their nationality/culture background. Maybe we'd say, 'He's Maori, or, He's Samoan, but not 'Black and not 'White.'
I guess this just highlights another difference between the States and New Zealand - If you haven't guessed I consider the latter more advanced in this regard.
PS: When I first heard it it was some young guys at work talk about a fellow teacher as a 'white guy,' I was taken back. I said, 'so what are you, a gook?'
It became quite a scene.
Last edited by Cheonmunka on Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bjonothan
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Location: All over the place
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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As much as I feel bad for what happened to the Aboriginals, they still don't get off their arses to do things which shits me that we pay so much money for that. You can talk about the stolen generation and other setbacks as much as you want, you still don't address why they are lazier than us and feel sorry for themselves. I don't think they are terribly disadvantaged compared to anyone else.
I was kicked out of home when I was young and had everything taken from me by my adopted mother and still managed to survive. Sure, it would be easier for me because I am white, right? Maybe. But I still kept going and made a life for myself. I don't sit around and cry about all of the disadvantages I had. I look at the advantages.
The Aboriginal people get paid more than us to do nothing, they get free schooling and some jobs are only open to Aboriginal people.
I went through the rural areas and worked for a couple of years and lived and worked with a lot of Aboriginals. They have the same health care as us, sometimes even better. I needed to see a doctor one day and because I am white, was refused. That was in Robinvale, Vic.
Maybe I shouldn't have put all "Blacks" in the same category. My point was that most of them feel sorry for them and contribute to the high levels of crime instead of getting out and contributing to society.
The top Aborigine in Australia was just found guilty of gang raping women as a young fella. The reason they are still living a crap life is because they choose that by the lifestyle they lead.
Not having access to healthcare and an education beyond primary school is just not true. And if one of them wanted to study in Uni. do you think the Uni. would have the balls to knock back and Aborigine?
I worked in the Isa for a while and I met a cool Aborigine that was university educated. He was my boss. He wasn't from a rich family, but he had drive. They are the kind of people I like. Ones that get off their arse and make their miserable lives better. Up until 40 years ago, they could blame whites for their problems, but today they get more than us and I have no sympathy for the ones who choose to take the easy way out and sit around and complain about their situation.
And the funny thing is that most of the Australian population agree with me. |
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blondebecky
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
Blondebecky,
This might be a bit off topic, but what are your thoughts on elders like Noel Pearson whose views are that years of welfarism have failed the Murri, Koori and Nunga peoples and it's time for a dose of shock therapy and self help? Personally, having lived in aboriginal areas and being associated with leaders of their communities in a former job, I think he is on the right track. |
Not off topic at all, it's an interesting point.
To some extent, I agree with Pearson's views. I think that issuing no-strings-attached welfare has resulted in a large proportion of the Aboriginal population becoming dependant on these handouts, and I believe welfare is not the solution to the problems which exist in rural Aboriginal communities. I agree that issuing food stamps etc is better than giving money to drug and alcohol dependant mothers, who will often use the money to feed their addictions, as opposed to feeding their malnourished children.
However, although I agree that unconditional welfare is not an appropriate solution, and that it's time that people took responsibility for their lives, I believe that more has to be done to attack the root causes of the inequality that exists between the quality of life enjoyed by white Australians such as you or I, and the quality of life of (particularly) rural dwelling Aboriginals.
The Government should be investing more money in establishing quality healthcare, education and training centres particularly in Western NSW and the Northern Territory. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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I agree a little with what the post above is saying about people getting off their bums to be self-reliant. I've got another rhetorical question for you. Would you like to work for the 'white man' in the 'white man's system knowing that less than 60 years ago some of his grandparents were using your grandparents, fathers and mothers as target practice?
Maybe there's a reason for such despondency and depression in their communities. |
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blondebecky
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| bjonothan wrote: |
I was kicked out of home when I was young and had everything taken from me by my adopted mother and still managed to survive. Sure, it would be easier for me because I am white, right? Maybe. But I still kept going and made a life for myself. I don't sit around and cry about all of the disadvantages I had. I look at the advantages.
The Aboriginal people get paid more than us to do nothing, they get free schooling and some jobs are only open to Aboriginal people.
I went through the rural areas and worked for a couple of years and lived and worked with a lot of Aboriginals. They have the same health care as us, sometimes even better. I needed to see a doctor one day and because I am white, was refused. That was in Robinvale, Vic.
Maybe I shouldn't have put all "Blacks" in the same category. My point was that most of them feel sorry for them and contribute to the high levels of crime instead of getting out and contributing to society.
The top Aborigine in Australia was just found guilty of gang raping women as a young fella. The reason they are still living a crap life is because they choose that by the lifestyle they lead.
Not having access to healthcare and an education beyond primary school is just not true. And if one of them wanted to study in Uni. do you think the Uni. would have the balls to knock back and Aborigine?
I worked in the Isa for a while and I met a cool Aborigine that was university educated. He was my boss. He wasn't from a rich family, but he had drive. They are the kind of people I like. Ones that get off their arse and make their miserable lives better. Up until 40 years ago, they could blame whites for their problems, but today they get more than us and I have no sympathy for the ones who choose to take the easy way out and sit around and complain about their situation.
And the funny thing is that most of the Australian population agree with me. |
Have you ever been to far West NSW, northern WA or the Northern Territory? Aboriginals live in the most remote districts of these areas, and they don't have access to health care or education there. Remote towns in NT don't have high schools, and doctors often only visit once a month.
Get more than us?? Are you talking about $40 extra a week that an unemployed Aboriginal person gets in welfare?
I'm sorry that you've had a tough life, and it's fantastic that you've succeeded in spite of some very difficult odds. However, maybe the things you have gone through should encourage you to have a little bit more empathy for other underpriviliged members of society.
With respect to your comment that the bulk of the Australian population would agree with your views on this issue, I have to disagree. Perhaps people living in Western Sydney, or in "the Shire" or country folk would agree with dyou, but the bulk of middle Australia would not. Like it or not, John Howard and his ilk have lost their popularity, and I'm thankful that Australia is gradually becoming more tolerant of minorities. |
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bjonothan
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Location: All over the place
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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How much brainpower does it take to figure out that the only way to improve the way of life for yourself and your family is to work?
It is a fact of life that if you don't work, you starve. Or live off government money like a lot of Aboriginal people are. Who wants to work because it is fun? How many people work because they realise they will run out of money if they don't? As the North Americans would call it, it's a no brainer. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| My point was that most of them feel sorry for them and contribute to the high levels of crime instead of getting out and contributing to society. |
Remember that the first mass murders on the land were done by Europeans and go from there ...
And with that remember that the early cultures had long memories.
In present day there it's more the Meditteranean people and the SEA's who proliferate crime.
The police, too, still hound any Aboriginal people walking around town. It's a fact that they are targeted still. |
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bjonothan
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Location: All over the place
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Well I also disagree blondebecky. I have met very few non-Aboriginal people that really give two hoots for the plight of the Aboriginal people because most see it as their own making.
Furthermore, they see us being here as an excuse to complain and not being where they want as an excuse to compain. It is just not feasible to send a full time doctor to an area way out in the middle of nowhere because they want to live there. Who would take that kind of job? keep it realistic.
Would the government send out a full time doctor to look after me if I decided to live in the dead centre of Australia?
I lived in Bourke for a few months. The aboriginal people were out of control. They tried to kill some Koreans that I was with by ripping the brake lines out of their car. Not only that but there was an Aboriginal side of town that no whites dared to go. All of the shops had big shutters on the front to stop the Aboriginals from smashing the windows.
I have had more than enough exposure to the Aboriginal population to see what they are all about and to make my own judgements on their situation.
I have no sympathy for people that can't help themself. That is the product of my life. I made everything I have and owe nobody nothing.
When something bad happens to me, I spend a day feeling sorry for myself and the rest of the time to takes to make things better. Aboriginals have spent a couple of generations feeling sorry for themselves. I can't get my mind around that no matter how long I try.
Last edited by bjonothan on Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bjonothan
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Location: All over the place
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Cheonmunka, aren't you a kiwi?
How long were you in Australia for?
Have you ever lived among them to see for yourself?
Do you think we pick on the Aboriginal people as a sport or something? |
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blondebecky
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| bjonothan wrote: |
Well I also disagree blondebecky. I have met very few non-Aboriginal people that really give two hoots for the plight of the Aboriginal people because most see it as their own making.
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It is just not feasible to send a full time doctor to an area way out in the middle of nowhere because they want to live there. Who would take that kind of job? keep it realistic.
Would the government send out a full time doctor to look after me if I decided to live in the dead centre of Australia?
I lived in Bourke for a few months. The aboriginal people were out of control. They tried to kill some Koreans that I was with by ripping the brake lines out of their car. Not only that but there was an Aboriginal side of town that no whites dared to go. All of the shops had big shutters on the front to stop the Aboriginals from smashing the windows.
I have had more than enough exposure to the Aboriginal population to see what they are all about and to make my own judgements on their situation.
I have no sympathy for people that can't help themself. That is the product of my life. I made everything I have and owe nobody nothing.
When something bad happens to me, I spend a day feeling sorry for myself and the rest of the time to takes to make things better. Aboriginals have spent a couple of generations feeling sorry for themselves. I can't get my mind around that no matter how long I try. |
BJonathan, get over your feeling of moral superiority. A few isolated incidents in your life involving Aboriginals (incidents not even directed at you!) and you feel justified in making sweeping generalisations about them?
I can't believe that you think Aboriginals living in remote areas don't have a right to the same standard of health care you do - as I said before, these people do not have access to either health care or a proper education. How then could they simply transplant themselves from their homes to a city, without a job or anything else to rely on?
You seem to forget that they were Australia's original inhabitants. We weren't. As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't resent a few measly tax dollars being spent on the poorest segment of our population, who happen to be the only "real Australians".
You responses are overly emotional and aren't based on anything other than anecdotal evidence. I can only assume that you are very young (fresh out of uni) and have yet to build a bit of life experience.
As I said before, I think it's fantastic that you have moved beyond the problems in your childhood, however not all people have that strength. |
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newton kabiddles
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| We should allow African-Americans to open up a tax-free casino in Harlem. "Earthquake Live! at The Polyester Palace Hotel and Casino" |
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bjonothan
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Location: All over the place
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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I don't feel superior other than the fact that I can get up and do what it takes to survive.
If I was to move out into the country where nobody lived, the government wouldn't help me either. It is all about having the brainpower to do what is good for yourself and your family. I don't have a few isolated incidents with Aboriginals, I worked with them, lived with them for quite some time. I tend to overgeneralise at times, I agree. That is my character.
However, you can't follow people out into the bush and provide a full time doctor because people choose to live hours from most towns. Be realistic.
Why would they need a job before they move to the city or even a country town where there is a doctor? Would they have one if they lived way out in the bush?
I couldn't give two hoots if they are our original inhabitants or not. I want an equal society for everyone. My family has been here since the 1800s and I believe that we all should receive the same. They complained they were treated badly, and now there are complaints about being treated equally. Actually, in my opinion, they are treated better.
I am not emotional, and my opinions are based on real life experience that anyone who spent any decent amount of time in Australia would know. I am in my 30s. Is that very young? I have travelled Asia, owned businesses and lived in a lot of places around Australia. More than you I would guess. |
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blondebecky
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| bjonothan wrote: |
If I was to move out into the country where nobody lived, the government wouldn't help me either. It is all about having the brainpower to do what is good for yourself and your family. I don't have a few isolated incidents with Aboriginals, I worked with them, lived with them for quite some time. I tend to overgeneralise at times, I agree. That is my character.
However, you can't follow people out into the bush and provide a full time doctor because people choose to live hours from most towns. Be realistic.
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I couldn't give two hoots if they are our original inhabitants or not. I want an equal society for everyone. My family has been here since the 1800s and I believe that we all should receive the same. They complained they were treated badly, and now there are complaints about being treated equally. Actually, in my opinion, they are treated better.
I am not emotional, and my opinions are based on real life experience that anyone who spent any decent amount of time in Australia would know. I am in my 30s. Is that very young? I have travelled Asia, owned businesses and lived in a lot of places around Australia. More than you I would guess. |
Ok, I'll bite. Although I'm younger than you - still in my (late) twenties, my ex boyfriend and I entered a graduate program that entailed working in various parts of rural Australia for two years. I've lived in remote areas of the NT and Western NSW, although I've spent most of my life in Sydney. I lived in Canada for the first 5 years of my life, but I consider myself an Australian.
While I was working in the NT and in western NSW (including Broken Hill and Dubbo) I was confronted for the first time in my life with the real poverty that still exists in Aboriginal communities. It was shocking, and it changed my views on race issues in Australia forever.
You're right, the government probably wouldn't help you if you moved to a part of rural Australia. However, you aren't one of the original owners and inhabitants of the country, and therein lies the distinction.
BTW I believe that many young doctors would be willing to work with Aboriginal communities if sufficient funds were invested in attracting them to working in remote areas.
At any rate, we've veered off topic from the OP's original point with this discussion. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. |
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