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CyberGuy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea
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 Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
If you think I'm going to sit through a 2 hour propaganda video for your desert cult you're very much mistaken.
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Again, for people like bigverne who have IQ below 10: This video gives equal amount of time to both of the parties, i.e. the professor who is accusing Muhammad of false Prophethood vs. the student who is defending Muhammad as a true Prophet.
To bigverne: You sir, are full of s**t.
The video I posted contained a "debate" and not a monologue by some Muslim fanatic.
CG. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Your reaction to Mohammed sanctioning the rape of women captured in battle please. |
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Axl Rose
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| BigVerne wrote: |
| It is obvious to everyone that you are the living embodiment of why people don't like Islam. |
You can say that again. He is also the living embodiment of why Muslims are 22% of the world population and produce less than 5% of world GDP. |
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HughCl
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Yes Axel
we all know that Africans are worthless as well being the largest continent and yet so poor! Can't they just figure a way to get around that whole poverty thing and just pull themselves up by the bootstraps so they can live meaningful lives? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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Cyberguy said he would be more comfortable answering these posts in this thread rather than the other, and to that end asked me to post them here, so here they are:
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Cyberguy.
I was glancing at an online Qu'ran (actually looking for that reference to snakes that could hear -- I couldn't find it) and I noticed this:
| Qu'ran wrote: |
[4.92] And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a convenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
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This verse seems to condone slavery, since how can you free a believing slave if believers should not have slaves in the first place? Slaves are mentioned a few other times in passing:
| Qu'ran wrote: |
[2.178] O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
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| Qu'ran wrote: |
[24.32] And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves; if they are needy, Allah will make them free from want out of His grace; and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
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With all of this casual talk of slaves, I am having a hard time finding any passages prohibiting slavery. It seems to me that there is a clear acceptance of slavery in the Qu'ran, and if the Qu'ran is the timeless Word of God, it seems like Islam should as a result endorse slavery even up to the present. Could you talk about this some perhaps? I'd like to hear a Muslim's thoughts on this.
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Cyberguy, I had one other question for you, regarding this statement:
| CyberGuy wrote: |
| Qur'an does not have ANY scientific or logical errors. |
In the Qu'ran, it says:
| Qu'ran wrote: |
[55.14] He created man from dry clay like earthen vessels,
[55.15] And He created the jinn of a flame of fire.
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and:
| Qu'ran wrote: |
[15.26] And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape.
[15.27] And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.
[15.28] And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.
[15.29] So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.
[15.30] So the angels made obeisance, all of them together,
[15.31] But Iblis (did it not); he refused to be with those who made obeisance.
[15.32] He said: O Iblis! what excuse have you that you are not with those who make obeisance?
[15.33] He said: I am not such that I should make obeisance to a mortal whom Thou hast created of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.
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Do you genuinely feel that human beings consisting of dry clay/black mud stands up to scientific scrutiny? It certainly seems to fly in the face of the scientific theory of evolution to me. It also seems to me that the molecular composition of a human body as laid out by current scientific theory doesn't match up very well with the molecules generally present in mud, either in proportion or in type. How does it not conflict with science?
Also, I'm curious as to why Genesis is a "fairytale" but segments like this -- which relate fantastic events like humans being made out of clay and magical Jinn being created out of fire -- don't fall into the same categorization? |
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Axl Rose
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| HughCl wrote: |
we all know that Africans are worthless as well being the largest continent and yet so poor! Can't they just figure a way to get around that whole poverty thing and just pull themselves up by the bootstraps so they can live meaningful lives? |
What on Earth has Africa got to do with what I said, or anything that's been said in the thread?
Idiot |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| CyberGuy wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| - I'm sure we could find a nice spot for him somewhere in one of those. |
I am sure a man from old times would fit you people under the definition of: Narrow-minded intellectual-looking retards who spend most of their time in crawling over internet forums than reading some good history in order to have a bigger picture. The retards who speak before they try to study and know what is being referenced by the person disagreeing with them. People who would say ANYTHING to prove the correctness of their version of morality being perceived from their cockroach holes. |
Funny, because I think that a 'man from old times' would be simply stunned by the internet and its functions. Too stunned in fact to call anyone 'retards'.
Sorry, what was your point again?
Oh, maybe you were trying to point out historical relativism? Well, the way I see it, any religion that claims to be divinely inspired should have the truth behind it - the eternal truth.
If a religion changes its ways or doctrines, it is not divine. |
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CyberGuy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| Axl Rose wrote: |
| HughCl wrote: |
we all know that Africans are worthless as well being the largest continent and yet so poor! Can't they just figure a way to get around that whole poverty thing and just pull themselves up by the bootstraps so they can live meaningful lives? |
What on Earth has Africa got to do with what I said, or anything that's been said in the thread?
Idiot |
The moron must know that it has EVERYTHING to do with Africa. Why? cuz Muslims are not the only "creatures" on earth living under poor conditions. Saudi and Kuwaiti Muslims are rich enough that they not only change their car's models every now an then, but they also have palaces bigger than your pinhead could ever imagine.
Need to mention that these "evil" Saudis have trillions of dollars in the American and other western banks? Need to mention this investment is indirectly nurturing the snakes and scorpions like you? Need to mention you are the scorpions and snakes sucking the benefits of the investment by these "dirty" Arabs while the rest of Muslims are suffering of poverty and your venomous mocking and ridicule?
Why talk about Arfica? there are very very poor Muslim societies same as Africans too.
Furthermore, the moron should know that Islam is not 4 or 5 centuries old. When Muslims were shinning at the sky of science, technology and civilization under Islamic Emirate of Spain, then your European ancestors were busy crawling into the cockroach holes of "The Dark Age". Need not to mention that the Muslims were not mocking and treating nonmuslims as "pieces of s**t"; Why? cuz you have the founder of Israel (David Ben Gurion) saying that the most prosperous era of Jews throughout the history was under the Spanish Empire of Muslims. Now that a damn good witness from the mouth of enemy of Muslims.
After all, where did the Dark Europe got the renaissance from?
1. "No historical student of the culture of Western Europe can ever reconstruct for himself the intellectual values of the later Middle Ages unless he possesses a vivid awareness of Islam looming in the background." (Pierce Butler, "Fifteenth Century of Arabic Authors in Latin Translation, in the McDonald Presentation Volume; Freeport, N.Y., 1933; p.63)
2. "The Arab has left his intellectual impress on Europe, as, before long, Christendom will have to confess; he has indelibly written it on the heavens, as anyone may see who reads the names of the stars on a common celestial globe." (John W. Draper, History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, Harper & Row; Vol.2, 1876 & 1904; p.42)
3. "Because Europe was reacting against Islam it belittled the influence of Saracens [Muslims] and exaggerated its dependence on its Greek and Roman heritage. So today an important task for us is to correct this false emphasis and to acknowledge fully our debt to the Arab and Islamic world" (W. Montgomery Watt, Islamic Surveys: The Influence of Islam on Medieval Europe; Edinburgh, England; 1972; p.84).
4. "One of the hallmarks of civilized man is knowledge of the past - [including]the past of others with whom one's own culture has had repeated and fruitful contact; or the past of any group that has contributed to the ascent of man. The Arabs fit profoundly into both of the latter two categories. But in the West the Arabs are not well known. Victims of ignorance as well as misinformation, they and their culture have often been stigmatized from afar" (John Hayes, The Genius of Arab Civilization: Source of Renaissance; MIT Press, 1983; p. 2)
5. "Too often science in Arabia has been seen as nothing more than a holding operation. The area has been viewed as a giant storehouse for previously discovered scientific results, keeping them until they could be passed on for use in the West. But this is, of course, a travesty of the truth. Certainly the Arabs did inherit Greek science - and some Indian and Chinese science too, for that matter - and later passed it on to the West. But this is far from being all they did" (Colin Ronan, Science: Its History and Development Among World's Cultures; New York; 1982; p.203).
6. An eminent mid-20th century scholar, George Sarton (Harvard Univ.), traces the "roots" of Western intellectual development to the Arab tradition, which was "the outstanding stream, and remained until 14th century one of the largest streams of medieval thought." Further, "The Arabs were standing on the shoulders of their Greek forerunners, just as the Americans are standing on the shoulders of their European ones. There is nothing wrong in that." Then Sarton criticizes those who "will glibly say `The Arabs simply translated Greek writings, they were industrious imitators...' This is not absolutely untrue, but is such a small part of the truth, that when it is allowed to stand alone, it is worse than a lie" (George Sarton, A Guide to the History of Science; Mass.; 1952; pp.27-28).
Further from the mouth of nonmuslim historicans:
George Sarton's Tribute to Muslim Scientists in the "Introduction to the History of Science,"
"It will suffice here to evoke a few glorious names without contemporary equivalents in the West: Jabir ibn Haiyan, al-Kindi, al-Khwarizmi, al-Fargani, al-Razi, Thabit ibn Qurra, al-Battani, Hunain ibn Ishaq, al-Farabi, Ibrahim ibn Sinan, al-Masudi, al-Tabari, Abul Wafa, 'Ali ibn Abbas, Abul Qasim, Ibn al-Jazzar, al-Biruni, Ibn Sina, Ibn Yunus, al-Kashi, Ibn al-Haitham, 'Ali Ibn 'Isa al-Ghazali, al-zarqab, Omar Khayyam. A magnificent array of names which it would not be difficult to extend. If anyone tells you that the Middle Ages were scientifically sterile, just quote these men to him, all of whom flourished within a short period, 750 to 1100 A.D."
John William Draper in the "Intellectual Development of Europe"
"I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has continued to put out of sight our obligations to the Muhammadans. Surely they cannot be much longer hidden. Injustice founded on religious rancour and national conceit cannot be perpetuated forever. The Arab has left his intellectual impress on Europe. He has indelibly written it on the heavens as any one may see who reads the names of the stars on a common celestial globe."
Robert Briffault in the "Making of Humanity"
"It was under the influence of the arabs and Moorish revival of culture and not in the 15th century, that a real renaissance took place. Spain, not Italy, was the cradle of the rebirth of Europe. After steadily sinking lower and lower into barbarism, it had reached the darkest depths of ignorance and degradation when cities of the Saracenic world, Baghdad, Cairo, Cordova, and Toledo, were growing centers of civilization and intellectual activity. It was there that the new life arose which was to grow into new phase of human evolution. From the time when the influence of their culture made itself felt, began the stirring of new life.
"It was under their successors at Oxford School (that is, successors to the Muslims of Spain) that Roger Bacon learned Arabic and Arabic Sciences. Neither Roger Bacon nor later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method. Roger Bacon was no more than one of apostles of Muslim Science and Method to Christian Europe; and he never wearied of declaring that knowledge of Arabic and Arabic Sciences was for his contemporaries the only way to true knowledge. Discussion as to who was the originator of the experimental method....are part of the colossal misinterpretation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread and eagerly cultivated throughout Europe.
"Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world; but its fruits were slow in ripening. Not until long after Moorish culture had sunk back into darkness did the giant, which it had given birth to, rise in his might. It was not science only which brought Europe back to life. Other and manifold influence from the civilization of Islam communicated its first glow to European Life.
"For Although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence of Islamic Culture is not traceable, nowhere is it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the permanent distinctive force of the modern world, and the supreme source of its victory, natural science and the scientific spirit.
"The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories, science owes a great deal more to Arab culture, it owes its existence. The Astronomy and Mathematics of the Greeks were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture. The Greeks systematized, generalized and theorized, but the patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute method of science, detailed and prolonged observation and experimental inquiry were altogether alien to the Greek temperament. Only in Hellenistic Alexandria was any approach to scientific work conducted in the ancient classical world. What we call science arose in Europe as a result of new spirit of enquiry, of new methods of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics, in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs.
"It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely certain that but for them, it would not have assumed that character which has enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution."
Arnold and Guillaume in "Lagacy of Islam" on Islamic science and medicine
"Looking back we may say that Islamic medicine and science reflected the light of the Hellenic sun, when its day had fled, and that they shone like a moon, illuminating the darkest night of the European middle Ages; that some bright stars lent their own light, and that moon and stars alike faded at the dawn of a new day - the Renaissance. Since they had their share in the direction and introduction of that great movement, it may reasonably be claimed that they are with us yet."
George Sarton in the "Introduction to the History of Science"
"During the reign of Caliph Al-Mamun (813-33 A.D.), the new learning reached its climax. The monarch created in Baghdad a regular school for translation. It was equipped with a library, one of the translators there was Hunayn Ibn Ishaq (809-77) a particularly gifted philosopher and physician of wide erudition, the dominating figure of this century of translators. We know from his own recently published Memoir that he translated practically the whole immense corpus of Galenic writings."
"Besides the translation of Greek works and their extracts, the translators made manuals of which one form, that of the 'pandects,' is typical of the period of Arabic learning. These are recapitulations of the whole medicine, discussing the affections of the body, systematically beginning at the head and working down to the feet."
"The Muslim ideal was, it goes without saying, not visual beauty but God in His plentitude; that is God with all his manifestations, the stars and the heavens, the earth and all nature. The Muslim ideal is thus infinite. But in dealing with the infinite as conceived by the Muslims, we cannot limit ourselves to the space alone, but must equally consider time.
"The first mathematical step from the Greek conception of a static universe to the Islamic one of a dynamic universe was made by Al-Khwarizmi (780-850), the founder of modern Algebra. He enhanced the purely arithmetical character of numbers as finite magnitudes by demonstrating their possibilities as elements of infinite manipulations and investigations of properties and relations.
"In Greek mathematics, the numbers could expand only by the laborious process of addition and multiplication. Khwarizmi's algebraic symbols for numbers contain within themselves the potentialities of the infinite. So we might say that the advance from arithmetic to algebra implies a step from being to 'becoming' from the Greek universe to the living universe of Islam. The importance of Khwarizmi's algebra was recognized, in the twelfth century, by the West, - when Girard of Cremona translated his theses into Latin. Until the sixteenth century this version was used in European universities as the principal mathematical text book. But Khwarizmi's influence reached far beyond the universities. We find it reflected in the mathematical works of Leonardo Fibinacci of Pissa, Master Jacob of Florence, and even of Leonardo da Vinci."
"Through their medical investigations they not merely widened the horizons of medicine, but enlarged humanistic concepts generally. And once again they brought this about because of their over riding spiritual convictions. Thus it can hardly have been accidental that those researches should have led them that were inevitably beyond the reach of Greek masters. If it is regarded as symbolic that the most spectacular achievement of the mid-twentieth century is atomic fission and the nuclear bomb, likewise it would not seem fortuitous that the early Muslim's medical endeavor should have led to a discovery that was quite as revolutionary though possibly more beneficent."
"A philosophy of self-centredness, under whatever disguise, would be both incomprehensible and reprehensible to the Muslim mind. That mind was incapable of viewing man, whether in health or sickness as isolated from God, from fellow men, and from the world around him. It was probably inevitable that the Muslims should have discovered that disease need not be born within the patient himself but may reach from outside, in other words, that they should have been the first to establish clearly the existence of contagion."
"One of the most famous exponents of Muslim universalism and an eminent figure in Islamic learning was Ibn Sina, known in the West as Avicenna (981-1037). For a thousand years he has retained his original renown as one of the greatest thinkers and medical scholars in history. His most important medical works are the Qanun (Canon) and a treatise on Cardiac drugs. The 'Qanun fi-l-Tibb' is an immense encyclopedia of medicine. It contains some of the most illuminating thoughts pertaining to distinction of mediastinitis from pleurisy; contagious nature of phthisis; distribution of diseases by water and soil; careful description of skin troubles; of sexual diseases and perversions; of nervous ailments."
"We have reason to believe that when, during the crusades, Europe at last began to establish hospitals, they were inspired by the Arabs of near East....The first hospital in Paris, Les Quinze-vingt, was founded by Louis IX after his return from the crusade 1254-1260."
"We find in his (Jabir, Geber) writings remarkably sound views on methods of chemical research, a theory on the geologic formation of metals (the six metals differ essentially because of different proportions of sulphur and mercury in them); preparation of various substances (e.g., basic lead carbonatic, arsenic and antimony from their sulphides)."
Ibn Haytham's writings reveal his fine development of the experimental faculty. His tables of corresponding angles of incidence and refraction of light passing from one medium to another show how closely he had approached discovering the law of constancy of ratio of sines, later attributed to snell. He accounted correctly for twilight as due to atmospheric refraction, estimating the sun's depression to be 19 degrees below the horizon, at the commencement of the phenomenon in the mornings or at its termination in the evenings."
"A great deal of geographical as well as historical and scientific knowledge is contained in the thirty volume meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems by one of the leading Muslim Historians, the tenth century al Mas'udi. A more strictly geographical work is the dictionary 'Mujam al-Buldan' by al-Hamami (1179-1229). This is a veritable encyclopedia that, in going far beyond the confines of geography, incorporates also a great deal of scientific lore."
"They studied, collected and described plants that might have some utilitarian purpose, whether in agriculture or in medicine. These excellent tendencies, without equivalent in Christendom, were continued during the first half of the thirteenth century by an admirable group of four botanists. One of these Ibn al-Baitar compiled the most elaborate Arabic work on the subject (Botany), in fact the most important for the whole period extending from Dioscorides down to the sixteenth century. It was a true encyclopedia on the subject, incorporating the whole Greek and Arabic experience."
"'Abd al-Malik ibn Quraib al-Asmai (739-831) was a pious Arab who wrote some valuable books on human anatomy. Al-Jawaliqi who flourished in the first half of the twelfth century and 'Abd al-Mumin who flourished in the second half of the thirteenth century in Egypt, wrote treatises on horses. The greatest zoologist amongst the Arabs was al-Damiri (1405) of Egypt whose book on animal life, 'Hayat al-Hayawan' has been translated into English by A.S.G. Jayakar (London 1906, 1908)."
"The weight of venerable authority, for example that of Ptolemy, seldom intimidated them. They were always eager to put a theory to tests, and they never tired of experimentation. Though motivated and permeated by the spirit of their religion, they would not allow dogma as interpreted by the orthodox to stand in the way of their scientific research."
Oh well, who would mind reading these historians? Since every lowlife is busy collecting the benefits of the booty-debt collected from Saudis, Kuwaitis, Chinese and Japanese investors while this D-bomb (debt) will explode soon enough; then dont blame me if I mock and laugh at you (oh well, I wont, cuz I am not a low life as you).
Mind reading the book "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" as well?
Some tidbits from BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7810846.stm
CG. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:41 am Post subject: |
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"muslim scientists". Ha! What the *beep* you done for humanity lately?
Jack and/or shit. |
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CyberGuy
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Location: Daejeon, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Axl Rose wrote: |
| HughCl wrote: |
we all know that Africans are worthless as well being the largest continent and yet so poor! Can't they just figure a way to get around that whole poverty thing and just pull themselves up by the bootstraps so they can live meaningful lives? |
What on Earth has Africa got to do with what I said, or anything that's been said in the thread?
Idiot |
The moron must know that it has EVERYTHING to do with Africa. Why? cuz Muslims are not the only "creatures" on earth living under poor conditions. Saudi and Kuwaiti Muslims are rich enough that they not only change their car's models every now an then, but they also have palaces bigger than your pinhead could ever imagine.
Need to mention that these "evil" Saudis have trillions of dollars in the American and other western banks? Need to mention this investment is indirectly nurturing the snakes and scorpions like you? Need to mention you are the scorpions and snakes sucking the benefits of the investment by these "dirty" Arabs while the rest of Muslims are suffering of poverty and your venomous mocking and ridicule?
Why talk about Arfica? there are very very poor Muslim societies same as Africans too.
Furthermore, the moron should know that Islam is not 4 or 5 centuries old. When Muslims were shinning at the sky of science, technology and civilization under Islamic Emirate of Spain, then your European ancestors were busy crawling into the cockroach holes of "The Dark Age". Need not to mention that the Muslims were not mocking and treating nonmuslims as "pieces of s**t"; Why? cuz you have the founder of Israel (David Ben Gurion) saying that the most prosperous era of Jews throughout the history was under the Spanish Empire of Muslims. Now that a damn good witness from the mouth of enemy of Muslims.
After all, where did the Dark Europe got the renaissance from?
1. "No historical student of the culture of Western Europe can ever reconstruct for himself the intellectual values of the later Middle Ages unless he possesses a vivid awareness of Islam looming in the background." (Pierce Butler, "Fifteenth Century of Arabic Authors in Latin Translation, in the McDonald Presentation Volume; Freeport, N.Y., 1933; p.63)
2. "The Arab has left his intellectual impress on Europe, as, before long, Christendom will have to confess; he has indelibly written it on the heavens, as anyone may see who reads the names of the stars on a common celestial globe." (John W. Draper, History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, Harper & Row; Vol.2, 1876 & 1904; p.42)
3. "Because Europe was reacting against Islam it belittled the influence of Saracens [Muslims] and exaggerated its dependence on its Greek and Roman heritage. So today an important task for us is to correct this false emphasis and to acknowledge fully our debt to the Arab and Islamic world" (W. Montgomery Watt, Islamic Surveys: The Influence of Islam on Medieval Europe; Edinburgh, England; 1972; p.84).
4. "One of the hallmarks of civilized man is knowledge of the past - [including]the past of others with whom one's own culture has had repeated and fruitful contact; or the past of any group that has contributed to the ascent of man. The Arabs fit profoundly into both of the latter two categories. But in the West the Arabs are not well known. Victims of ignorance as well as misinformation, they and their culture have often been stigmatized from afar" (John Hayes, The Genius of Arab Civilization: Source of Renaissance; MIT Press, 1983; p. 2)
5. "Too often science in Arabia has been seen as nothing more than a holding operation. The area has been viewed as a giant storehouse for previously discovered scientific results, keeping them until they could be passed on for use in the West. But this is, of course, a travesty of the truth. Certainly the Arabs did inherit Greek science - and some Indian and Chinese science too, for that matter - and later passed it on to the West. But this is far from being all they did" (Colin Ronan, Science: Its History and Development Among World's Cultures; New York; 1982; p.203).
6. An eminent mid-20th century scholar, George Sarton (Harvard Univ.), traces the "roots" of Western intellectual development to the Arab tradition, which was "the outstanding stream, and remained until 14th century one of the largest streams of medieval thought." Further, "The Arabs were standing on the shoulders of their Greek forerunners, just as the Americans are standing on the shoulders of their European ones. There is nothing wrong in that." Then Sarton criticizes those who "will glibly say `The Arabs simply translated Greek writings, they were industrious imitators...' This is not absolutely untrue, but is such a small part of the truth, that when it is allowed to stand alone, it is worse than a lie" (George Sarton, A Guide to the History of Science; Mass.; 1952; pp.27-28).
Further from the mouth of nonmuslim historicans:
George Sarton's Tribute to Muslim Scientists in the "Introduction to the History of Science,"
"It will suffice here to evoke a few glorious names without contemporary equivalents in the West: Jabir ibn Haiyan, al-Kindi, al-Khwarizmi, al-Fargani, al-Razi, Thabit ibn Qurra, al-Battani, Hunain ibn Ishaq, al-Farabi, Ibrahim ibn Sinan, al-Masudi, al-Tabari, Abul Wafa, 'Ali ibn Abbas, Abul Qasim, Ibn al-Jazzar, al-Biruni, Ibn Sina, Ibn Yunus, al-Kashi, Ibn al-Haitham, 'Ali Ibn 'Isa al-Ghazali, al-zarqab, Omar Khayyam. A magnificent array of names which it would not be difficult to extend. If anyone tells you that the Middle Ages were scientifically sterile, just quote these men to him, all of whom flourished within a short period, 750 to 1100 A.D."
John William Draper in the "Intellectual Development of Europe"
"I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has continued to put out of sight our obligations to the Muhammadans. Surely they cannot be much longer hidden. Injustice founded on religious rancour and national conceit cannot be perpetuated forever. The Arab has left his intellectual impress on Europe. He has indelibly written it on the heavens as any one may see who reads the names of the stars on a common celestial globe."
Robert Briffault in the "Making of Humanity"
"It was under the influence of the arabs and Moorish revival of culture and not in the 15th century, that a real renaissance took place. Spain, not Italy, was the cradle of the rebirth of Europe. After steadily sinking lower and lower into barbarism, it had reached the darkest depths of ignorance and degradation when cities of the Saracenic world, Baghdad, Cairo, Cordova, and Toledo, were growing centers of civilization and intellectual activity. It was there that the new life arose which was to grow into new phase of human evolution. From the time when the influence of their culture made itself felt, began the stirring of new life.
"It was under their successors at Oxford School (that is, successors to the Muslims of Spain) that Roger Bacon learned Arabic and Arabic Sciences. Neither Roger Bacon nor later namesake has any title to be credited with having introduced the experimental method. Roger Bacon was no more than one of apostles of Muslim Science and Method to Christian Europe; and he never wearied of declaring that knowledge of Arabic and Arabic Sciences was for his contemporaries the only way to true knowledge. Discussion as to who was the originator of the experimental method....are part of the colossal misinterpretation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental method of Arabs was by Bacon's time widespread and eagerly cultivated throughout Europe.
"Science is the most momentous contribution of Arab civilization to the modern world; but its fruits were slow in ripening. Not until long after Moorish culture had sunk back into darkness did the giant, which it had given birth to, rise in his might. It was not science only which brought Europe back to life. Other and manifold influence from the civilization of Islam communicated its first glow to European Life.
"For Although there is not a single aspect of European growth in which the decisive influence of Islamic Culture is not traceable, nowhere is it so clear and momentous as in the genesis of that power which constitutes the permanent distinctive force of the modern world, and the supreme source of its victory, natural science and the scientific spirit.
"The debt of our science to that of the Arabs does not consist in startling discoveries or revolutionary theories, science owes a great deal more to Arab culture, it owes its existence. The Astronomy and Mathematics of the Greeks were a foreign importation never thoroughly acclimatized in Greek culture. The Greeks systematized, generalized and theorized, but the patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute method of science, detailed and prolonged observation and experimental inquiry were altogether alien to the Greek temperament. Only in Hellenistic Alexandria was any approach to scientific work conducted in the ancient classical world. What we call science arose in Europe as a result of new spirit of enquiry, of new methods of experiment, observation, measurement, of the development of mathematics, in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs.
"It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European civilization would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely certain that but for them, it would not have assumed that character which has enabled it to transcend all previous phases of evolution."
Arnold and Guillaume in "Lagacy of Islam" on Islamic science and medicine
"Looking back we may say that Islamic medicine and science reflected the light of the Hellenic sun, when its day had fled, and that they shone like a moon, illuminating the darkest night of the European middle Ages; that some bright stars lent their own light, and that moon and stars alike faded at the dawn of a new day - the Renaissance. Since they had their share in the direction and introduction of that great movement, it may reasonably be claimed that they are with us yet."
George Sarton in the "Introduction to the History of Science"
"During the reign of Caliph Al-Mamun (813-33 A.D.), the new learning reached its climax. The monarch created in Baghdad a regular school for translation. It was equipped with a library, one of the translators there was Hunayn Ibn Ishaq (809-77) a particularly gifted philosopher and physician of wide erudition, the dominating figure of this century of translators. We know from his own recently published Memoir that he translated practically the whole immense corpus of Galenic writings."
"Besides the translation of Greek works and their extracts, the translators made manuals of which one form, that of the 'pandects,' is typical of the period of Arabic learning. These are recapitulations of the whole medicine, discussing the affections of the body, systematically beginning at the head and working down to the feet."
"The Muslim ideal was, it goes without saying, not visual beauty but God in His plentitude; that is God with all his manifestations, the stars and the heavens, the earth and all nature. The Muslim ideal is thus infinite. But in dealing with the infinite as conceived by the Muslims, we cannot limit ourselves to the space alone, but must equally consider time.
"The first mathematical step from the Greek conception of a static universe to the Islamic one of a dynamic universe was made by Al-Khwarizmi (780-850), the founder of modern Algebra. He enhanced the purely arithmetical character of numbers as finite magnitudes by demonstrating their possibilities as elements of infinite manipulations and investigations of properties and relations.
"In Greek mathematics, the numbers could expand only by the laborious process of addition and multiplication. Khwarizmi's algebraic symbols for numbers contain within themselves the potentialities of the infinite. So we might say that the advance from arithmetic to algebra implies a step from being to 'becoming' from the Greek universe to the living universe of Islam. The importance of Khwarizmi's algebra was recognized, in the twelfth century, by the West, - when Girard of Cremona translated his theses into Latin. Until the sixteenth century this version was used in European universities as the principal mathematical text book. But Khwarizmi's influence reached far beyond the universities. We find it reflected in the mathematical works of Leonardo Fibinacci of Pissa, Master Jacob of Florence, and even of Leonardo da Vinci."
"Through their medical investigations they not merely widened the horizons of medicine, but enlarged humanistic concepts generally. And once again they brought this about because of their over riding spiritual convictions. Thus it can hardly have been accidental that those researches should have led them that were inevitably beyond the reach of Greek masters. If it is regarded as symbolic that the most spectacular achievement of the mid-twentieth century is atomic fission and the nuclear bomb, likewise it would not seem fortuitous that the early Muslim's medical endeavor should have led to a discovery that was quite as revolutionary though possibly more beneficent."
"A philosophy of self-centredness, under whatever disguise, would be both incomprehensible and reprehensible to the Muslim mind. That mind was incapable of viewing man, whether in health or sickness as isolated from God, from fellow men, and from the world around him. It was probably inevitable that the Muslims should have discovered that disease need not be born within the patient himself but may reach from outside, in other words, that they should have been the first to establish clearly the existence of contagion."
"One of the most famous exponents of Muslim universalism and an eminent figure in Islamic learning was Ibn Sina, known in the West as Avicenna (981-1037). For a thousand years he has retained his original renown as one of the greatest thinkers and medical scholars in history. His most important medical works are the Qanun (Canon) and a treatise on Cardiac drugs. The 'Qanun fi-l-Tibb' is an immense encyclopedia of medicine. It contains some of the most illuminating thoughts pertaining to distinction of mediastinitis from pleurisy; contagious nature of phthisis; distribution of diseases by water and soil; careful description of skin troubles; of sexual diseases and perversions; of nervous ailments."
"We have reason to believe that when, during the crusades, Europe at last began to establish hospitals, they were inspired by the Arabs of near East....The first hospital in Paris, Les Quinze-vingt, was founded by Louis IX after his return from the crusade 1254-1260."
"We find in his (Jabir, Geber) writings remarkably sound views on methods of chemical research, a theory on the geologic formation of metals (the six metals differ essentially because of different proportions of sulphur and mercury in them); preparation of various substances (e.g., basic lead carbonatic, arsenic and antimony from their sulphides)."
Ibn Haytham's writings reveal his fine development of the experimental faculty. His tables of corresponding angles of incidence and refraction of light passing from one medium to another show how closely he had approached discovering the law of constancy of ratio of sines, later attributed to snell. He accounted correctly for twilight as due to atmospheric refraction, estimating the sun's depression to be 19 degrees below the horizon, at the commencement of the phenomenon in the mornings or at its termination in the evenings."
"A great deal of geographical as well as historical and scientific knowledge is contained in the thirty volume meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems by one of the leading Muslim Historians, the tenth century al Mas'udi. A more strictly geographical work is the dictionary 'Mujam al-Buldan' by al-Hamami (1179-1229). This is a veritable encyclopedia that, in going far beyond the confines of geography, incorporates also a great deal of scientific lore."
"They studied, collected and described plants that might have some utilitarian purpose, whether in agriculture or in medicine. These excellent tendencies, without equivalent in Christendom, were continued during the first half of the thirteenth century by an admirable group of four botanists. One of these Ibn al-Baitar compiled the most elaborate Arabic work on the subject (Botany), in fact the most important for the whole period extending from Dioscorides down to the sixteenth century. It was a true encyclopedia on the subject, incorporating the whole Greek and Arabic experience."
"'Abd al-Malik ibn Quraib al-Asmai (739-831) was a pious Arab who wrote some valuable books on human anatomy. Al-Jawaliqi who flourished in the first half of the twelfth century and 'Abd al-Mumin who flourished in the second half of the thirteenth century in Egypt, wrote treatises on horses. The greatest zoologist amongst the Arabs was al-Damiri (1405) of Egypt whose book on animal life, 'Hayat al-Hayawan' has been translated into English by A.S.G. Jayakar (London 1906, 1908)."
"The weight of venerable authority, for example that of Ptolemy, seldom intimidated them. They were always eager to put a theory to tests, and they never tired of experimentation. Though motivated and permeated by the spirit of their religion, they would not allow dogma as interpreted by the orthodox to stand in the way of their scientific research."
Oh well, who would mind reading these historians? Since every lowlife is busy collecting the benefits of the booty-debt collected from Saudis, Kuwaitis, Chinese and Japanese investors while this D-bomb (debt) will explode soon enough; then dont blame me if I mock and laugh at you (oh well, I wont, cuz I am not a low life as you).
Mind reading the book "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" as well?
Some tidbits from BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7810846.stm
CG. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| CyberGuy wrote: |
The moron must know that it has EVERYTHING to do with Africa. Why? cuz Muslims are not the only "creatures" on earth living under poor conditions. Saudi and Kuwaiti Muslims are rich enough that they not only change their car's models every now an then, but they also have palaces bigger than your pinhead could ever imagine.
Need to mention that these "evil" Saudis have trillions of dollars in the American and other western banks? Need to mention this investment is indirectly nurturing the snakes and scorpions like you? Need to mention you are the scorpions and snakes sucking the benefits of the investment by these "dirty" Arabs while the rest of Muslims are suffering of poverty and your venomous mocking and ridicule?
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Firstly, I can tell that you are very angry and frustrated. This is because your barbaric and dated way of life is under threat. Nevertheless, please practice the peace that your religion preaches.
Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are slaves to the US, and exist only because the western world allows them to. These countries export crude oil and wahhabi mosks -- nothing else. (Oh, and a few terrorists) My point is that these countries are horribly mismanaged and top-heavy with oil wealth. Revolutions do not occur because the 5000-member strong royalty literally PAY their unemployed masses to procreate, while the majority of Saudis live in deplorable conditions. Furthermore, it's AMERICA'S fault that these people are sexually repressed and have a shortage of women to wed. The western world will create cold fission and the hydrogen engine, and the muslim world will stagnate. You think Africa's bad? At least they have resources. The only resources the wahhabis have is a nonexistant god and oil. I nevertheless pledge them all the best.
| CyberGuy wrote: |
Why talk about Arfica? there are very very poor Muslim societies same as Africans too.
Furthermore, the moron should know that Islam is not 4 or 5 centuries old. When Muslims were shinning at the sky of science, technology and civilization under Islamic Emirate of Spain, then your European ancestors were busy crawling into the cockroach holes of "The Dark Age". Need not to mention that the Muslims were not mocking and treating nonmuslims as "pieces of s**t"; Why? cuz you have the founder of Israel (David Ben Gurion) saying that the most prosperous era of Jews throughout the history was under the Spanish Empire of Muslims. Now that a damn good witness from the mouth of enemy of Muslims.
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Err, come again? I'm not sure where you're going. Thank you also for listing some muslum 'achievers.' Most of the world has never heard of them. But we've all heard of Bell, Edison, Franklin, and the Wrights.
Please join us, Cyberguy. Inevitably Islam will lose, as logic will ultimately prevail in this world. I'm still waiting for your private message, and will gladly meet you in any central Seoul area. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| HughCl wrote: |
Yes Axel
we all know that Africans are worthless as well being the largest continent and yet so poor! Can't they just figure a way to get around that whole poverty thing and just pull themselves up by the bootstraps so they can live meaningful lives? |
No, they can't, thanks to the west. This is one instance in which the west is doing more harm than good. Western aid to Africa has not only perpetuated poverty but also worsened it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/22/magazine/22wwln-q4-t.html?_r=4&scp=5&sq=Africa&st=cse
Not that your contribution has anything to do with this thread, HughCl. Because it doesn't. |
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HughCl
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Senior Kim
You say Muslims being 22% of world population only generate 5% of GDP. So like the Africans they are simply worthless because they are poor.
yikes.. you did graduate from college right? You know what sarcasm = is right?
Cyber guy
Dont waste your time here with scientific responses. These dewds hate and it has blinded their ability to be rational. Jews have indeed been treated harshly historically. And they believe that the genocide in Holocaust which was done by Christians against Jews, well somehow they have turned this around to blame Muslims.
I pray for the Israelis that when the inevitable war comes that they will be shown the mercy that they did not show the native residents.
Not all Jews are like them. The vast majority are good but blinded by the Israeli lobby. The overwhelming majority of Jews have voted with their feet and not moved to Israel. They remain Patriots first.
Dont waste your time with logic on them--go out and enjoy the good weather-- |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| HughCl wrote: |
I pray for the Israelis that when the inevitable war comes that they will be shown the mercy that they did not show the native residents.
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But, the Jews are the native residents! See, two can play at this game! This is so much fun, I could do this all day!
| HughCl wrote: |
Dont waste your time with logic on them--go out and enjoy the good weather-- |
Yes! Haha! *Put* down your Kworan and go talk to some girls! Enjoy the spring miniskirts! And relax by the beach with a beer! Now that's freedom!
Last edited by Kimbop on Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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HughCl
Joined: 18 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Kim is right: Beer, the Beach and ladies are a much healthier place to spend energy |
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