|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
 Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:39 am Post subject: |
 |
|
[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Is it extremist to expect government people to do their jobs?
(whether they were appointed or not)
Is it extremist to expect the administration to follow it's own plans?
( then they claim that there were none or blame the victims)
Do you really think this is extremism?
http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/9/4/171811/1974
CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE AND KATRINA?
By Larry Johnson | bio
From: Politics
The provocative title is intentional. Why did the Bush Administration fail to act according to the National Response Plan they created in December of 2004 to deal with an incident like Katrina?
What do you do when the words on the paper don't match the action in the field? People are dying today in New Orleans because of the failure to provide immediate aid are dead in part because of the negligence of Michael Chertoff. That is a harsh judgment, but if you will take time to read the National Response Plan that was signed into effect in December of 2004 there is no other reasonable conclusion.
The current effort by the Bush Administration to blame the victims in Louisiana and Mississippi is bad enough, but they are in big trouble once Americans take the time to understand that they the Administration ignored it's own plan for dealing with a threat like Katrina. Why did they fail to implement the plan until it was too late to save lives along the Gulf Coast?
Don't take my word for it, read the plan yourself. You can download it at http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf
The National Response Plan was accepted and implemented by Bush Administration in December 2004. According to the PREFACE, President Bush, "directed the development of a new National Response Plan (NRP) to align Federal coordination structures, capabilities, and resources into a unified, all discipline, and all-hazards approach to domestic incident management. . . .The end result is vastly improved coordination among Federal, State, local, and tribal organizations to help save lives and protect America's communities by increasing the speed, effectiveness, and efficiency of incident management."
Sep 04, 2005 -- 05:18:11 PM EST |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Excuse me? ow the hell do you know how I make my decisions? You know absolutely nothing about me. And how completely arrogant are you? He says exactly what I've been saying to you, but *I'm* a nimrod? And I said it first. But I only follow others blindly. Seriously, explain your logical conclusion that I have no mind of my own froma couple threads on Dave's.... Logic, where art thou? |
And ok, you just don't have a mind of your own on a couple threads. You're right, I shouldn't be so quick to judge. |
A non-answer is an answer?
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| And because you don't see how chaos theory and relativity come into play in the connections of things, *I'm* the nimrod? Because you choose to accept that Iraq had no bearing on preparedness for this disaster, *I'm* a nimrod? You accept the party line, refuse to question, but I'm the one who can't think for himself and is a nimrod? |
A) I did not say I disagree with you. That was not my point at all.
B) You accuse me of jumping to conclusions, yet here you are doing the same.
C) That being said, yes, Iraq had some bearing on what happened in LA. Nevertheless, I think you are exageratting the impact. |
C is simply not possible. Disagreement. Why say i am a nimrod, nimrod?
| Quote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Point being this: if, in a conversation, you blame Bush for Katrina and all the chaos that has ensued, you're going to turn the listener away 9 times out of 10 (unless the person has very similar views to you). If, however, you have a disspassionate debate about Iraq with that person, you probably won't change that person's mind, but you will make a good impression on him/her and down the line that person's pov on various issues will shift a step closer to yours. |
| efltrainer wrote: |
| Pollyanna. Dispassionate.... weak is a better term. |
Ah yes. Because you know, in a democracy, it is the person with the loudest, most obnoxious voice that wins. |
Unfortunately, these days, yes, it is.
| Quote: |
| Unfortunately America is becoming that way (more shrill, less debate). |
See?
| Quote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Finally, you say the right-wing certainly doesn't do it, so why should we? Firstly, the right-wing did not succeed with that until recently. Before that, the right-wing espoused a POSITIVE message while, admittedly, it also was quite negative towards the left. |
| efltrainer wrote: |
| Please define recently!! This is incredible... |
Recently: I'd say 2004. 1994, you had the contract for america. Sure, it was a load of BS but it sounded good to some: smaller, more effective gov't. 1996 the GOP didn't do so well. It didn't really have a message then. In 2000, you had compassionate conservatism. Also complete BS but it did have a certain BS charm to it. Was effective was it not? |
You say they DIDN'T use a positive message, but use a LIE as an example of a positive message??
| Quote: |
| And what did the Democrats have? In 2004: "Anyone but Bush please." 2000: "I'll continue Clinton's success." Woo hoo, I'm excited, aren't you? |
The Democratic campaign of 2004 was sheer stupiity....which you have supported with your post and the quote above.... strange. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Most Revealing Quote of the Day:
http://www.davidcorn.com/
The best (in a perverse way) quote of recent days came from William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard and cheerleader-in-chief for the war in Iraq. He told The Washington Post, "Almost every Republican I have spoken with is disappointed" in Bush's response to the disaster. "He is a strong president...but he has never really focused on the importance of good execution. I think that is true in many parts of his presidency."
Reported elsewhere, but, just too bizarre not to post here too:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050907/en_afp/usweatherbushhouston_050907043839
"What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality," she said.
"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this -- this is working very well for them." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Excuse me? ow the hell do you know how I make my decisions? You know absolutely nothing about me. And how completely arrogant are you? He says exactly what I've been saying to you, but *I'm* a nimrod? And I said it first. But I only follow others blindly. Seriously, explain your logical conclusion that I have no mind of my own froma couple threads on Dave's.... Logic, where art thou? |
And ok, you just don't have a mind of your own on a couple threads. You're right, I shouldn't be so quick to judge. |
A non-answer is an answer? |
what? lost me there.
| efltrainer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And because you don't see how chaos theory and relativity come into play in the connections of things, *I'm* the nimrod? Because you choose to accept that Iraq had no bearing on preparedness for this disaster, *I'm* a nimrod? You accept the party line, refuse to question, but I'm the one who can't think for himself and is a nimrod? |
A) I did not say I disagree with you. That was not my point at all.
B) You accuse me of jumping to conclusions, yet here you are doing the same.
C) That being said, yes, Iraq had some bearing on what happened in LA. Nevertheless, I think you are exageratting the impact. |
| efltrainer wrote: |
| C is simply not possible. Disagreement. Why say i am a nimrod, nimrod? |
How is c not possible?
Why say you're a nimrod? Get over it dude. Your petty arguments with Gopher make you that way. You two talk past each other constantly. Why did I single you out and not Gopher? Well he has shown on other threads that he is well-read and knows quite a bit on some subjects (such as American history). I also admit my bias of agreeing contributed as well.
| eftrainer wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Finally, you say the right-wing certainly doesn't do it, so why should we? Firstly, the right-wing did not succeed with that until recently. Before that, the right-wing espoused a POSITIVE message while, admittedly, it also was quite negative towards the left. |
| efltrainer wrote: |
| Please define recently!! This is incredible... |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Recently: I'd say 2004. 1994, you had the contract for america. Sure, it was a load of BS but it sounded good to some: smaller, more effective gov't. 1996 the GOP didn't do so well. It didn't really have a message then. In 2000, you had compassionate conservatism. Also complete BS but it did have a certain BS charm to it. Was effective was it not? |
| Quote: |
| You say they DIDN'T use a positive message, but use a LIE as an example of a positive message?? |
| Quote: |
| And what did the Democrats have? In 2004: "Anyone but Bush please." 2000: "I'll continue Clinton's success." Woo hoo, I'm excited, aren't you? |
The Democratic campaign of 2004 was sheer stupiity....which you have supported with your post and the quote above.... strange. |
Who said a positive message had to be the truth??  They aren't connected. Sure, a positive truthful message is great, but let's be honest: that's rare in politics, regardless of where you live or what political party you're talking about.
Uh, are you saying I supported the democratic campaign of 2004 or against it? or is your point that I appear to be arguing both?
If the latter, I'll make it clear: the democrats ran an awful campaign in 2004. Why? because they stood for nothing. Michael Moore and moveon.org did not help. Don't believe me? Just ask Joo about his 2004 vote. 
(the joo thing was a bit of a joke, don't think i'm being totally serious and reply, "yeah, and that's the kind of person we want to associate ourselves with" or something sarcastic like that). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Barbara Bush wrote: |
"What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality," she said.
"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this -- this is working very well for them." |
What a pathetic and sad woman... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| A non-answer is an answer? |
what? lost me there.[/quote]
You have not explained or given any factual information that supports that I do not think for myself. (Hint: this is impossible, which is why you saying it in the first place was strange.)
| Quote: |
| efltrainer wrote: |
| C is simply not possible. Disagreement. Why say i am a nimrod, nimrod? |
How is c not possible? |
It's an opinion. It's impossible to separate the two and the overall affects of Iraq, creation of HS, etc., have been profound.
| Quote: |
| Why did I single you out and not Gopher? Well he has shown on other threads that he is well-read and knows quite a bit on some subjects (such as American history). I also admit my bias of agreeing contributed as well. |
Hehe... but I'm the nimrod...
| Quote: |
| Uh, are you saying I supported the democratic campaign of 2004 or against it? or is your point that I appear to be arguing both? |
My point is that you and gopher seem to be saying the Democrats should play nice and back that by saying the Republicans have been.... which is ridiculous.
I'm upset that this thread devolved in to personalities (but don't thy always seem to?) and would prefer to leave this aspect of the topic behind. There are important things that could be discussed... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Pligganease wrote: |
| Barbara Bush wrote: |
"What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality," she said.
"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this -- this is working very well for them." |
What a pathetic and sad woman... |
Bob Denver is dead, yet she clings to life. Terrible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:48 am Post subject: ... |
|
|
| Quote: |
| RE:my comments helping him get elected, obviously they had no bearing on him getting elected (or losing for that matter). And no one's comments on this board itself have any impact on it, or any election for that matter. That being said, the way one acts and what one says might change another's vote or at least perception of your point of view. |
So, Bucheon, your point is what? That you can call a tight election a month before it happens with impunity, then tell other people that they are responsible for Bush's victory?
Now Gopher,
I could say a lot of things. I'll start off by asking who you are to be talking about name-calling? Reaper? Hypocrite.
Your point at this point, I believe, is:
It is partisan, opportunistic, and unfair to blame Bush when "Mother Nature slaps us around".
Is that mischaracterizing you? I don't want to mischaracterize you.
The recurrent word in numerous posts here is that Bush is "all" to blame for Hurricane Katrina. I don't know if it is yours personally, but I invite anyone to show where anyone has said all of the blame is to be been laid on Bush.
That said, there have been numerous natural disasters during the past 5 years. Were any of them blamed on Bush? No that I know of.
BUT, you go on to say that blaming him for this "Force Majeure" is a "cheap shot".
To start with, is labeling something "a cheap shot" your idea of high discourse?
And you persist in this despite increasingly heaping evidence that:
A) Funding for levees was inadequate. In fact, half of what was projected.
Note: NO weathered the storm itself. It was the levees breaking that "slapped around" New Orleans.
and
B) FEMA had been rendered dysfunctional by federal restructuring focusing on terrorism.
Note: Your arguments about previous presidencies appointing cronies does not, in any way, absolve this administration for such actions. And I have to agree with EFL on this point. In this case, it is absolutely negligent. In light of what's happened, criminally so. Is there a law on record to make it criminal? Probably not. But that remains as my perspective. At the very least, it should result ina firing.
That that said, feel free to ignore all of the above.
What I'd like is an answer to this:
Is Bush in ANY WAY responsible for what has happened in New Orleans?
To move on, the most severe problem I have with you is the same I've had with other posters on this board:
I have no tolerance whatsoever for people who ride in and decide they are the smartest people here. This has occured again and again over the relatively short time I've been a participant.
It's all very nice that you bring us a graduate-level perspective on Chile and Central/South America, but that far from makes you untouchable.
Your views on Katrina are equal to Rapier's, EFLTrainer's, and mine. You have shown zero damning evidence that you are in the right and we're just a bunch of mukluks.
The same goes for your opinion about the anti-Bush video of the '04 gridiron roast.
Your master's wasn't in the gridiron roast, was it?
And, for the record, I'm not a Democrat. That's just how I end up voting.
Finally, if you want to engage in the strategy of waiting till Bush/conservatives make a "real mistake" so that you can skewer them, more power to you. BUT that doesn't make the obvious blame the White House has to bear for its short-sighted, one-sided budget decisions wrong.
The cheap shot is you pretending the criticism isn't real or valid. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 2:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dogbert wrote: |
| Bob Denver is dead, yet she clings to life. Terrible. |
Right on Doggie. I don't think i could have said it better myself  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:50 am Post subject: ... |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The War on Iraq, a.k.a., The Insanity in the White House, has just claimed an entire US city. |
I don't see in any way how this exclusively blames Bush for ALL of the destruction wrought by this event.
You talk about black and white. Now look at you. LOOK AT YOU.
Hypocrite.
Cherry-picking, weak response. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 5:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
[deleted]
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
