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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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 Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| Threequalseven wrote: |
| Robbie_davies, everything I said was in response to the litany of posters saying how their home life is so terrible, their life in Korea is so great, and anyone who disagrees must be wealthy and entitled. That's the only reason I'm saying your home life isn't that bad, Korea isn't that amazing, and me saying so doesn't automatically make me a rich entitled snob. |
You have got a really condescending attitude haven't you? You didn't reply to anything in your OP. You made your play about great life is in America and how you had it better there and then it went onto how all us Brits on here should shut up whinging and be grateful to the NHS and to not having to pay our student debt - but you have never ever lived in the UK let alone visited it? So, on that basis - who are you to judge our choices and our outlook on where we live and why?
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| You said, "There is no 'stereotyping' going on except what you are saying yourselves." Yourselves? In that one statement, you lump me in with all the other Americans that fit that description. That's stereotyping. I don't agree with those people who say teaching ESL is for losers, and neither do you. So you and I are in agreement there. |
'Yourselves' the people on this thread or on this forum who look down and whinge about what they are doing, the ones who like to look down and unfavourably compare themselves to nuclear physicists and engineers - not every American and Canadian that ever lived.
We still have to pay the debt. It finishes at 65, that is all. They might change the law on that as well as many aren't paying it back. You sound envious about this and that we live in the UK where we don't have to pay our debt. Now, other foreigners are telling you the same thing - it's shite living there! Go there and live for a year or two and then come back and we will all have a discussion about it. Do you think your days out in the lake, jamming sessions and craft beers exist there? If you end up on a council estate in Barnsley, Whitehaven, Medway or Kilmarnock - then you would know - even with the free healthcare.
Yes, a life in Banbury, leafy Suffolk or York is nice, but you need money, you are priced out of a quality of life. That is a fact.
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| Again, none of this has to do with me. I only mentioned my band and all that stuff to demonstrate that you could have done more with your life in England. Everyone is acting like England was this prison where the only thing to do is work graveyard shifts, eat junk food, and get fat. I just find that ridiculous, regardless of your social class. |
Have you ever lived there? Visited there even? (You would have mentioned it by now, so obviously not.) If not, why have you got a load of people who don't know each other on an online forum saying the same damn thing? Think about that for a minute. Yes, it is not like living in Bosnia or the Congo but I have exercised a choice and have decided to reject my home country. Others have done the same. There are 5 million Britons living outside the country on a permemant basis. That figure tells you something.
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| And I only brought up craft beer, live music, and so on, to show that Korea doesn't have "everything" as some people have claimed. |
Who says it has everything? It is just at this moment in time, we can make a living and have a decent life without all the social ills that plague a typical council estate where I would end up because - these days - I can't get on the property ladder.
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| Regardless, I chose to leave my home and all that stuff to come teach ESL, just like you, and I enjoy it too. But for me personally, Korea just doesn't have enough to offer for me to stay. And, no, it's not just craft beer and my friends' bands that you all keep bringing up. |
Hahaha - You brought it up!
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| I just feel like Korea is stale. There's hardly any diversity. And the monoculture of celebrity gossip and judging people's appearances reminds me too much of high school. Now, if that makes no difference to you and you decide to spend several teaching years here, that's fantastic. I'm happy for you. I'm going to give some other countries a shot. Will they have live music and craft beer? Probably not. But will people automatically assume that I'm some rich, spoiled snob who thinks all ESL teachers are losers if I happen to say something negative about that country? I doubt it. |
You sound like one, you were the one who was asking for the place where all the intellectual minds hang out. Pardon if that is the impression you are giving off at this moment in time. So the place is quite shallow in what you require - fine. I am happy living in Asia and will stay for the time being.
| Seoulman69 wrote: |
| Some asshat complained about the tv. Get a life you soppy git... Just because your rich middle class daddy thinks teaching esl is a waste of time for his little dipshit doesn't mean the rest of us think it's a waste of time.... i'm a sh!t ton funnier than the fat foreign f@ckface currently doing the rounds on Korean tv. |
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| So... about that "condescending tone?" |
He is being humourous - you won't see it thay way but I thought it was funny.  |
I think there might be a bit of misunderstanding with the way people write things on here... not only is it sometimes difficult to understand the tone or emotions put across when something is said in type form but the cultural thing is an issue, because I feel that any Brit would get Seoulmans humour straight away but North Americans don't do sarcasm or wit in the same dry manner as we do.
I can honestly see the frustration from both sides, but ultimately, Robbie is speaking from personal experience, so if you're not a Brit and can only relate through what you've read online... it can rub people the wrong way.
However some of your points do have merit Threequal, and it's debates like this that would be great to have over a few beers. |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I'm done with this pissing match because it's going nowhere. My whole point that Korea might not be as good as other Asian countries to live in has been completely diluted. I never said people teaching ESL are losers or are in some way wrong for being here. I never even said that England wasn't a shithole. All I'm saying is it might be worth teaching in other countries before saying how great Korea is, just because it's better than home. The OP asked if anybody regrets coming here, and I said I don't regret coming but I don't plan on staying and gave my reasons for doing so.
In reply to Julius, those are all valid points. However, those would also be valid points anywhere else too... So if a person is already feeling clausrophobic after a year here, it's hard to say it would be worth learning the language and investing in a country you're not even sure you like. Like most people, I came here because it's the best package deal for an entry-level ESL teacher, and it makes for a great first year. But I'd rather try teaching other places before settling down in the first country I came to. Again, that's just my preference, and I'm happy for anyone who's made Korea their long term gig. |
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Threequalseven
Joined: 08 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Also, I never asked where all the intellectual minds hang out. I recall that post, but you have me confused with someone else. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Threequalseven wrote: |
| My whole point that Korea might not be as good as other Asian countries to live in has been completely diluted. |
Absolutely, depending on what is most important to you, other asian countries have masses to offer.
Koreas initial drawcard though was that you could score a job easily any time of the year. You could pick up a gig and drop it to fit your travel shedule, and earn a substantial amount. It was all so convenient. It was the 7-11 of esl.
But after that, unless you get sucked into a relationship, learn the language, make a comfy circle of friends or find interests to pursue, then yeah you'd be looking elsewhere. |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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In many ways I would say this applies to Canada once you leave the larger cities: not very multi cultural at all and often not all that comfortable or welcoming to multi-culturalism. |
Not true at all. I'd say there is more ignorance, but often unwelcoming? For someone that rushes to Koreas rescue everytime someone makes a negative generalization (even though you used qualifiers you still made a negative generalization), you sure don't seem to have a problem doing it to rural Canadians.
There is just as much racism and "go back to your country" attitude in urban centres as rural. In my experience actually more. Immigrant families are usually embraced by the community they move to. I know because I saw it hundreds of times growing up in rural Canada. Cities have a way more us vs them mentality. Just check out Vancouver. Hardly an enlightened utopia.
Last edited by misher on Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:26 am Post subject: |
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People vote with their feet, and if that is the case, Korea remains a popular destination for expats. I've seen more lifers here than I have since coming here in the 1990s, though perhaps Asia rather than Korea is their home.
Many who have left Korea still regularly post on this board, and that attests to the addiction Korea can be for many. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:43 am Post subject: |
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People vote with their feet, and if that is the case, Korea remains a popular place to leave.
Statistically, I doubt the numbers of stayers would reach the level of significance.
There are more lifers since there has been a huge increases of ESL teachers since 1990s, and with some matching and hatching-well, some are just going to stay on.
There are a few that post on this board that no longer live here, but supposition would suggest it says as much about them as is does to Korea's 'allure'.
As I have read this I thought of Maslow's hierarchy. Some are happy to get the basics met. This is as it should be at the start. It does seem that, for many, the longer you stay the greater the sense of a nagging loss is experienced. Few are able to stay and self actualize. Exceptions prove the rule. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:37 am Post subject: |
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I have no regrets about coming here whatsoever, but I sometimes hate being here. Korea can be a frustrating place for a foreigner because no matter how hard you try, you will always be an outsider. I am not exactly enamored with the country, the people, or the culture but I realise how fortunate I am. My job is fairly easy and I have very little serious responsibility, but I know that I will never call this place home.
The UK is a wonderful place for those lucky people who can afford to live in a nice 'middle class' area devoid of crime, and in affluent cachtment areas. Unfortunately, I have never been able to afford that, and I probably never will. Like millions of people in the UK, I was born poor and will die the same way.
Ultimately, no matter how much I complain about Korea, I am better off here. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Old fat expat wrote: |
| As I have read this I thought of Maslow's hierarchy. Some are happy to get the basics met. This is as it should be at the start. It does seem that, for many, the longer you stay the greater the sense of a nagging loss is experienced. Few are able to stay and self actualize. Exceptions prove the rule. |
Not necessarily disagreeing with you, Expat, but I hate this phrase. Exceptions prove that the rule is wrong, actually.
The original phrase, from legal documents, written in Latin, is exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis, which I would explain as meaning: "The existence of a stated exception proves that a rule exists, even if that rule is not stated (or posted)." An example of this would be a sign saying, "Free Parking on Sundays." As a stated exception, that sign would "prove" that the rule "One must pay for parking" is in effect at all other times.
Carry on.... |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Old fat expat wrote: |
| Few are able to stay and self actualize. |
You could say the same of many who stayed at home in the west.
I see your point in terms of careerwise.
But in other ways living in a foreign country liberates you - and fulfils your self-realization- in a way that staying at home never can.
I still regard this country as a daily foreign exotic adventure, even after being here many years.
| Quote: |
| the longer you stay the greater the sense of a nagging loss is experienced |
Lol.
Personally I have never framed my life by conventional expectations, so it doesn't really bother me that much.
There is danger of stagnating here though, getting comfy and gradually forgetting your ambitions. After a while you just work without thinking and time flies by.
| cj1976 wrote: |
| The UK is a wonderful place for those lucky people who can afford to live in a nice 'middle class' area devoid of crime, and in affluent cachtment areas. |
Exactly.
And unless you start out that way and rigidly maintain it, then you have no chance.
Unfortunately sticking on the treadmill for the sakle of that mortgage and that promotion will ultimately leave you an empty husk. A tiny-minded dullard. |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:34 am Post subject: |
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If I was from the UK I'd be lifing it in SKorea too. The women alone would keep me there.
The dating scene in the UK is just bloody horrible. Loud, binge drinking, fat , tasteless tramp stamp tattoos come to mind (wow that was harsh). No wonder you blokes love Seoul. Can't say I blame ya. |
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Neozenha
Joined: 08 Mar 2013
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| misher wrote: |
If I was from the UK I'd be lifing it in SKorea too. The women alone would keep me there.
The dating scene in the UK is just bloody horrible. Loud, binge drinking, fat , tasteless tramp stamp tattoos come to mind (wow that was harsh). No wonder you blokes love Seoul. Can't say I blame ya. |
The women alone will keep you there lol. |
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rockbilly
Joined: 19 Mar 2013
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:56 am Post subject: Korea Today |
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Korea today offers one of the best places on earth to live and enjoy life . . . if . . .
you've got a decent set-up (job, home, etc.) and . . .
you square up to the truth of what's true here. Koreans were barbarians for 5000 years until the Japanese showed up a hundred-odd years ago and forced them to stop keeping slaves, chopping Christians' heads off, and so forth.
If you can handle the fact that everything you hear about Korea's glorious history is a lie, and that everyone around you has been brainwashed, OK.
Just deal with the present. Korea's greatness, such as it is, owes infinitely more to the Samsung Galaxy than to a few desolate small rocks in the Sea of Japan, or to any other delusion of grandeur (Koguryeo, Baekdu-birth of world-leading Kim dynasty, Korean invention of sauerkraut and of Chinese pictographs, what have you).
Very, very rarely, you will meet a Korean person who is educated and honest and sees through all the fictions.
You might even just be treated kindly by the occasional Korean who isn't a jerk. They do exist.
Meanwhile, enjoy the good things here. |
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thisisausername
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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I find certain aspects of this culture a bit depressing...
원장님, we've sorted through the resumes and narrowed it down to two potential candidates.
Alright let's hear about them.
The first is an American male. He completed his undergraduate studies at UC Berkley in Elementary Education and then went to Sanford University for a Masters in TOSEL. He's been working in Korea for for the past 5 years after having taught in an American Public school for 3 years. So, altogether he has 8 years of teaching experience. He also has highly complementary letters of recommendation from his previous employers, both in Korea and in the USA.
8 years of teaching experience? How old is he?
He's 33.
Let me see his photo. Hmm, he could stand to lose a few kilos don't you think? How much does he weigh?
He actually didn't put his weight on his resume.
Hmm, I see. And the other candidate?
The other is an American female from Texas. She has a BA in Psychology from Houston Community college. She's 23 years old.
Hmm, has she ever been abroad? Does she have any experience working with children?
Well, nothing on her resume seems to indicate that she has. However, here is her picture.
Hmm, she's a very beautiful girl. I love her blonde hair.
Yes I was having a hard time choosing which candidate was best for our academy. This is going to be a very difficult decision.
Hmm, well I think is this case we have to think of the children and what is best for their education. It seems clear to me that this girl from Houston will make the children feel very happy. This will increase the overall well being of our academy making it easier for the children to study. Its clear she is more suited for our academy.
Of course you are right 원장님. Excellent choice!
And then when it doesn't work out and the academy keeps losing students, 원장님 jumps from the roof of his apartment complex. |
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Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Gadfly:
| Quote: |
| The existence of a stated exception proves that a rule exists |
That was exactly my intent in anticipation of posters who would say they know of someone who has lived here for eons and is happy. I consider them to be an exception. The fact that they are an exception proves the rule has value. Carry on.
Julius:
Yeah, self actualization. Few achieve it no matter what environment they live in. I would say though that almost all expats that I have met have no intention of retiring here. They all seem to be working to get the seed money to retire elsewhere. Ask yourself: If I win lotto will I buy an apartment in Gangnam? There are exceptions to this rule (see above).
Actually I was referring to Maslow as it seemed many posters were arguing over issues that actually fit into Maslow's framework. Neither side being wrong. Many happy to have security, others unhappy as their security has become their status-quo and are now looking for fulfillment in more esoteric areas.
And no, I do not in any way conform to other expectations. Why can't the nagging self doubt come from my own expectations. Project much? Ha Ha |
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