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Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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Underwaterbob

Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Location: In Cognito
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Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| One can choose to read eslcafe or not. It's hardly the same as finding the side of your house painted with a threatening message. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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To spray paint a political message on someone's house is a threat to the whole family. Regardless of the content of the message, the message says, "I know where you, your spouse and your children live. They are at my mercy. Furthermore, I hold my opinions superior to the law in respect to your rights." Yes, I would say that spray painting a home is terrorist threat.
Most people also consider this:
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| To inflict economic damage |
to be beyond the law.
Scenario: You come home from work on Monday evening to find all the clothes in your closet ripped to shreds. The cops stumble on Mr. X who confesses, "I disagree with her political views. I wanted to make her pay for her beliefs." Would you accept that as a legitimate excuse and drop the charges? |
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Lunar Groove Gardener
Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Location: 1987 Subaru
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Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Rarely has a country's flag been as laughably prevalent as Canada's is on the person of Canadians in Korea.
It's on many a Canadian's T-shirts, backpacks, pencils, socks and who knows what else.
During decades of travel I have played sports and socialized with people from countries in the height of their specific unpopularity: America, England, Nicaragua, Somalia, Russia,
S. Africa, Iran, Iraq, Columbia, China etc.
Never was it regarded as useful, positive or necessary to regard each other as political entities.
Clearly we all represent our countries, as individuals, but in most cases not our government.
However, in the unique case of the Canadian this onus would, by all appearances, be paramount.
I never once felt any inclination that a Canadian flag would make me feel better about making friends with anyone.
I refer of course to what is commonly heralded as the "I'm not American" flag.
With time a traveler can expect to succumb to the reality that being from whatever country does not increase the odds of one's being good company, or good in any aspect.
One busy proving first who they aren't is likely not yet in command of who it is they truly are.
A self-assigned "scarlet letter", signifies all too often to be the harbinger of someone philosophically nascent, fresh to this larger world and fearful.
As to "hey", "ey", "eh", "oy";
spoken English of the world is full of such utterances, no one country owns them (though some may try to deny them). |
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blurgalurgalurga
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| I have yet to notice anybody wearing a maple leaf on their bag here. Is it really that common? |
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Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Location: National treasures need homes
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
To spray paint a political message on someone's house is a threat to the whole family. Regardless of the content of the message, the message says, "I know where you, your spouse and your children live. They are at my mercy. Furthermore, I hold my opinions superior to the law in respect to your rights." Yes, I would say that spray painting a home is terrorist threat.
Most people also consider this:
| Quote: |
| To inflict economic damage |
to be beyond the law.
Scenario: You come home from work on Monday evening to find all the clothes in your closet ripped to shreds. The cops stumble on Mr. X who confesses, "I disagree with her political views. I wanted to make her pay for her beliefs." Would you accept that as a legitimate excuse and drop the charges? |
It wouldn't be "terrorism." Not all illegal acts are terrorism. They should charge the person in proportion to the seriousness of the crime, but putting him away for 20 years or more when many violent criminals get lighter sentences would be a travesty of justice.
Also, it's frustrating to see the way some people are treating this discussion. This isn�t an abstract mental exercise, and ALF actions aren�t on a par with some hypothetical protest against "political views." We�re talking about real animals who are being harmed now, and who will continue to be harmed tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that.
ALF activists save animals from certain death ... and in cases where they're powerless to save the animals, they make their disagreement clear in no uncertain terms. I don't support actions that endanger lives, but I'd support almost anything short of that in cases where the rights of individual animals are clearly being violated (e.g., in �fur farms,� slaughterhouses and vivisection labs). If people are really against violence, they should oppose the violent imprisonment and slaughter of animals.
The ELF is a different story and I�ve never taken a position on it one way or another � but its actions make me think. We all support the destruction of animal habitats in some way, and I know I don�t live simply enough. When I hear about people going to jail to stop the destruction of natural areas, I have to reflect on my own choices and consider whether I�m really doing all I can to avoid unnecessary consumption. Probably not. I think it�s really sad that the brave people who could be leading the way forward for the rest of us are in danger of rotting away in prison. It seems like a real waste.
I�m also concerned about the rise of draconian �anti-terrorist� laws, not only in the United States, but in Canada and many other countries too. These laws are being used to crush dissent, not to protect anyone from �violence.� The ELF is their target now, but I�m sure it won�t be long before they expand their focus. None of us will have any freedom at all if they�re allowed to stand unchallenged.
Last edited by Bramble on Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:55 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Bramble wrote: |
| It wouldn't be "terrorism." Not all illegal acts are terrorism, even those that are considered serious crimes under the law. They should charge the person in proportion to the seriousness of the crime, but putting him away for 20 years or more when many violent criminals get lighter sentences would be a travesty of justice. |
Arson is a crime of violence. Arsonists are violent criminals. It's terrorism precisely because of what Yata said - the motivation is one's political views, and the methods are designed to cause fear.
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| Spray-painting a nasty message on a wall counts as terrorism if it hurts someone's feelings, according to you. |
It's not hurting people's feelings - it's performing violence and making threats of more violence to cause others to change their behavior. The legal term, of course, is extortion. Because the behavioral change is a political one, it is terrorism, the use of fear in pursauitg of politcal goals.
There are nonviolent means to create changes in political behavior. If such were not the case, I might have a tiny amount of sympathy. Your consistent aim is to change the meanings of words so that they don't apply to your friends but still apply to others who commit similar actions. It's not a viable route to reality, I'm afraid. |
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Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Location: National treasures need homes
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Extortion?
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| Extortion, outwresting, or exaction is a criminal offense, which occurs when a person either unlawfully obtains money, property or services from a person, entity, or institution through coercion or intimidation or threatens a person, entity, or institution with physical or reputational harm unless he or she is paid money or property. |
Doesn't sound remotely like it to me. In any case, these discussions with you tend to get boring and repetitive and I'm sure there are better ways to waste time ... |
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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This includes behavioral changes. Stop testing medicines on animals or risk another bombing. Stop building homes here, or we'll burn you down again. Stop serving fois gra or we'll break your windows a second time.
Of course it's boring, Bramble. What do you expect. You treat this like religion, invcenting definitions which no one else uses and later claiming you never did any such thing. There ARE no responsible people who think that arson is not a tool of terrorism, Bramble. Merely saying so doesn't make it so. |
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Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Location: National treasures need homes
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Bobster: You're a liar. You can throw around your libellous accusations when I say it's OK for animal rights activists to hijack an airplane or kidnap randomly selected victims. Until then, just stop lying.
Do you see anything on these pages that sounds remotely like the ALF or ELF?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_conventions_on_terrorism
http://www.un.org/terrorism/instruments.shtml
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11. 1997 International Convention for the Suppression of Terrorist Bombings (Terrorist Bombing Convention)
Creates a regime of universal jurisdiction over the unlawful and intentional use of explosives and other lethal devices in, into, or against various defined public places with intent to kill or cause serious bodily injury, or with intent to cause extensive destruction of the public place. |
Here's more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
�Other�
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| The Supreme Court of India adopted Alex P. Schmid's definition of terrorism in a 2003 ruling (Madan Singh vs. State of Bihar), "defin[ing] acts of terrorism veritably as 'peacetime equivalents of war crimes.'"[11] |
Footnote No. 11:
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| ^ UN Reform. United Nations (2005-03-21). Retrieved on 2007-10-11. �The second part of the report, entitled "Freedom from Fear backs the definition of terrorism - an issue so divisive agreement on it has long eluded the world community - as any action "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act."� |
Hijacking aircraft. Taking hostages. Poisoning VIPs. Bombing public places with intent to kill random, unsuspecting people. Does that sound like the ALF or ELF?
Breaking windows. Spray-painting a message on a wall. Does that sound like a crime deserving of decades of imprisonment? To you and Bush, maybe. To any sane and decent individual, I think not. |
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Without even bothering to look at the source, just reading your quotes: yes, it's ALF/ELF.
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| or with intent to cause extensive destruction of the public place. |
That means property,you know.
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| "defin[ing] acts of terrorism veritably as 'peacetime equivalents of war crimes.'"[11] |
Arson might well be a war crime, depending on circumstances - might depend on defns of "war crime" which are not provided here.
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| with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act. |
That's the part you were carefully avoiding putting in bold type. Odd, isn't it? I guess you just forgot.
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| Breaking windows. Spray-painting a message on a wall. Does that sound like a crime deserving of decades imprisonment? To you and Bush, maybe. To any sane and decent individual, I think not. |
Yata thinks a message on a wall qualifies, and I agree, especially if the message is a threat. Whatever ewlse, it's definitely not free speech.
You keep forgetting to mention arson when you make these lists. You know, exploding SUVs, homes that burn to the ground, and bombs that destroy research labs. Odd, the things you forget to mention. Hah, I guess you just forgot ...
"Reaching ... lying ... twisting ... "
I know you are, but what am I? Neener neener neener!
Would you mind, please, pinpointing for me where I made any accusation, let alone a libelous one? |
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Bramble

Joined: 26 Jan 2007 Location: National treasures need homes
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| You know what, there's really no point in trying to discuss anything with you. You're a disgraceful excuse for a human being. Have you ever managed to carry on a conversation on these forums without reverting to your usual MO? You are deliberately repeating statements you know to be false. You are intentionally misreading other people's words, and misrepresenting the meaning of the text right in front of you. You are knowingly misapplying a loaded, inflammatory term that gets people sentenced to decades in prison, and which governments use to justify freezing bank accounts and taking other extraordinary measures to suspend civil liberties. It takes a special kind of pathological liar to behave as you do on these boards, and a very �special� kind of moderator to allow it. I�m done with this conversation. |
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shapeshifter

Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Location: Paris
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Assuming you're over the age of twelve, you two are both absolutely ridiculous. Is this petty squabbling meant to pass for philosophical debate?
Neither of one of you appears to be particularly bright, yet you're both unduly impressed by your own spurious and clumsily-expressed arguments.
Do yourselves a favour and find a different hobby, preferably one that's more useful and better suited to your respective abilities. |
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I�m done with this conversation. |
After accusing me of making libelous accusations. What are they?
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| You are knowingly misapplying a loaded, inflammatory term that gets people sentenced to decades in prison, and which governments use to justify freezing bank accounts and taking other extraordinary measures to suspend civil liberties. |
Govts sometimes do those things when they are trying to protect their citizens from harm. You know? And I'm not inventing anything - most people who are "responsible" would concur that the actions of these groups are sufficient for the label we have applied to it. It includes, by the way, just about every law enforcement agency you can name.
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| You're a disgraceful excuse for a human being. |
Please stop complimenting me. You are making me blush. |
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| shapeshifter wrote: |
| Do yourselves a favour and find a different hobby, preferably one that's more useful and better suited to your respective abilities. |
I can't speak for the other person, but I'm enjoying myself.
I understand that your advice is offered in sincere kindness and a wish to help me better my life. We are very fortunate that someone of your compassion and wisdom happened to wander by.  |
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Shredd

Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Location: Pusan, South Korea
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Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| AD Hominem!!!! |
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