|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
|
 Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:56 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| GENO123 wrote: |
| tophatcat wrote: |
| GENO123 wrote: |
One can not support a fanily or pay back loanson 3.5 (2.7 2.8 take home. ) You could do privates but universities try to suppress f class xisas..
What is known as contact hours means nothing.
That is the the big picture minus the double talk. |
I'm in my 50s. I've been teaching for over 30 years. I've come in contact with hundreds, if not thousands, of teachers. You are the first person that I've encountered that hasn't known that teaching requires time outside of the classroom. |
Of cousre it does. However that is why it is dumb to measure university conditions with contact hours.
It has always been total work and trouble versus total pay
Glad to clear that up |
You haven't cleared anything up. Everyone on this board knows that. And it doesn't make a university bad when it advertises 12 teaching hours + 3 office hours. Everyone knows that it takes some prep time and grading time. If you are good, you can get much of this done in the office time. If I take my suit to the cleaners or drive to work that's all in it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
candy bar
Joined: 03 Dec 2012
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| GENO123 wrote: |
They dont pay much and stuff f class visas candybar.. Together. That among other things is ehy they are bas..
Short of a phd what do they pay for higher qualifications? |
Get a PhD.
None of my friends have been stuffed. They are all happy with their jobs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Get a PhD just to get/keep a low paying job teaching EFL classes? That's terrible advice. The bar keeps getting raised higher and higher; at some point it seems foolish to go along with it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| candy bar wrote: |
| GENO123 wrote: |
They dont pay much and stuff f class visas candybar.. Together. That among other things is ehy they are bas..
Short of a phd what do they pay for higher qualifications? |
Get a PhD.
None of my friends have been stuffed. They are all happy with their jobs. |
thwy beat the system or else they have minimal expenses..
As for none of your friends being stffed they signed a conyract thst says one cany work for anyone else.
My description of conditions is accurate. It is right to tell about what really goes on at such places.
Last edited by GENO123 on Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:52 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| tophatcat wrote: |
| GENO123 wrote: |
| tophatcat wrote: |
| GENO123 wrote: |
One can not support a family or pay back loans on 3.5 (2.7 2.8 take home. ) You could do privates but universities try to suppress f class visas..
What is known as contact hours means nothing.
That is the the big picture minus the double talk. |
I'm in my 50s. I've been teaching for over 30 years. I've come in contact with hundreds, if not thousands, of teachers. You are the first person that I've encountered that hasn't known that teaching requires time outside of the classroom. |
Of cousre it does. However that is why it is dumb to measure university conditions with contact hours.
It has always been total work and trouble versus total pay
Glad to clear that up |
You haven't cleared anything up. Everyone on this board knows that. And it doesn't make a university bad when it advertises 12 teaching hours + 3 office hours. Everyone knows that it takes some prep time and grading time. If you are good, you can get much of this done in the office time. If I take my suit to the cleaners or drive to work that's all in it. |
It doesnt work that way at big famous schools. The required work is fargreater than you descrbed what was in that blog was in no way reflective of work requirements at big famous schools. Whether one is good or not. Glad to clear this up to.
Univerdities dont pay severence .that makes the salary less than what they say. On a hogwon scale.
People who claim contact hours are representive of total working conditions are the job are bad.
Contact hours means nothing.
real working conditions:
SungKuenGwan
| Quote: |
| oh, if you were directing that grading comment at me, obviously there's a huge amount of difference in the TYPE of grading one is responsible for and time spent outside of clas...for example at sunggyunwan where they make you teach entire semester of writing classes and then another semester of "presentation" classes (I'm pretty sure SNU is simiar)...there would obviously be significantly more grading time involved (essays) then just teaching some conversation 101class with interchange or whatever..as someone who claims to have taught esl before that should have been blatantly obvious..just saying'! |
Last edited by GENO123 on Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
They dont pay much and stuff f class visas . Together. That among other things is ehy they are bad . what is good about them?
Vacations are good everything else is a negative. The vacations in no way make up for that.big famous schools treat teachers worse than servants |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PRagic
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Have to side with TopHatCat on this one. Every teacher knows that there are grading and admin responsibilities that fall outside the stated boundaries of 'contact hours'. If you're well trained, experienced, and good at what you do, time relegated to these responsibilties can indeed be kept to a minimum.
Just saw a full time adjunct position advertised back in the U.S. 5K a course, 5 courses a year with multiple preps, and no paid breaks. And you're not even guaranteed a job when the year ends!
And this is Korea, a very hierarchal society. Doesn't take a full on lit review to realize that this, then, translates into hierarchal management structures at K organizations, inclusive of universities.
The most successful K university ESLers I know take the attitude with a grain of salt and let it roll off their collective backs. At universities here, the coin of the realm is the Ph.D. Don't have one? You're down in the pecking order and no K manager or senior faculty member will be in any hurry to value your opinion when it comes to program developmen or teacher rights and treatment. Learn to accept that and your job will be all the more easier. Insist on fair and equal treatment and you'll be screaming foul on these boards all the time.
Even if you have a Ph.D., if you're still in an adjunct slot, you're treatment probably won't be much better. They'll be stoked to have you, but not that pressed to keep you if you push. As I've said on other threads, if you want a level playing field, you need to go tenure track, publish, and do all the student guidance, professional service, and admin stuff that comes with the territory.
No matter your degree level, get the best job you can and hold on to it up until the point where any slide in employment conditions make staying a thorn in your side.
So let's take the SNU example. They cleaned house many moons ago be changing the pay structure and currently it isn't one of the best longer-term job prospects out there. Used to be a great, if not the best, place to work; now it's above standard, but leaves a lot to be desired for anyone seeking long term employment. So what? If it's better than you have now, give it a go. Get in, get out, and move up. Is there a superior attitude there that some may find tough to swallow? That may very well be, but see above. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="PRagic"]
| Quote: |
| Have to side with TopHatCat on this one. Every teacher knows that there are grading and admin responsibilities that fall outside the stated boundaries of 'contact hours'. If you're well trained, experienced, and good at what you do, time relegated to these responsibilties can indeed be kept to a minimum. |
Not when your out of class work is more than double or triple your contact hours (or even more ) it can't and doesn't.
It comes down and always has to the total number of classes , the total number of students and the amount of work required for each class rather than the number of contact hours.
| Quote: |
| If you're well trained, experienced, and good at what you do, time relegated to these responsibilties can indeed be kept to a minimum. |
No not with the way schedules are now set up.
| Quote: |
So let's take the SNU example. They cleaned house many moons ago be changing the pay structure and currently it isn't one of the best longer-term job prospects out there. Used to be a great, if not the best, place to work; now it's above standard, but leaves a lot to be desired for anyone seeking long term employment. So what? If it's better than you have now, give it a go. Get in, get out, and move up. Is there a superior attitude there that some may find tough to swallow? That may very well be, but see above. |
The SNU example is the way it is at most places.
THE REAL AMOUNT OF WORK .
| Quote: |
| oh, if you were directing that grading comment at me, obviously there's a huge amount of difference in the TYPE of grading one is responsible for and time spent outside of clas...for example at sunggyunwan where they make you teach entire semester of writing classes and then another semester of "presentation" classes (I'm pretty sure SNU is simiar)...there would obviously be significantly more grading time involved (essays) then just teaching some conversation 101class with interchange or whatever..as someone who claims to have taught esl before that should have been blatantly obvious..just saying'! |
But it has gotten even worse recently
REAL CONDITIONS AT REAL NAME UNIVERSITIES Sad to say the following are not exceptional cases rather they are the norm.
What is going on at Hong Ik is now happening at other places as well
Hong IK
| Quote: |
| don't forget our friends at Hongik Univ who are docking teachers 80k/class hour/week when you lose classes to drop you below 15 hours/week. Of course you make it up the following semester as OT but your are only paid 28k/hour for that and can only make up 6 hours/semester |
| Quote: |
My uni job used to be one of the best around until they upped the hours to 15 and changed the contract so we lose 720,000W a month if a class gets cancelled (which happens to about 25% of teachers every semester). I think you know which uni I'm talking about.
I got my MA TESOL in the UK back in 2007 and got it primarily to get my current job, which I started in 2009. I was lucky to get in at the first time of applying a year or two before (it seemed) every other foreign teacher in Korea (and their dogs) had an MA TESOL.
Despite the fact that I'll have 6 years of uni teaching experience (with good evaluations and 'best teacher' awards) and a CELTA at the end of my current contract, I've told my wife not to hold her breath for me to get another uni job if I'm not renewed. In fact I'm almost assuming I'll be opening a study room when the non-renewal comes (if I don't jump before, which I'm seriously considering at the moment -many colleagues have already bailed from this supposedly 'highly-prized' position).
Although of course the vacation is still great, would I study for an MA TESOL now in order to try to get a Korean uni job? You'd have to be nuts. |
REAL WORKING CONDITIONS BELOW:
| Quote: |
However in reality this isn't the case. I don't care how much vacation you get. The pay downright sucks.
Oh you can do camps and corporates because your hours are low and you have vacation? Well then yes you'll make a decent salary. But then you're working 40 hours like the rest of us and having the stress of commuting between different jobs, dealing with all the issues one job would give x2 x3.
Show me a uni job that has 12 contact hours a week, 20 weeks vacation and pays 5-6 million Won a month. No publication pressure or BS committee work either. You know one of those dream "I work an 18 hour week MAX and take off to Thailand for 3 months" type jobs that esl uni teachers like to brag about.
You either get paid decently but have to work for it and have the pieces of paper or BS "qualifications" some on here like to bang on about, OR you have a uni job that requires very little BUT PAYS VERY LITTLE. |
THEN THERE IS THE QUESTION OF IF WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU IF YOU GET CAUGHT DOING WORK OUTSIDE THE SCHOOL . IT GOES BACK TO THE QUESTION DO UNIVERSITIES ATTEMPT TO SUPPRESS F CLASS VISAS? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PRagic
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2016 7:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Again with the circular arguments. Yes, some jobs are better than others. Yes, some classes require more prep and grading.
Simple supply and demand, though, in that employment conditions will only continue to deteriorate at some places up until the point where people stop applying. In the mean time, some places will cut costs in the face of shrinking student numbers anyway they can. Some places, to the contrary, will continue to value professional teachers and to pay them accordingly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Sun May 01, 2016 9:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PRagic wrote: |
Again with the circular arguments. Yes, some jobs are better than others. Yes, some classes require more prep and grading.
Simple supply and demand, though, in that employment conditions will only continue to deteriorate at some places up until the point where people stop applying. In the mean time, some places will cut costs in the face of shrinking student numbers anyway they can. Some places, to the contrary, will continue to value professional teachers and to pay them accordingly. |
What is a professional teacher? Is Hong Ik a good job? How about SNU? The problems aren't limited to those two schools . Other schools do exactly the same stuff the problem is wide spread and far reaching.
At most schools the take home ( using the same standard which is used for hogwons) is usually LESS than 2.8 Million. And you are putting in much more work than just your "contact hours" KEY MUCH MORE . In fact I will say - "vastly more" and to make what as known as "contact hours" completely irrelevant to the discussion
Anyway schools can pay what they wish but then they also attempt to restrict and flat out suppress teachers , effectively dooming their economic prospects.
One can not support a family and / or pay back loans on a university salary. More than a few teachers beat the system and do extra work outside the school anyway .But what they earn is not because of the university but in spite of the University .
A job where one does not earn enough to support and family and / or pay off loans and then turns around and says you can't earn money outside the school isn't a good job - period
Schools can do as they please but they are responsible for the conditions they offer , the rules they put into practice and they ought to be shown for what they really are : a sham and an evil trick.
All in all and by in large l they are not good jobs. They don't pay teachers well nor, do they treat teachers well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 6:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, the pay for teaching ESL is decent. Plus, a lot of people use the time to get other qualifications and go into something else.
Then again, a lot of people will come on the forum and cry saying... "waa, I don't have a high salary for teaching ESL to freshmen". Personally, I feel they get more than enough of a salary considering the job. 3 million a month for teaching English for 12 hours a week is more than some skilled Korean employees get. If teachers feel they can't support a family on this salary. Basically, life is tough. They can continue blaming the Korean ESL industry all they want for all their shortcomings..... or get the qualifications so that they can get a different job, or a tenured professor job.
Tenured foreign professors get looked after. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
Well, the pay for teaching ESL is decent. Plus, a lot of people use the time to get other qualifications and go into something else.
Then again, a lot of people will come on the forum and cry saying... "waa, I don't have a high salary for teaching ESL to freshmen". Personally, I feel they get more than enough of a salary considering the job. 3 million a month for teaching English for 12 hours a week is more than some skilled Korean employees get. If teachers feel they can't support a family on this salary. Basically, life is tough. They can continue blaming the Korean ESL industry all they want for all their shortcomings..... or get the qualifications so that they can get a different job, or a tenured professor job.
Tenured foreign professors get looked after. |
3 million does not match up all that well with korean salaries actually.
U work much much more than 12 hours. What is known as contact hours means nothing More importantly They supress f class visas. Korean universities are responsible for the conditions they offer. I guess you would prefer that no one challage the university version of conditions.
In fact your description of the job matches the korean university version of the job and it is like that at all in practice. 3 m is hogwon money pretty much
In the normal world if you need money you work more. But korean universitys think they own you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Malislamusrex
Joined: 01 Feb 2010
|
| Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| GENO123 wrote: |
3 million does not match up all that well with korean salaries actually.
U work much much more than 12 hours. What is known as contact hours means nothing More importantly They supress f class visas. Korean universities are responsible for the conditions they offer. I guess you would prefer that no one challage the university version of conditions.
In fact your description of the job matches the korean university version of the job and it is like that at all in practice. 3 m is hogwon money pretty much |
Challenge the uni conditions all you want. I'm just pointing out the obvious here.
Universities and most Koreans think that a Hogwon teacher and a English language uni teacher are the same thing. A uni esl teachers that puts a professor title in front of their name, then gets bent out of shape for not getting a 'professor' salary is delusional.
They think you are worth 3 mil, so that's the salary. Universities don't really want people with qualifications. 5 years ago, a pulse and a BA would have done.
With papers published in top international journals, I'm sure you'd have more options. The fact you aren't happy with the going rate when you are easily replaceable means nothing to university admin. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GENO123
Joined: 28 Jan 2010
|
| Posted: Thu May 05, 2016 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Malislamusrex wrote: |
| GENO123 wrote: |
3 million does not match up all that well with korean salaries actually.
U work much much more than 12 hours. What is known as contact hours means nothing More importantly They supress f class visas. Korean universities are responsible for the conditions they offer. I guess you would prefer that no one challage the university version of conditions.
In fact your description of the job matches the korean university version of the job and it is like that at all in practice. 3 m is hogwon money pretty much |
Challenge the uni conditions all you want. I'm just pointing out the obvious here.
Universities and most Koreans think that a Hogwon teacher and a English language uni teacher are the same thing. A uni esl teachers that puts a professor title in front of their name, then gets bent out of shape for not getting a 'professor' salary is delusional.
They think you are worth 3 mil, so that's the salary. Universities don't really want people with qualifications. 5 years ago, a pulse and a BA would have done.
With papers published in top international journals, I'm sure you'd have more options. The fact you aren't happy with the going rate when you are easily replaceable means nothing to university admin. |
There is a lot of truth to what you said.
But the problem is not what they think you are worth in so much as that they think they own you |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
