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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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Thomas Jefferson thought it was every 20.
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Washington thought otherwise: This government, the offspring of our own choice, uninfluenced and unawed, adopted upon full investigation and mature deliberation, completely free in its principles, in the distribution of its powers, uniting security with energy, and containing within itself a provision for its own amendment, has a just claim to your confidence and your support. Respect for its authority, compliance with its laws, acquiescence in its measures, are duties enjoined by the fundamental maxims of true liberty. The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. The very idea of the power and the right of the people to establish government presupposes the duty of every individual to obey the established government. |
I agree. When you have a system like ours, you try your very hardest to work within the system. It balances being astonishingly flexible with also being a strong guarantor of individual liberties. The more I learn about our Constitution and system of law, the more I am impressed. |
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jkelly80

Joined: 13 Jun 2007 Location: you boys like mexico?
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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Thomas Jefferson thought it was every 20.
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Washington thought otherwise: This government, the offspring of our own choice, uninfluenced and unawed, adopted upon full investigation and mature deliberation, completely free in its principles, in the distribution of its powers, uniting security with energy, and containing within itself a provision for its own amendment, has a just claim to your confidence and your support. Respect for its authority, compliance with its laws, acquiescence in its measures, are duties enjoined by the fundamental maxims of true liberty. The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. The very idea of the power and the right of the people to establish government presupposes the duty of every individual to obey the established government. |
I agree. When you have a system like ours, you try your very hardest to work within the system. It balances being astonishingly flexible with also being a strong guarantor of individual liberties. The more I learn about our Constitution and system of law, the more I am impressed. |
I think that the US Constitution, compared to those of the rest of Western states, is probably one of the least "democratic" documents among them, although I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
Its worst failure was allowing for 80 years of slavery and a 14th Amendment powerless to address the Jim Crow reconstruction South. I do find its flexibility impressive, though. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| jkelly80 wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
Thomas Jefferson thought it was every 20.
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Washington thought otherwise: This government, the offspring of our own choice, uninfluenced and unawed, adopted upon full investigation and mature deliberation, completely free in its principles, in the distribution of its powers, uniting security with energy, and containing within itself a provision for its own amendment, has a just claim to your confidence and your support. Respect for its authority, compliance with its laws, acquiescence in its measures, are duties enjoined by the fundamental maxims of true liberty. The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. The very idea of the power and the right of the people to establish government presupposes the duty of every individual to obey the established government. |
I agree. When you have a system like ours, you try your very hardest to work within the system. It balances being astonishingly flexible with also being a strong guarantor of individual liberties. The more I learn about our Constitution and system of law, the more I am impressed. |
I think that the US Constitution, compared to those of the rest of Western states, is probably one of the least "democratic" documents among them, although I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
Its worst failure was allowing for 80 years of slavery and a 14th Amendment powerless to address the Jim Crow reconstruction South. I do find its flexibility impressive, though. |
Oh, definitly. The worst failure was by far the failure we had to fight a war over in which over a million Americans died.
Jefferson, by the way, would have considered a violent revolution every 80 years stagnation. Personally, I think Jefferson is heavily over-rated. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I neglected to cite the source of that quote. Sorry.
It's from Washington's Farewell Address of 1796. At one time, the Address was read at July 4th celebrations and memorized by school kids. It perhaps should be again. The whole Address can be found here: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm
And yes, the Constitution is an impressive document, especially in light of the fact it was designed by a committee. Some of its most important features were arrived at by compromise, therefore somewhat accidentally, since no one set out with the end result in mind.
One of its key features, the amendment process whereby the people can, through 'an explicit and authentic act', change the government, was a radical and unique idea at the time. It takes away the need for revolutions. Regularly scheduled elections function in the same way, allowing change before pressure builds too high.
I highly recommend David Kyvig's "Explicit and Authentic Acts: Amending the US Constitution, 1776-1995". It illuminates the process of amendments and explains how each of the amendments was added. It's the best book on Constitutional history I've ever read.
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| probably one of the least "democratic" documents |
This should not be too surprising, since it was not meant to be democratic. Our constitution is a mixed constitution, influenced by the Roman Republic, with monarchical, republican and democratic features.
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| Personally, I think Jefferson is heavily over-rated. |
The more I read about Washington, the more I admire and respect him. The more I read about Jefferson, the less I find to admire and respect.
It should be noted that Jefferson had nothing to do with writing the Constitution. He was in France. He ended up supporting ratification because Madison convinced him to. |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Paul: Secretive Elite Control America
02-01-2008
Press TV
Presidential candidate Ron Paul says he traces America's problems to the flawed monetary policy of the wealthy and secretive elite.
During a speech at the University of Washington on Thursday, Paul said the Congress and the Federal Reserve will not be able to stem the recession spurred by the home mortgage meltdown.
"The most important thing you can do is nothing," said the Texas congressman, who voted against the recent $146 billion economic stimulus package passed by the US House of Representatives.
The 10-term Texas congressman maintained that a series of wrong economic decisions by the Bush administration has led to a recession.
The government should allow the market to correct itself, Paul added.
Although the mainstream media attempts to keep a low profile on the 72-year-old presidential hopeful, he has managed to find a staunch group of supporters who say he has captured their hearts with his 'message of freedom' and constitutionalism.
"The Constitution was written for one specific purpose and that was to restrain the government, not to restrain the people," Paul has said.
http://www.roguegovernment.com/news.php?id=6413 |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Location: Goseong
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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More spam, yawn!
Here's a picture of IGTG with her tinfoil hat:
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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What do you have to say re: the issues Dave?
Apparently nothing  |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Location: Goseong
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I have plenty to say (in fact I already said it). I'm not sure which is worse, your level of reading comprehension or your attention span. It says very little for you, when all you can do is chronically spam the board with youtube clips and conspiracy theories. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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It is spam when you post the ravings of RP on a thread about what foreigners are saying about the US election. Unfortunately, RP is one of ours, so what he says about a secret elite is not relevant.
Please stop spamming. |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| I have plenty to say (in fact I already said it). |
Well, then maybe you should say ( i.e. TYPE ) less, as most of your "Strange-Brew" drivel has
not made much of a substantive impression
"Ravings" ???
"spamming" ???
Nice try ...
Thanks for noting my handi-work all the same.
btw - You support the occult elite's agenda?
THE WORLD IS WATCHING.
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Please stop spamming. |
Please stop whining?

Last edited by igotthisguitar on Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:39 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I neglected to cite the source of that quote. Sorry.
It's from Washington's Farewell Address of 1796. At one time, the Address was read at July 4th celebrations and memorized by school kids. It perhaps should be again. The whole Address can be found here: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm
And yes, the Constitution is an impressive document, especially in light of the fact it was designed by a committee. Some of its most important features were arrived at by compromise, therefore somewhat accidentally, since no one set out with the end result in mind.
One of its key features, the amendment process whereby the people can, through 'an explicit and authentic act', change the government, was a radical and unique idea at the time. It takes away the need for revolutions. Regularly scheduled elections function in the same way, allowing change before pressure builds too high.
I highly recommend David Kyvig's "Explicit and Authentic Acts: Amending the US Constitution, 1776-1995". It illuminates the process of amendments and explains how each of the amendments was added. It's the best book on Constitutional history I've ever read.
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| probably one of the least "democratic" documents |
This should not be too surprising, since it was not meant to be democratic. Our constitution is a mixed constitution, influenced by the Roman Republic, with monarchical, republican and democratic features.
| Quote: |
| Personally, I think Jefferson is heavily over-rated. |
The more I read about Washington, the more I admire and respect him. The more I read about Jefferson, the less I find to admire and respect.
It should be noted that Jefferson had nothing to do with writing the Constitution. He was in France. He ended up supporting ratification because Madison convinced him to. |
Ya-ta, I am shocked that you think so highly of Washington. I'm wondering, however, if you agree with this part of his Farewell Address:
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| Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. |
I agree with you that Washington definitely had the right vision in mind for the new country. Too bad people cherry pick some words of his and ridicule or ignore the others.
Not trying to hijack the thread, just askikng your opinion Ya-ta. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta, I am shocked that you think so highly of Washington. I'm wondering, however, if you agree with this part of his Farewell Address: |
I don't know why anyone would be shocked. It's too bad he was turned into a monument that hides the man behind the image, but it should not diminish appreciation for his awesome achievements. Had people listened to him, there would have been no Civil War.
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| And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. |
He was a man of his time, what can I say? He says reason and experience lead him to believe it couldn't be done. He's entitled to his opinion. He was not a religious man himself, but went to church regularly because it set a good example. He was deeply interested in the idea of public virtue, an idea which has gone out of fashion, but maybe could bare a revival. |
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stevemcgarrett

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Ya Ta Boy:
Washington was a Deist, as were most of the founding fathers. He was therefore religious beyond just role playing.
And God help us if we should ever become secular humanists to the extent of much of Western Europe (and parts of Canada and New Zealand). |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005 Location: Easy Street.
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
It is interesting what foreigners think about the US election. Admit it or not (and many foreigners HATE to admit it) the US represents leadership in many areas, not just war not/war.
When I was a sophomore in high school, I had to do a report on Woodrow Wilson. I was stunned when I came across information reporting how peasants in French and Italian villages pasted his picture to their walls. He (and America) represented ideals above the usual political offerings of a paved road here and a sewer there.
Yeah, the Europeans, some of the Canadians and the chronically anti-Americans of whatever nationality cringe, whine and throw tantrums because it is us and not them who do it, but we do represent the symbol of the best that humans can aspire to. |
No offense, but only an American could say that with a straight face.
In Wilson's time America indeed represented hope and perhaps still does to a reduced extent; but mainly America represents the leadership of the modern world.
Personally I like Obama, I wouldn't mind Hillary either but I think she's a gift to the Republicans, and I also like what I hear about Ron Paul! |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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No offense, but only an American could say that with a straight face.
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Hope you didn't hurt your teeth while gnashing. |
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