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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
| Why is it 'humane' to feed and clothe him at the expense and RISK of the general public? |
A study showed it is MORE expensive to execute a convict than to incarcerate him for life. |
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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
I don't understand the "How does executing the guy help the baby?" line of reasoning. How does putting him in jail help the baby? Is the goal of punishment to help the victim? It's too late to stop this crime from happening. It is not too late to try and stop other crimes like it from happening.
I believe the basic reasons for punishment are 1. Remove criminal from society as to ensure he doesn't repeat his crime. 2. Retribution- give the criminal what he deserves. 3. Reformation - try to reform the criminal into a law-abiding citizen. 4. Punishment as a deterent - try to prevent crimes from occuring by promising punishment when laws are broken.
Some here seem to think only reason 1 matters and possibly 3 in cases not as sick as this one. |
1 I agree with. If found guilty, he should go to prison.
2 Retribution: Prison is the retribution.
3 This is the problem with prisons as they don't actually reform people, but it definitly should be a major emphasis.
4 Punishment as a detterent just does not work in cases like this, and arguably not at all.
IMO the main aim is to remove dangerous people from society. Violent punishments are inappropriate and barbaric.
Put this guy away for life. Help the victim. Don't forget about the victim and in 20 years have him/her commiting similar crimes. There is a circular aspect to this, which the 'string him up' crew do not seem to acknowledge.
The point is, is that the victim should be the focus here. Stringing up the guy does not help the victim.
Put these guys in prison. Help them.
Do not put non violent, low end criminals in prison. Save money. Use that money for the victims of violent/sexual crime. Make sure these people do not fall through the cracks and come back and do the same crimes. There is way too much concentration on the punishment instead of the victim.
And another thing. Since when did it become an accepted part of life that people who go to prison will be abused physically, mentally and sexually? This is not ok. Its a pity all people want to hear from politicians is how they will be tough on crime and not how they will actually help people caught in these situations. |
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crusher_of_heads
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Location: kimbop and kimchi for kimberly!!!!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| crusher_of_heads wrote: |
| Put him in general population and that will take care of him. |
Wow, how civilized of you. |
My condolences to you and the rest of the Dahmer family. |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
| Why is it 'humane' to feed and clothe him at the expense and RISK of the general public? |
A study showed it is MORE expensive to execute a convict than to incarcerate him for life. |
Just to back you up...
http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/deathpenalty.htm
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What many Americans do not realize is that the death penalty is more costly than incarcerating an inmate for life. A murder trial takes much longer when the death penalty is being pursued. The taxpayer is paying the salaries of the judges, prosecutors, public defenders, court officials, and the cost of briefs. "A 1982 study showed that if the death penalty were reintroduced in the state of New York, the cost of the capital trial alone would be more then double the cost of a life term in prison" (Bright, 1996). The Duke University study estimated that a death penalty trial takes about four times longer than a non-capital murder trial (Bright, 1996). And, of course, not every death penalty trial results in a death sentence. Based on the experience in North Carolina, the authors found that less than a third of capital trials resulted in a death sentence.
Florida spent an estimated $57 million on the death penalty from 1973 to 1988 to achieve 18 executions - that is an average of $3.2 million per execution (Miami Herald). It costs six times more to execute a person in Florida than to incarcerate a prisoner for life with no parole. In Texas, a death penalty case costs an average of $2.3 million, about three times the cost of imprisoning someone in a single cell at the highest security level for 40 years (Dallas Morning News). The death penalty costs California $90 million annually beyond the ordinary costs of the justice system - $78 million of that total incurred at the trial level (Sacramento Bee). The New York Department of Correctional Services estimated that implementing the death penalty would cost the state about $118 million annually. To illustrate the cost, it is estimated that the money it would take to implement the death penalty in New York for just five years would be enough to fund 250 additional police officers and build prisons for 6,000 inmates (Lacayo, 1987). |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Atavistic wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| nicholas_chiasson wrote: |
| Why is it 'humane' to feed and clothe him at the expense and RISK of the general public? |
A study showed it is MORE expensive to execute a convict than to incarcerate him for life. |
Just to back you up...
http://www.uvm.edu/~vlrs/doc/deathpenalty.htm |
Thanks for saving me the trouble. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
| Obviously, wrongful convictions are a powerful argument against capital punishment, but it's an argument I reject. |
Mighty fine thing, then, that you weren't involved when I was falsely accused of a serious crime some years ago.
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| However in my view, the benefits that come via executing subhumans |
Subhumans? Yet another reason why it's a good thing you're not intimately involved with the judicial system. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| crusher_of_heads wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| crusher_of_heads wrote: |
| Put him in general population and that will take care of him. |
Wow, how civilized of you. |
My condolences to you and the rest of the Dahmer family. |
I wasnt sure before, but now I am firmly convinced you are naught but a jackass. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Firstly, the issue of whether retribution is good is subjective. There's no way of settling the matter. Pro-capital punishment advocates and anti-capital punishment advocates appear to agree that retribution is good, since both advocate either prison (arguably more painful than death) or death. In rare circumstances, like this, I advocate unequivocally death. There are some people on this planet that simply do not deserve to exist. Existence - human existence - is a privilege, not a right. If you rape a baby, you violate your privilege, and you die. We killed thousands of innocent civilians in our many wars, so why not kill a baby rapist? Again, it's subjective and there can be no consensus.
Secondly...
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| A study showed it is MORE expensive to execute a convict than to incarcerate him for life. |
That's a criticism of a certain system, not a criticism of execution per se.
Thirdly....
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First of all, we don't know if he's guilty. In fact, he may have actually done this horrific act and still not be guilty - by reason of insanity. It is pretty safe to say that this man is not "normal." In addition to possibly being schizophrenic, he may be mentally retarded, or have been drugged, drunk, or on some medication which can cause psychosis. In any of those cases, treatment or support could prevent another such occurrence.
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These things will be scrutinized at trial under criminal law. You say "we don't know he's guilty" which is obviously true yet submit numerous "could be" possibilities.....all of which will be brought before the law and, assuming he pleads not-guilty, a jury of his peers also.
Fourthly....
| bacasper wrote: |
Furthermore, this crime did not involve a death. To execute someone who hasn't himself taken a life has always been anathema to our system of jurisprudence.
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I advocate that killing is not the only capital offence. It depends entirely on the heinousness. There are some appalling crimes that don't involve murder.
Lastly and leastly, the war on drugs must end right this second, which will remove the prison population problem. Consequently, criminals will be quite tiny in number. The crimes that are heinous enough to warrant execution will be....well, I suppose quite high, since there are hundreds of truly vile crimes annually.
Essentially, I advocate a wholesale change in the system....destroy the war on drugs, execute subhuman feces. |
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crusher_of_heads
Joined: 23 Feb 2007
Location: kimbop and kimchi for kimberly!!!!
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| crusher_of_heads wrote: |
| CentralCali wrote: |
| crusher_of_heads wrote: |
| Put him in general population and that will take care of him. |
Wow, how civilized of you. |
My condolences to you and the rest of the Dahmer family. |
I wasnt sure before, but now I am firmly convinced you are naught but a jackass. |
How rude!-sarcasm answered with sarcasm.
Putting the man who raped the girl in question not only is not state sponsored execution, it saves money for all involved. It's a win win situation, except for centralcali is garbage. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| If he's killed, he can't suffer. Castration for sex offenders and nothing less. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
| If he's killed, he can't suffer. Castration for sex offenders and nothing less. |
seriously? |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: |
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Yup.
Once someone like this is removed from the world, his problems are over. His victims will continue to suffer long after he's gone. I'd prefer a system of appropriate suffering in return.
So, sex offenders get castrated at the start of their life-long suffering. |
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butlerian
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
Yup.
Once someone like this is removed from the world, his problems are over. His victims will continue to suffer long after he's gone. I'd prefer a system of appropriate suffering in return.
So, sex offenders get castrated at the start of their life-long suffering. |
I agree if you could be sure that the person was actually guilty. But, in the real world, 100% certainly is never assured - sometimes far from assured - and so irreparable damage has to be prevented. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
Yup.
Once someone like this is removed from the world, his problems are over. His victims will continue to suffer long after he's gone. I'd prefer a system of appropriate suffering in return.
So, sex offenders get castrated at the start of their life-long suffering. |
Congratulations on being further Right than me! 
Really, have you any idea how barbarous your view is and how it is totally irreconcilable with all your other beliefs?
I advocate killing him. That's liberal in comparison to you. Castrating him and letting him live is needlessly cruel. We need subhumans to not exist, not to exist yet bereft of genitalia. |
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tzechuk
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:46 am Post subject: |
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I feel physically ILL reading this.
Poor, poor baby. I would want to murder him if I were the mother. |
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