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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
| Perhaps Swiss pediatricians are more closely regulated than their American counterparts, I don't know. |
Then why do a study on people who have little choice? Your claim was why do so many doctors (not just american doctors) come out against vaccination. I showed you a study that when we look at a given population of doctors, the vast majority vaccinate. You've moved the goalpost now based on speculation. Shall we now say only the opinions of american doctors are valid in this debate and the opinion of swiss or foreign doctors are not? Because by waving away my counter evidence, that's what you're setting up.
That's not entirely correct. I asked why are so many doctors warning about the dangers of vaccination. I didn't say they were not performing vaccinations, just voicing concerns to the risks.
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GRAPHICAL EVIDENCE SHOWS VACCINES DIDN'T SAVE US
(click on the link to see the graphs) |
Did you actually read what I wrote about those other graphs you linked to? No one argues that improved medical care and sanitation does not have a great role too. So, 10,000 children are no longer dying but 500 children are dying. If you introduce vaccinations you can further reduce the death rate.
Regarding those links below, again, what do you find compelling about them?
What I find compelling about them is that they are so much easier to read and understand than anything you post. This is not meant as a slight against you, more against myself. Put simply, if you can't explain it in a way even a putz like me can understand, then you can expect more and more people to simply not get your explanations.
Again, I've presented you with two papers (I can find more) that directly counter your claim that vaccines are not proven effective. Are you going to challenge those papers or are you going to simply ignore any evidence that might falsify your position because it falsifies your position? You never even defined your goalpost for what evidence do you require to demonstrate a vaccine IS effective? Made up your mind, huh, and you're just looking for web sites to confirm your bias? Not very scientific. |
If these were "My" claims, I'd say you have a point. I didn't put up all those web sites. Where are people getting the figures and information they quote in those sites? The answer is, there are a lot of doctors and health care practitioners putting them up. So if these people are putting up this information, we should ask WHY. And don't tell me these guys are all motivated by profit. That's way too easy an answer. And don't tell me all these doctors don't understand what they are doing. I'm sure they are all quite aware of what the WHO and the CDC are saying .... and doing.
I know you are well able to make me look like the fool that I am, you have done so numerous times on these forums. Good for you.
One more time won't make much difference either way.
But I digress to mention a video that you might find interesting.
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY
It concerns global population and exponential growth and limited resources. Perhaps ideas of population control are things discussed many years ago in secret meetings of global leaders. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
I know you are well able to make me look like the fool that I am, you have done so numerous times on these forums. |
You're doing a gooda job of this yourself.
| some waygug-in wrote: |
But I digress to mention a video that you might find interesting.
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY
It concerns global population and exponential growth and limited resources. Perhaps ideas of population control are things discussed many years ago in secret meetings of global leaders. |
Does it concern how wasting time on arguing with the anti-vac community is costing lives? |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Watch it and see. It concerns mathematics. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| Why do so many doctors (not just american doctors) come out against vaccination. |
If there are 100,000 doctors in the world and 100 are against vaccination, is that "many"? If I have 100 people at my birthday party, that's "many". But not "many" relative to the number of doctors in the world. No?
And why? Hmmm. Did you consider those "doctors" against vaccination have something to sell you like Horrowitz?
| Quote: |
| So if these people are putting up this information, we should ask WHY. And don't tell me these guys are all motivated by profit. That's way too easy an answer. |
Isn't that their claim why the medical establishment is behind vaccinations? Don't they chant big pharma big pharma?
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| It concerns global population and exponential growth and limited resources. Perhaps ideas of population control are things discussed many years ago in secret meetings of global leaders. |
Look where you live. Korea. Back in the 70s Korea was big on population control. Now they want Koreans to have more babies. What happened? Korea got rich. People started passing on babies to own a car. The best way to control the population is letting nations get rich. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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If we had infinite resources to play around with, you would be right.
It's not just about population, it's about exponential population growth on a planet with limited resources.
Yes, Koreans are richer, they are having fewer babies, they are also using way more resources than they used to. Copying the North American model is not the way we should be going. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| Watch it and see. It concerns mathematics. |
Unless it's funny I usually pass on youtube. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
If we had infinite resources to play around with, you would be right.
It's not just about population, it's about exponential population growth on a planet with limited resources.
Yes, Koreans are richer, they are having fewer babies, they are also using way more resources than they used to. Copying the North American model is not the way we should be going. |
We will never run out of oil:
http://economics.about.com/cs/macroeconomics/a/run_out_of_oil.htm
Or any resource for that matter. Understand the famous Simon Ehrlich wager.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon-Ehrlich_wager
A resource gets expensive, humans figure out a way to use something else. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting. I hadn't seen those before.
Thank you for bringing them to my attention.
Here's one for you as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_security
and another:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation
Another study by the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) called the Global Environment Outlook [4] which involved 1,400 scientists and took five years to prepare comes to similar conclusions. It "found that human consumption had far outstripped available resources. Each person on Earth now requires a third more land to supply his or her needs than the planet can supply." It faults a failure to "respond to or recognise the magnitude of the challenges facing the people and the environment of the planet... 'The systematic destruction of the Earth's natural and nature-based resources has reached a point where the economic viability of economies is being challenged - and where the bill we hand to our children may prove impossible to pay'... The report's authors say its objective is 'not to present a dark and gloomy scenario, but an urgent call to action'. It warns that tackling the problems may affect the vested interests of powerful groups, and that the environment must be moved to the core of decision-making... '[46]
We could argue all day about what different studies say or don't say, the point is people in positions of power take this stuff very seriously and from the documents Horowitz cites in his research they have been for a long, long time.
http://hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jinouy01/vaccine/unclean2.html
The oral polio, hepatitis B, and anthrax vaccines were particularly
troubling to Dr. Horowitz and affiliated anti-vaccine activists due to
incriminating government documents published in his bestselling book
Emerging Viruses: AIDS & Ebola Press, 1997; 1-888-508-4787). The text,
credited in February, 1999 as among the most persuasive risk awareness
works supporting the anti-vaccination movement during a meeting of the
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Advisory Committee on
Immunization Practices by Dr. Robert Chen, an invited speaker, was
reviewed by Dr. Satcher, who then invited Dr. Horowitz to a meeting to
"discuss issues of mutual concern." The meeting was later cancelled by the
surgeon general, then CDC director. |
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