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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Desultude:
1. I believe Adventurer was making a joke about mexico, spain, and whatnot.
2. Dont generalize free trade supporters please. Most economists that support free-trade also fully support free open labor markets. Anyone that has taken macro econ knows the relevance and role of labor when it comes to open, free markets. And I think the fact that free trade supporters such as John McCain are also pretty "liberal" towards immigration policy reflects that.*
*Not an endorsement of McCain in any way. Just the first GOP politician that popped into my head as an example. |
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Cornfed
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And I think the fact that free trade supporters such as John McCain are also pretty "liberal" towards immigration policy reflects that. |
Yeah, I remember reading about where he declared to a crowd of impoverished Americans that, as Americans, they were obviously too lazy to be capable of picking cabbages even for $50 an hour. What a asshole. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Cornfed wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And I think the fact that free trade supporters such as John McCain are also pretty "liberal" towards immigration policy reflects that. |
Yeah, I remember reading about where he declared to a crowd of impoverished Americans that, as Americans, they were obviously too lazy to be capable of picking cabbages even for $50 an hour. What a asshole. |
Here's the youtube clip. Doesn't look like he's talking to an "impoverished" group though.
While poorly stated and probably incorrect, his point is valid: Americans won't pick cabbage or do other types of menial work (although they certainly would for $50/hour). |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
My basic argument on immigration is this-
In a free market economy, both capital and labor must be free to travel and choose which situation suits them best. Free market supporters (I think the same free market supporters who are supporting the $700 billion socialist bailout for Wall Street) seem to have missed this point. Free capital, free labor, open markets. This is the bedrock of market capitalism. |
Free market supporters ARE for open immigration! But free market supporters recognize its the closed economy that is creating much of the problem.
| Milton Friedman wrote: |
| It's just obvious that you can't have free immigration and a welfare state |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:11 am Post subject: |
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I was partially joking and partially serious about those who talk about California, Texas, and Arizona were for Mexico. By the time the US took those areas, Mexico, as a state, was only a few decades old. We know that to be true. Actually, some in the U.S. were thinking of annexing Mexico, but because that would have entitled having so many non-Caucasians and Spanish speakers they decided against it and kept the areas that didn't have so many Hispanics.
I am not for open borders. People should be treated in the same manner basically. You should have to apply for immigration just like everyone else. The business community has supported illegal immigration more than your every day American. The illegal Mexicans push down wages, and now Mexicans in Mexico are worried about returning Mexicans pushing down their wages. Can you imagine that?
Now, I feel for anyone trying to raise a family, and I know it is not easy, but isn't America supposed to have a government that takes care of its citizens? Why is that too much to ask? |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| desultude wrote: |
Mexicans stole Mexico?!?!?
It "belonged" to Spain?!?!
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That's what I'd like to know, too.
It "belonged" to Spain only after they invaded it and slaughtered the natives. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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Pluto
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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The bureaucracy surrounding our immigration policy is extremely convoluted and complex, full of red tape and counter-productive. While I think the security argument to protect US sovereignty and the territorial integrity of the United States are legitimate arguments, I think the larger issue is the bureaucracy. We must be more welcoming to foreign immigrants willing to contribute to the US economy in order to help us grow. There is no real way to measure the opportunity costs of our foolish immigration policies but I bet they are massive.
Bill Gates had a few good things to say. Link Go to about the 6:15 mark, but his whole testimony was rather impressive. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Mexico stole their land from the Indians, just like we did. So let's get off the soap box already. |
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gangpae
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| If the Mexicans are leaving then the recession has started. Hold on tight because the economy is only going to get worse. |
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ReeseDog
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Location: Classified
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Cornfed wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| And I think the fact that free trade supporters such as John McCain are also pretty "liberal" towards immigration policy reflects that. |
Yeah, I remember reading about where he declared to a crowd of impoverished Americans that, as Americans, they were obviously too lazy to be capable of picking cabbages even for $50 an hour. What a asshole. |
Here's the youtube clip. Doesn't look like he's talking to an "impoverished" group though.
While poorly stated and probably incorrect, his point is valid: Americans won't pick cabbage or do other types of menial work (although they certainly would for $50/hour). |
For $50 per hour I'd pick cabbages until Kingdom Come. Talk about low stress. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: |
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http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4731
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Reverse Migration Rocks Mexico
With the U.S. economy contracting rapidly, Mexican migrants are heading back south. But they're finding the homecoming isn't quite what they imagined.
�ngel Trujillo is just one of as many as 3 million Mexicans who some experts and officials predict will return home from the United States in the coming months. The economic crisis in the United States is already hitting migrant workers, many of whom work in tanking industries such as construction and manufacturing. Unemployment among Mexican immigrants was 9.7 percent in January, up from 4.5 percent in March of last year, and higher than the 7.6 percent for the United States overall, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Not surprisingly, remittances from the United States are also falling for the first time in the 13 years that officials have kept figures on record. In 2008, transfers dropped $1 billion compared with year before, and economists say that the effects of the recession are only beginning to be felt.
Mexico's central bank announced in late January that 20,000 of the migrants who returned for Christmas won't go back to the United States. Officials in Mexican states such as Michoac�n, Puebla, and Zacatecas, which send some of the largest numbers of migrants north each year, are predicting a mass return as more migrants give up on the land of opportunity. Fewer migrants than ever are leaving Mexico, too, according to the Mexican government, with the emigration rate dropping 46 percent since 2006.
Local and federal governments have made it clear that returning migrants are more than welcome (officials even hand out information pamphlets entitled "Bienvenido, paisano" -- "Welcome, countryman" -- to help the returnees). But the realities of Mexico's economy will likely leave some doors shut.
Having fallen behind by 200,000 on a promise to create two to four times that number of new jobs by this past December, the government of President Felipe Calder�n is not well placed to accept an influx of once emigrants. Mexico's economy secretary said earlier this month that "zero" formal jobs would be created this year. Although the Calder�n administration is investing heavily in infrastructure, the jobs created will only be temporary. Local governments, like that of Michoac�n, are appealing for federal subsidies to help spur growth of sectors such as agriculture and generate more jobs. They also want federal funding to help returnees set up small businesses. But officials throughout Mexico acknowledge how difficult it will be to absorb those who once left. Some experts and Mexican columnists warn that if the massive southbound flood of migrants does occur in the coming months, resentment could boil to the surface.
Jose Mendez Lopez, a 46-year-old Morelia resident who heads a construction team, is just one employer who will welcome returnees -- but will still give preference to those he knows. Unemployment is already rife in states such as Michoac�n, even before an influx of returnees. And because of the experience many ex-migrants have gained in the U.S. construction industry, Mendez says, they often ask for higher pay than local workers. He can only offer about $10 a day, a standard wage for a Mexican construction worker. If push comes to shove, Mendez will hire the people he knows. But, he says, "I prefer my team who has been here all along. They didn't quit on Mexico."
Returning to a land left behind poses challenges for returning migrants. In a city like Morelia, where many locals still wear traditional indigenous dress and some even wear cowboy hats, a Mexican who has lived in the United States can be spotted a mile away. The returnees wear clothes from stores like Urban Outfitters (and not the knockoff versions that are popular among ordinary Mexicans), sport new sneakers, and don baseball caps of U.S. teams (again, not the fakes). They'll shun straws that aren't pre-wrapped, and according to some local policemen, they are clueless about the "code" -- in other words, when to pay a bribe in order to avoid the laborious process of paying a traffic ticket.
Despite the barrage of returns late in 2008, the jury is still out over whether the predicted mass exodus from the United States will occur -- and when. Most Mexican officials, for example, are now dialing back their predictions to about one million returnees -- still a big wave coming. If the U.S. economy does go completely south, Mexico and Central America will still look worse by comparison. Migrants, advocates, and experts agree: "There will be ups and downs [in the flow of migrants heading north]," as says Martha Luz Rojas, an immigration expert at the Colegio de la Frontera Sur, located near Mexico's southern border. "But where else are migrants going to go -- Europe?"
And even if the "pull" factors drawing immigrants to the United States decline, many still expect that "push" effects could overpower its stalling economy. Drug violence is consuming parts of Mexico -- an escalating phenomenon that could spur more emigration in spite of the risks faced by migrants navigating a terrain that is increasingly controlled by Mexico's organized criminal gangs.
Back in Mexico for more than two months now, �ngel Trujillo is vowing to stick it out in Michoac�n, even though he won't be able to send his mother a few hundred dollars a week anymore. Instead, he'll help her rebuild her home and work in construction in Morelia and its environs when he can. He's working on picking up the local accent and slang again and trying to integrate himself into the community -- if only to help him get a job in construction that suits his qualifications. "This is my country," he says. "I'm sure I'll get used to it."
Others, such as Juana Pati�o, an engineering consultant who has been working in Houston for 10 years, aren't so attached. She came back this past holiday season to sniff out opportunities in Mexico for a qualified professional like herself. She was disappointed to find that the pay is either too low or the possibility of advancement nearly nonexistent. So Pati�o is returning to her adopted home. "I don't really like living there, but I'm going back," she says. "There are always more opportunities there."
Malcolm Beith is the Mexico editor at The News, Mexico's English-language daily. |
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4731
De-globalization continues. The 90's - 2006 were a historical aberration. |
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wesharris
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:00 am Post subject: |
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Alright hippies.
Here are some facts.
Mexican American War.
Mexico Lost.
Mexico sold MORE land to the US following that, US gained it through either economic or military force, the war was Mexicos fault. Mexicans were coming over illegally. There IS a system in place for immi in the US, as most other countries. To come to SoKo I had to go through immi . Why can't the Mexicanos? Why because we have some bleeding heart libbies in the US. Lastly, As citizens of the US we HAVE the RIGHT to being in the US, mexicans as NON US CITIZENs, do NOT have ANY rights beyond those provided by international treaty.
Alright hippies that is all, go back to the peace pipe, smoking crack, or what ever it is you damned hippies do.
_+_
Wes |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| wesharris wrote: |
Alright hippies.
Here are some facts.
Mexican American War.
Mexico Lost.
Mexico sold MORE land to the US following that, US gained it through either economic or military force, the war was Mexicos fault. Mexicans were coming over illegally. |
Alright redneck.
Here is a question.
Do you really believe the Mexican American War was over illegal immigration?
(Not that you had much credibility to begin with.
Redneck.) |
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wesharris
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Hippy the war was over land . Succession from the Mexican Empire by Texas, and the US acknowledging the new Texas Republic. Here you go hippy, and we prefer the term Rustic Individual. The only time my neck is red, is when I get sunburned, I'm sure the same applies to you hippy.
| Code: |
The Mexican�American War was an armed conflict between the United States and Mexico from 1846 to 1848 in the wake of the 1845 U.S. annexation of Texas. Mexico claimed ownership of Texas as a breakaway province and refused to recognize the secession and subsequent military victory by Texas in 1836.
In the U.S. the conflict is often referred to simply as the Mexican War and infrequently as the U.S.�Mexican War. In Mexico, terms for it include Intervenci�n Norteamericana en M�xico (North American intervention in Mexico), Invasi�n Estadounidense de M�xico (American[a] Invasion of Mexico), and Guerra del 47 (The War of '47).
The most important consequences of the war for the United States were the Mexican terms of surrender under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, in which the Mexican territories of Alta California and Santa Fe de Nuevo M�xico were ceded to the United States. In Mexico, the enormous loss of territory following the war encouraged its government to enact policies to colonize its remaining northern territories as a hedge against further losses. In addition the Rio Grande became the boundary between Texas and Mexico, and Mexico never again claimed ownership of Texas. |
_+_
Wes |
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