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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
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| By asking this question...aren't you subconsciously admitting that religion is simply a comfortable lie we tell to vulnerable children to make them feel better? |
yes! so I was just asking a question when is it ok to tell children a lie of this magnitude?
only when they are dying? or as long as it takes for them tomake up their own minds, like believing in SANTA or the tooth fairy finally they figure it out..
so is there an urgency to tell them the truth??
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I think Binch Lover has already answered this for us:
| Binch Lover wrote: |
| I think most intelligent people can tell the difference between a harmless white lie and adult delusion. My presents did (and still do actually) say "From Santa", but that doesn't mean that my parents continued the lie after I was old enough to realize that Santa isn't real. It's just a bit of fun in the family. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
No, I think lies and fantasies are all right for entertaining kids, sometimes controlling them, and teaching them to think critically. At some point a kid will figure out it's impossible for Santa Claus to do exactly what he's supposed to do, or catch his parents in the act. Why is it so hard for you to figure this out, anyway?
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hard for me to figure this out?? er?
moving on....
so brings me back to my questions if believing in Santa is ok for kids..
then why not believing in god for adults? I mean they have the right to believe and think what ever they want as long as its not against the law!
the whole point is to bring happiness right?
so why do Atheists have such a hard time swallowing this?
they go out of their way to bash adults for believing in god..
but most adults don't want to bash kids for believing in santa...
| sharky wrote: |
being a christian is a lifestyle, no one believes in god anymore, but , people are still connected to the values of religion. I would say Im a christian, even though, there is no chance on earth god is real. |
NO ONE believes in god anymore?? ummm you might want to ask the 5 billion people on the world that...
you are a christian?? I don't get it...
morally you want to follow their values?
or you actually believe in half the stories from that book??
jesus, a virgin birth, turning water into wine, noah etc...
thats being a christian!
there is no half half christian...either you believe or you dont!
what is it? |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| By asking this question...aren't you subconsciously admitting that religion is simply a comfortable lie we tell to vulnerable children to make them feel better? |
yes! so I was just asking a question when is it ok to tell children a lie of this magnitude?
only when they are dying? or as long as it takes for them tomake up their own minds, like believing in SANTA or the tooth fairy finally they figure it out..
so is there an urgency to tell them the truth??
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I think Binch Lover has already answered this for us:
| Binch Lover wrote: |
| I think most intelligent people can tell the difference between a harmless white lie and adult delusion. My presents did (and still do actually) say "From Santa", but that doesn't mean that my parents continued the lie after I was old enough to realize that Santa isn't real. It's just a bit of fun in the family. |
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yes I was just curious to see if all atheists shared the same view..
| Quote: |
| my parents continued the lie after I was old enough to realize that Santa isn't real. It's just a bit of fun in the family |
but believing on god! the line should be drawn becuase its not a bit of fun? Its just plain stupid!?
IM just advocating to each their own right? |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Children are different from adults. |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: |
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I would argue that many atheists get upset at religious people for the same reason.
Young children don't possess the reasoning and logic skills to refute the existence of Santa. They are not willfully ignoring all evidence that Santa doesn't truly exist. Their belief in Santa doesn't cause them to war or fight or try to indoctrinate others into believing in him. Children simply enjoy Santa for who he is, a guy who brings them presents. No harm, no foul. I'm pretty sure an atheist would have an unfavourable reaction to a grown man walking around pushing "santa" on people as if he were real.
Now when we talk about adults we get into another area completely. As an adult you have had the chance to get an education, you have experienced the world, you know first hand that you don't get shit just because you pray for it.
Secondly you have studied/witnessed some of the horrific acts mankind had committed in the name of religion and some of the real harm SOME religious zealots/institutions have done. This is where I think atheists go apeshit over people to chose to believe in god whilst having absolutely zero evidence that he exists.
I would imagine many atheists see believing in god as a sort of denigrating all that humankind has struggled to achieve through science.
I would argue that many athiests see religious people as weak and pathetic. Not many people like to be reminded of how unenlightened (in their minds) the human race still is.
To sum in up, without all the postulating above.
A kid believing in santa. Cute, part of the cultural tapestry we chose to weave.
A grown adult believing in a supernatural deity whilst having absolutely no proof of his existence. Mildly to intensely disheartening.
OR - YEAH
What racetraitor just said. |
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Katchafire
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Location: Non curo. Si metrum non habet, non est poema
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:32 am Post subject: |
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"As soon as a child can speak the Atheist will tell their children there is no Father Christmas!! No Easter bunny, tooth fairy and GOD!!"
The God part I can understand .. although I think a lot of parents who are Athiests, still provide instances where their children learn about religion - and what people believe in .. so that the children themselves can grow up beliving (or not) in what they want.
However Father Christmas, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy?? Where is the religion in that? (other than Santa coming from 'St Nick') why do you presume an athiest doesnt allow those same celebrations as Christians for their kids?
My parents were athiests ... we had Santa, Easter bunny (not so much - but celebrated Easter and enjoyed the festivity of giving and receiving eggs), and the tooth fairy certainly left us coins under our pillows.
How are they even related to a religion? I dont remember an Easter Bunny hopping about the bible, nor a Tooth fairy collecting teeth?
What a werid and random comment to make!
Thats like saying "If you're an athiest, you obviously don't like sailing - because Noah sure as hell did". ???? |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Itaewon guy, your argument might make sense if christians believed in Santa. An atheist doesn't believe in God or Santa, but they might tell their kid that Santa exists. A christian doesn't believe in Santa, but they might tell their kid that Santa exists.
I don't get your point. Do Christians know that Jesus isn't the son of God, but they tell their kids he is?
Also, as far as Jews not having any fun, I think you forgot about Chanukah. |
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sharkey
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
No, I think lies and fantasies are all right for entertaining kids, sometimes controlling them, and teaching them to think critically. At some point a kid will figure out it's impossible for Santa Claus to do exactly what he's supposed to do, or catch his parents in the act. Why is it so hard for you to figure this out, anyway?
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hard for me to figure this out?? er?
moving on....
so brings me back to my questions if believing in Santa is ok for kids..
then why not believing in god for adults? I mean they have the right to believe and think what ever they want as long as its not against the law!
the whole point is to bring happiness right?
so why do Atheists have such a hard time swallowing this?
they go out of their way to bash adults for believing in god..
but most adults don't want to bash kids for believing in santa...
| sharky wrote: |
being a christian is a lifestyle, no one believes in god anymore, but , people are still connected to the values of religion. I would say Im a christian, even though, there is no chance on earth god is real. |
NO ONE believes in god anymore?? ummm you might want to ask the 5 billion people on the world that...
you are a christian?? I don't get it...
morally you want to follow their values?
or you actually believe in half the stories from that book??
jesus, a virgin birth, turning water into wine, noah etc...
thats being a christian!
there is no half half christian...either you believe or you dont!
what is it? |
church attendance is declining all over the world- fact. Only is religious dominated usa do ppl pay so much attention to god. outside of poland and italy, no one goes to church in eu anymore. godisdead |
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Jammer113
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| What I don't understand is why Christians teach their children to believe in the easter bunny and Santa. I mean... for Atheists, it's all just one big cultural happy fest. But for Christians, it's worshipful love. Why do you throw the easter bunny into a celebration of your God's ascendence into heaven? |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Jammer113 wrote: |
| What I don't understand is why Christians teach their children to believe in the easter bunny and Santa. I mean... for Atheists, it's all just one big cultural happy fest. But for Christians, it's worshipful love. Why do you throw the easter bunny into a celebration of your God's ascendence into heaven? |
The first pope of Christianity was a rabbit. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| greedy_bones wrote: |
Itaewon guy, your argument might make sense if christians believed in Santa. An atheist doesn't believe in God or Santa, but they might tell their kid that Santa exists. A christian doesn't believe in Santa, but they might tell their kid that Santa exists.
I don't get your point. Do Christians know that Jesus isn't the son of God, but they tell their kids he is?
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point is this..
doesnt it go against the beliefs of an Atheists to believe in fairy tales..
isn't encouraging your children to believe in Santa just the same as religious people believing in gods? full of false hope!!
sounds hyprocritical to me..
| Quote: |
| Also, as far as Jews not having any fun, I think you forgot about Chanukah |
I didn't forget.. but they dont celebrate Xmas .. they refuse to...
becuase they DONT believe it!
why do Atheists celebrate it? when jews don't.. I mean If anyone is gonna not believe something and not celebrate something due to it being false, shouldnt it be the Atheist? NOW
nothing wrong with celebrating xmas as in giving gifts, and having presants under the tree.. but there is a HUGE difference to lying to your kids and seriously letting them believe it was santa who left the gifts
or telling your 5 year old kid that it wasnt santa, its me! and there is no santa, but merry christmas!
some atheists will lie to their kids.. some probably wont...
just curious how far some of your hardcore atheists go..
what is acceptable and what isnt.. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| The OP is a horrible argument, with more holes in it than I feel like counting. |
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Justin Hale
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Location: the Straight Talk Express
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
point is this..
doesnt it go against the beliefs of an Atheists to believe in fairy tales..
isn't encouraging your children to believe in Santa just the same as religious people believing in gods? full of false hope!!
sounds hyprocritical to me.. |
You equate telling kids that Santa exists (which is cultural and totally secular) to telling adults, with, supposedly, a more advanced intellectual capacity to a child, that God doesn't exist?
I still don't understand your point, IG (not because it's brilliant). In any case, this is very telling. You equate religious adults with children.
Do you seriously equate filling a child with the false hope that Santa exists to filling an adult with the false hope that he won't die?
| IG wrote: |
I didn't forget.. but they dont celebrate Xmas .. they refuse to...
becuase they DONT believe it!
why do Atheists celebrate it? when jews don't.. I mean If anyone is gonna not believe something and not celebrate something due to it being false, shouldnt it be the Atheist? NOW
nothing wrong with celebrating xmas as in giving gifts, and having presants under the tree.. but there is a HUGE difference to lying to your kids and seriously letting them believe it was santa who left the gifts
or telling your 5 year old kid that it wasnt santa, its me! and there is no santa, but merry christmas!
some atheists will lie to their kids.. some probably wont...
just curious how far some of your hardcore atheists go..
what is acceptable and what isnt.. |
I still find the equation with Santa and God, er, interesting....(IG, dude, Santa is usually used as an analogy against supernatural bunkum, not in favor of it)
Santa is something we tell kids because it's traditional and fun and cultural and - yes - secular now (vast majority of folks don't have Jesus in mind when they buy their mom some nice perfume for Xmas eh?). Telling kids Santa exists is cool. Telling people - child or adult - on their deathbed that they'll go to Heaven, to eternal bliss, is cool, because it comforts them.
When we are on our mother's deathbed, we comfort her with pretty much anything. I'm sure my mother will still refuse any Christianity thereupon. So will I. But when we are studying reality, we deal with what is, what simply is, not what is comforting to dying kids, dying adults, or comforting per se.
You're essentially trying to demonize atheists as non-feeling, as subhumans. You hate atheists with a passion I can only dream of. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Justin Hale wrote: |
When we are on our mother's deathbed, we comfort her with pretty much anything. I'm sure my mother will still refuse any Christianity thereupon. So will I. But when we are studying reality, we deal with what is, what simply is, not what is comforting to dying kids, dying adults, or comforting per se.
You're essentially trying to demonize atheists as non-feeling, as subhumans. You hate atheists with a passion I can only dream of. |
I was just trying to see where you guys draw the line and try to get an honest opinion on it.. and where you stand as being Atheists. I am not saying I believe what I wrote I used it as a way to get the responses I wanted from you guys..
I dont think Atheists are non feeliing sub humans! jesus I am married to an atheist hahahaa
not to mention a lot of my friends are I just wanted to know how far each of you will go.. some religious people wont abuse their kids and put them in jesus camps, others will..
you know what I mean? jews have no problems not letting their kids celebrate xmas. Atheists like Richard Dawkins doesn't mind questioning a preists faith and asking him for evidence and hurt the priests feelings and call him stupid, other Atheists might think well thats just rude and not really my place to say such words..
so when I started the thread I wanted to see who does encourange fantasy and who doesn't.. seems 100 % of you will happily celebrate xmas 100 % full blown lies and all, which I think is WAY COOL!
but I dont find it cool when you wont leave Buddhists or YOGIS alone for meditating and believing in gods , I have named these groups becuase their doesnt seem to be any wars or killings attached with them.. they bother no one and are happy to live their lives in this way... |
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red_devil
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Did you make this thread just because you were getting pwnd in mine? By the way if you actually knew your shit you'd know that the Christmas that is celebrated has little to do with your Christ. Certainly i didn't see a fat man in a red suit delivering presents to the people in Jesus' manger. Not to mention that most civilizations celebrated "Christmas" in its early forms much much earlier than your Jesus person.
Where does Dawkins "call Priests stupid"? Again, you know nothing about what you're talking about...not to mention the whole nature of this thread.
http://www.history.com/minisites/christmas/ |
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